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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
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Leo 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Mar-2015 10:55:50
#261 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1597
From: Unknown

When Steve Jobs came back in 1997, he said that:

Quote:

I don't think it's good that Apple's perceived as different, i think it's important that Apple's perceived as much better. If being different is essential to doing that, then we have to do that, but if we could be much better without being different then that would be fine with me.
I wanna be much better, I don't care about being different.

When the Amiga was released in 1985, it clearly was better. The hardware was better, and the OS was clearly ahead of consumer OS of the time. But companies caught up: hardware first, then software. Now, the Amiga is outdated. And it appears to me that people try to turn these weaknesses into being differences, and then want to keep them.

I know the Amiga won't be leading anything but its tiny community. But I wish it was driven by a little more than "being different"...

I'm not interested into a 64bit OS that can break at any time because memory protection cannot be easily implemented, or by some sort of AMP because SMP wasn't in Carl Sassenrath's mind in 1984..

I really wish the real advantages of the Amiga were used to create something good (I doubt better is possible, but well...). This would be different, because of this Amiga legacy, but also modern, because it wouldn't want to be different than Unix/NT that got a lot of things right... Because most great engineers don't work on the Amiga, and probably never did... The X1000 is just different (and slow) compared with todays desktop CPU. It's also a lot more expensive: what's the point of being different in that case? Compatibility you say? If the money invested in the development/test/production of these motherboards was spent on making the OS portable, this wouldn't be a problem anymore...

Datatypes were great (but limited and did not support streaming), assign were nice. Installation of apps was a pain, libraries & mcc became hell,... So there is much room for improvement. GUI has a lot of space for improvement too, and wasn't particularly easy to use. Maybe it's where the Amiga can improve, and be different.

Note: I have no Apple device at home, just so you no...
Note2: here is the video: http://youtu.be/GnO7D5UaDig?t=12m7s There are a lot of other real interesting answers

Last edited by Leo on 05-Mar-2015 at 11:04 AM.
Last edited by Leo on 05-Mar-2015 at 11:03 AM.
Last edited by Leo on 05-Mar-2015 at 11:01 AM.
Last edited by Leo on 05-Mar-2015 at 11:00 AM.
Last edited by Leo on 05-Mar-2015 at 10:58 AM.
Last edited by Leo on 05-Mar-2015 at 10:58 AM.

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Leo 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Mar-2015 10:56:40
#262 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1597
From: Unknown

Duplicate, please remove.

Last edited by Leo on 05-Mar-2015 at 10:57 AM.

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wawa 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Mar-2015 12:06:51
#263 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:
@KingKong: please, computer scientist, can you elaborate


please not.. (facepalm)

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megol 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Mar-2015 14:14:21
#264 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 355
From: Unknown

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
@KingKong: please, computer scientist, can you elaborate


please not.. (facepalm)


This. Especially as I already described how to do it.

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OlafS25 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Mar-2015 14:21:55
#265 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6376
From: Unknown

@Leo

I think there is still some chance if you create something that is easier to use than what is availabe and covers certain needs. Hardware is plenty today and you have modern and cheap options. FPGA based hardware would be something special but that is the execption. So hardware (except FPGA) no chance to differentiate. Graphic and sound was where Amiga was different. You have today lots of options too (cheap up to expensive). No chance either. Where you could "be different" is with special Applications and a optimized OS. What I for example did in Aros Vision based on Magellan was to create special filetypes with lots of display and conversion options. If it would be possible to create something that makes tasks simple to do where you need lots of steps and extra software on f.e. Windows. And when you have Applications that offer special features and are optimized for certain tasks.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Mar-2015 14:53:22
#266 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12856
From: Norway

@Leo

I think your right on all accounts, we wanted a nostalgic platform running fast on modern hardware, too afraid that we lose any of its nostalgia, even today people as asking does it run games form 1980's on Amiga floppy disks.

If that is what people want, then that is what they get.

On AmigaOS4 they done everything possible to make that happen, you have Petunia to run OS friendly things, you have UAE for everything else.

Same with MorphOS and the same with AROS (trying to support 680x0 Amiga computers)

You can't really make things better, if you're not willing to compromise and make things better.

I really believe, if we wanted to make things better we need to redesign the OS from top down, what do we won't, how do we get there approach, and then legacy support has to be dropped.

I think most the people that have used a NG operating system, do not dream anymore about running pacman from 1980's anymore, but being able to actually use the OS for modern everyday things, like internet / printing / games / music / video / file shearing, and we want to be secure while doing it.

Quote:
Datatypes were great


Yes it "were" great, today I find myself having to use libpng, because I'm not getting alpha channel when loading it whit datatypes, my impression is that little resources was used to improve datatypes.

Sad part is that many developers want to use datatypes, but end up using something else. Some developers tried to use datatypes to save pictures, but found them self not being able to, because datatypes did not support it.

I do not agree that datatypes has to do streaming and everything else, but it has to do what it was designed for, Load/save images and sound/music, or else datatypes becomes useless.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 05-Mar-2015 at 03:13 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 05-Mar-2015 at 03:12 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 05-Mar-2015 at 03:11 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 05-Mar-2015 at 03:10 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 05-Mar-2015 at 03:07 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 05-Mar-2015 at 03:06 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 05-Mar-2015 at 03:02 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 05-Mar-2015 at 02:56 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 05-Mar-2015 at 02:55 PM.

