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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
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PosterThread
agami 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 7-Aug-2015 6:33:42
#1141 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1716
From: Melbourne, Australia

@thread

I have to say that I am a little disappointed in Cloanto. Don't get me wrong, I love what they do and the products they produce, I just thought they would be much further down the line with Amiga Forever by 2015.

Of all the companies that operate in the Amiga market Cloanto is the best positioned. If they executed something akin to Valve's Steam strategy, Amiga OS could become a leading OS in a specific domain. Oh well

Last edited by agami on 10-Aug-2015 at 09:41 AM.
Last edited by agami on 07-Aug-2015 at 06:34 AM.

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kolla 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 7-Aug-2015 6:39:05
#1142 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 3064
From: Trondheim, Norway

@agami

What domain would that be?

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Dandy 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 7-Aug-2015 7:01:04
#1143 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote:
@agami

Quote:

agami wrote:

Amiga OS could become a leading OS in a specific domain.



What domain would that be?



The domain of hobby OSses...

Last edited by Dandy on 07-Aug-2015 at 07:01 AM.

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Dandy 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 7-Aug-2015 7:01:28
#1144 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

Double posting - sorry. Deleted.

Last edited by Dandy on 10-Aug-2015 at 08:52 AM.
Last edited by Dandy on 10-Aug-2015 at 08:39 AM.

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Dandy 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 7-Aug-2015 13:21:46
#1145 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:
@KimmoK

Quote:

KimmoK wrote:
@persia

>what advantage (if any) hardwiring to the X1000 has.

-Low latency between the host computer and xcore.



I don't think so, since they have to engage some protocol for communicating. The XCore doesn't have a proper bus, but only I/O pins which should be programmed in some way.



Quote:

A-Eon website wrote:

"
It's an event-driven processor, which means it can respond immediately to events such as external signals,
rather than having to wait on an interrupt. This makes it appropriate to true real-time functions. It has many input/output lines which are software configurable, making it ideal for ultra-low latency data sampling applications and extremely easy to turn into control hardware for... well, virtually anything.
...
This is the kind of arrangement you'd expect for a board designed to use Xena for hardware control applications, where all the control logic is performed in software by Xena rather than in non-reusable custom ASIC hardware on the board, or using tricky programmable logic via an FPGA or similar.
"



Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

Quote:


-Ability to build dumb prototype cards for PCIe, when xcore handles part of the debugging & control.



According to source which Michael posted, it's not a real PCIe slot.



Quote:

A-Eon website wrote:

'Xorro' will allow bridging Xena to external hardware for control purposes, to internal systems, or to other Xcore processors.
...
Xena has 64 of these configurable I/O lines. In the AmigaOne X1000 we have one quarter of these connected to the CPU local bus for direct communication with the system, whilst the other three-quarters are connected directly to pins on the Xorro slot for communication with the outside world. JTAG connection for control and debugging of the XMOS silicon is accessible both through the CPU's GPIO (General Purpose Input/Output) lines and the Xorro interface.




Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

Quote:


-xena might be able to communicate (+watchdog) the CPU even when USB is already dead, unlike xcore on your Mac.



You can do the same by putting the XCore into a real PCIe card, connected to the computer of course.



Just that no "real PCIe card" exists, where you can "putt the XCore into"...

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

Quote:


(normally, if xcore is put on motherboard, it most likely is used as programmable bridge chip, as an alternative to FPGA chip. It was said that xcore was put on x1000 motherboard for users to explore, but the idea is still handicapped by the lack of native Amiga tools. Similar to LatticeXP on SAM, IMO.
Old thread about ideas: http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=27379&forum=33#668515 )



An FPGA with a sufficient amount of LE would have been much more interesting and useful.



Apparently an xCORE implemented into a computer has advantages over FPGA, when it comes to using it for hardware control applications:

Quote:

A-Eon website wrote:

"This is the kind of arrangement you'd expect for a board designed to use Xena for hardware control applications, where all the control logic is performed in software by Xena rather than in non-reusable custom ASIC hardware on the board, or using tricky programmable logic via an FPGA or similar."

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He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
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Kronos 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 7-Aug-2015 13:40:50
#1146 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2615
From: Unknown

@Dandy

Quote:

Dandy wrote:

Just that no "real PCIe card" exists, where you can "putt the XCore into"...


AKA the same situation the XORRO/XENA stuff is in the A1X1k....

Read, noone bothered to develop anything with both concepts as they simple are more brainfarts than concepts.

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Dandy 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 7-Aug-2015 13:51:47
#1147 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@Thorham

Quote:

Thorham wrote:
To Dandy:

Let me put it this way: AOS is fine for what it is, and it allows people to use their Amigas properly (including myself). Nothing wrong with that.



Fully agreed so far...

Quote:

Thorham wrote:

The problem is that AOS is a dead end in terms of moving it forward because of bad design choices from the past that AOS is now stuck with. The moment you get rid of this crud is the moment you throw backward compatibility out the window. It's a problem that's exceedingly hard to solve if it's solvable at all.

So basically it's not so much about not liking AOS, but more about recognizing that it's very, very hard to truly move it forward.



That's why I asked myself if it makes sense at all to try to bring AOS on par with other mainstream OSses. I came to the conclusion that it might be better to use mainstream OSses when I need mainstream features, that AOS cannot offer.
Instead of mimicking what others already have available, the few developing resources we have in the Amiga scene should better be used to enhance/modernise AOS where it makes sense, e.g. by implementing 64 bitness and multicore properly, so it can utilise modern hardware and get the maximum power of it.

Regarding backward compatibility - I could live without it, if we had all kind of software available for the new system, like we had for 68k AOS.
But given that "overcoming bad design choices from the past" will most likely break the compability with the old software (as there is no-one that can re-compile all the old apps for the modernised system, not to mention completely new versions of the old soft), I have no other choice than insisting on keeping the backward compatibility.

Last edited by Dandy on 07-Aug-2015 at 02:05 PM.
Last edited by Dandy on 07-Aug-2015 at 02:04 PM.

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He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
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KimmoK 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 7-Aug-2015 14:05:35
#1148 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Kronos

>noone bothered to develop anything

For xena, one must take into account that someone must:
-buy x1000
-buy xcore development system
-learn to develop for xcore

And only then one can do some thing with "xena".

(I know Lyle Haze & a-eon are trying to find solutions for easier use of xena.)




I toy with the idea of a computer with a "GEEK PORT".
But I would make sure there are ways for normal users to use it before trying to sell it.

Last edited by KimmoK on 07-Aug-2015 at 02:07 PM.

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//
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Jupp3 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 7-Aug-2015 14:10:42
#1149 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2007
Posts: 1225
From: Unknown

@saimon69

Quote:
AROS is already open and available even for 68k but i understood people around here don't want it because is not teh real or something like that

Whether or not AROS exists, (classic) AmigaOS should be open sourced, as it's at least as significant piece of history as Apple II DOS, CP/M, MS-DOS 1.1 & 2.0, Xerox Alto, Microsoft Word 1.1a, Adobe Photoshop 1.01, MacPaint & QuickDraw and Deluxe Paint.

(Of course it would be nice if the license was more permissive)

And of course classic AmigaOS releases would definitely be more "historic" rather than useful, 4.x would probably have more or less the same practical use as AROS already has.

Last edited by Jupp3 on 07-Aug-2015 at 02:12 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 7-Aug-2015 15:31:03
#1150 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6376
From: Unknown

@Jupp3

it would be very useful for both Aros and MorphOS because you could look at the sources and perhaps not use it but at least look how something was done and so improve compatibility and beause of this the sources will be never opened.

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Rose 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 7-Aug-2015 16:33:03
#1151 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 982
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

Quote:
I toy with the idea of a computer with a "GEEK PORT".


And this is how you make basic functionality costing $10 to other to cost $100 to amigans.

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lylehaze 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 8-Aug-2015 3:03:47
#1152 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2004
Posts: 1142
From: North Florida - Big Bend area.

@KimmoK

Wow. I skipped the first 50 pages, read the last few posts, and I see my name mentioned.

It's a shame that we can't compile Xena software directly under AmigaOS, as far as anybody knows.

I have managed to put together a XMOS compiler that can be accessed from any network-connected AmigaOS machine. It's not terribly fast, it's not graphically slick, but I can do the entire edit-compile-load into Xena-run Xena-edit-compile .... loop without ever leaving my Amiga keyboard.

It's not public because it's running on an Atom powered netbook, and that's not really suitable for running a public compile server.

It could be duplicated by anyone, either as a public service or restricted to anyones local LAN.

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KingKong 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 8-Aug-2015 8:07:01
#1153 ]
Member
Joined: 21-Oct-2006
Posts: 95
From: Germany

Maybe a relevant better CPU/SoC could be designed. More secure, efficient, reliable, modular (different models/variants could be simply designed) and with more computing power for many applications/sectors.

One aspect could be 48 bit than 64 bit, another aspect could be more and different cores in one CPU/SoC: some with more cache, some with little cache, some with FPU some without or shared FPU, different databuswidth, different instruction set and so on. This could be more efficient, because some programs could use more small cores parallel, some need much cache and a fast single core, some need FPU and some not. This sounds complex but such CPU could have less cache to safe transistors and energy or it could be a SoC with 1 GB RAM, so that external DRAM is not so often accessed. The design should be clear and modular, remember KISS. Better a little bit slower (but more efficient) than fancy extravagancies like speculative execution.

The simple idea is: Intel-CPUs must by far not be the best, there could be better CPU/SoC and if so, one can get an advantage over Intel, Apple and Microsoft. Amiga must not design/produce these CPU itself - other can do this, perhaps Freescale or in the future AMD (after bankruptcy and takeover) or (and I like this best) a group of states, like EU and/or BRICS. Eurasia could work together to build the best CPU/SoC ... and desirably/hopefully open source and open hardware.

The USA would likely fabricate their own CPU and Microsoft/Apple would have difficulties to optimize their software to both systems and such there out and AmigaOS could fill the gap. There will still be Linux but an open source AmigaOS could become better.

Open source is very important - no state in his right mind would use an unknown foreign operating system (OS) in military, infrastructure and so on. Only an open source OS could become a lasting worldwide success, because all states prefer either an own OS or an open source OS and would use/teach this at school also, it would be used at work and therefore also at home.

Therefore AmigaOS must become open source or it will sooner or later sink into oblivion. This is a very important point, one has to realize/understand. If you don't get this, if AmigaOS won't become open source, it is already as good as dead (and will than become open source). So it is better to release AmigaOS to open source soon, so it attracts more programmers. (all imho)

PS: some further text in German: Superchip und Superchancen

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wawa 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 8-Aug-2015 13:54:27
#1154 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@lylehaze

Quote:
Wow. I skipped the first 50 pages


no wonder. thats what this thread is worth.

Quote:
It's a shame that we can't compile Xena software directly under AmigaOS, as far as anybody knows.

I have managed to put together a XMOS compiler that can be accessed from any network-connected AmigaOS machine. It's not terribly fast, it's not graphically slick, but I can do the entire edit-compile-load into Xena-run Xena-edit-compile .... loop without ever leaving my Amiga keyboard.

It's not public because it's running on an Atom powered netbook, and that's not really suitable for running a public compile server.

It could be duplicated by anyone, either as a public service or restricted to anyones local LAN.


really admirable that a volunteer puts so much effort to justify an otherwise useless "feature". but it doesnt change the fact that either:

1. aeon approach on hardware design was completely planless as they included a device that seems complicated to wire up and to handle, especially given that it has no real function, no purpose it would be designed to solve, just to fulfill some esoteric expectations people might have towards what they consider to be "amiga"

2. the hardware in question has been designed for different purpose, given the technical demands it fulfills and os4 only runs on it by opportunity, and therefore isnt really expected to take advantage of all options the hardware provides.

admittedly, the first option sounds particularly stupid. so given that aeon, given previous experience with things like xmos and multicore support, has commissioned design of further hardware containing the same features useless with os4 as with their previous product, its hard to believe its only for fancy, whatever official statements say.

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pavlor 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 8-Aug-2015 15:50:43
#1155 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9608
From: Unknown

@wawa

Quote:
its hard to believe its only for fancy, whatever official statements say.


Do you know other PowerPC + XMOS designed for desktop motherboards?

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Boot_WB 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 8-Aug-2015 15:55:40
#1156 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2006
Posts: 1134
From: Kingston upon Hull, UK

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@wawa

Quote:
its hard to believe its only for fancy, whatever official statements say.


Do you know other PowerPC + XMOS designed for desktop motherboards?


No, hence the lack of development tools, environments, or demonstrated use cases for such a setup.

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OlafS25 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 8-Aug-2015 16:01:16
#1157 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6376
From: Unknown

@pavlor

why should this do anyone?

you can add XMOS simply by USB together with development tools for a fraction of the costs when using PC

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wawa 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 8-Aug-2015 16:26:53
#1158 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:
Do you know other PowerPC + XMOS designed for desktop motherboards?

not that im following tech news but xmos is definitely not meant for desktop use. also ppc isnt meant for desktop use anymore. so the conclusion is nigh that making dekstop systems based on these components doesnt make sense. so maybe there arent any such systems at all?

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pavlor 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 8-Aug-2015 17:21:56
#1159 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9608
From: Unknown

@Boot_WB

Quote:
No, hence the lack of development tools, environments, or demonstrated use cases for such a setup.


I pointed to wawa´s second choice:
2. the hardware in question has been designed for different purpose

It is obvious that X1000/X5000 motherboards were designed for desktop use (AmigaOS), so adding XMOS chip was deliberate decision.

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pavlor 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 8-Aug-2015 17:25:24
#1160 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9608
From: Unknown

@wawa

Quote:
also ppc isnt meant for desktop use anymore.


AmigaOS compatible, no much other choices left...

Quote:
so the conclusion is nigh that making dekstop systems based on these components doesnt make sense.


Well, X1000 was far more successful than Amiga Mini (built from off shelf parts) or any super-classic-Amiga-resurrection projects (Natami, Tina etc.).

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