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Cool_amigaN 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Mar-2015 15:05:46
#267 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2006
Posts: 1227
From: Athens/Greece

@Leo

I totally agree with you but Apple had a market back then. It was a company with millions of turnover (even though they were on the verge of screwing things up for them). The Amiga market stopped to exist as a viable business platform more than 15 years. Perhaps there is room for 1 or 2 small players that will keep our hobby up and running but that's it. You can't be better without investing money. Even if you have the brightest ideas at some point you will have to invest. And investing in OS (with cutting edge features) or hardware development needs multimillion funding :(

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Mar-2015 16:01:04
#268 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1351
From: CRO

@Cool_amigaN

The problem for Amiga OS4 is that even when there is some investment happening, it's sadly targeted at making the platform even more niche. But as long as OS4 users are good with paying large sums of money for outdated hardware, that model will last.

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OlafS25 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Mar-2015 16:04:40
#269 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6376
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

it must be "different" in a positive way, you must do things easier than you can do on other platforms, perhaps specializing on a certain segment. We cannot be successful on the mass market without appriate ressources. If someone asks you why buying it (or download it in case of AROS) what would you answer? What is the USP (unique selling point) today except nostalgia or as a kind of proof of concept or to show "what could have been". What is the specialization? Artists? Musicians? From my view there is none, people are even dreaming of competing with Windows/MacOS or Linux. That is completely unrealistic. FPGA based devices (if not too expensive) are something for nostalgia, technical interested people and geeks. There is certainly a niche market for that. But expensive PPC hardware (or cheap used PPC hardware) no chance (in my view). Even AROS running on cheap and good hardware will not automatically become a success as long as software is missing that justifies to use it. The future will decided with the software. And to know what software is needed you need a "vision" about the future. And that is missing right now. In my view on all platforms.

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Leo 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Mar-2015 17:03:43
#270 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1597
From: Unknown

@Cool_amigaN

True: Apple had millions of users, lots of developers, and Apple wanted to make MacOSX a leading operating system: not only in a technological pov (first to introduce hardware compositing, lots of UI ideas that will be copied by everyone, including Microsoft with Win10) but also in market share.

And it succeeded.

Now, we have barely a market, hundred users, and a few developers, so obviously we cannot expect AmigaOS to become a leading OS. Does it mean we cannot make something great and innovative by starting from scratch ? Does it mean we should have running 68k apps as a target?

Apple added a 68k emulator and removed it when it wasn't needed anymore. Of course, MacOSX doesn't come with a 68k emulator. I wish they started ditching compatibility to implement modern features in a clean and future proof way.

UAE runs most apps just fine, and UAE already runs on AmigaNG OS. Recent PPC support for UAE even show how a fast moidern computer can already run PPC-legacy apps.

Last edited by Leo on 05-Mar-2015 at 05:28 PM.
Last edited by Leo on 05-Mar-2015 at 05:09 PM.
Last edited by Leo on 05-Mar-2015 at 05:04 PM.
Last edited by Leo on 05-Mar-2015 at 05:03 PM.

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bison 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Mar-2015 17:38:11
#271 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@KingKong
Quote:
How abaout a 40 bit CPU/computer?

That's not very binary, though, is it?

If we are going to entertain the idea of arbitrary-width CPU architectures, then I suggest we contemplate the possibilities of a 42-bit system. That would be the answer to... everything.

(If you think the size of a byte would be a problem, then you missed the point.)

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bison 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Mar-2015 18:00:43
#272 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
I really believe, if we wanted to make things better we need to redesign the OS from top down

I think the same, at least as a general principle, if not in the details. The bottom-up approach doesn't have an end case -- it is results in projects that never reach completion.

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Signal 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Mar-2015 18:06:53
#273 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 664
From: USA

@bison

Quote:

bison wrote:
@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
I really believe, if we wanted to make things better we need to redesign the OS from top down

I think the same, at least as a general principle, if not in the details. The bottom-up approach doesn't have an end case -- it is results in projects that never reach completion.


Yup!

4.1FE runs old software. It can be improved (probably) to run more old software.

So leave that era and move onto the next and include 4.1FE as a bonus with future versions.

These things dual boot, so no problem there. Once that is done we get back to what Amiga was
all about,, A Platform for creative people.

Yes, the cost must come down, and I'm sure nobody knows that better than the hardware makers,
but Amigas were never 'cheap'.

Now I have suggestions about which way to go for hardware and software but until the past is
only cared for, and not catered to, we are going nowhere and my suggestions are worthless.

My 2p.

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cdimauro 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Mar-2015 19:59:10
#274 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3751
From: Germany

@megol

Quote:

megol wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:
@KingKong: please, computer scientist, can you elaborate such 40-bit computer theory and give PRACTICAL examples on how to use it, and how an ordinary coder or compiler should deal with it?

Thanks


How about : compile your portable C code.
That's it.

Edit: But there is almost no advantages going to 40 bit processing - the power savings would be in the noise compared to a fully 64 bit processor.

Yup. And not only for that. Imagine what happens if 40 bit weren't enough because memory availability increased: you have design a new architecture with 41 bits, then with 42, and so on.

Anyway, the extra bits of a 64-bit pointer can be reused for very interesting things. Just take a look at what Apple did with it's A7 & A8 ARM cores.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 6-Mar-2015 0:22:06
#275 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12856
From: Norway

@Signal


Quote:
4.1FE runs old software. It can be improved (probably) to run more old software.


Well you can most likely squeeze a few more features into it, but there is limit to what is possible with this old OS design.

It will not be secure, it will not have stack enlargement, and this way, if we want to get back in the game competing with big boys, it has reached its end.

Quote:
and include 4.1FE as a bonus


Yes virtualization, is also something that is tricky under 4.1FE, so the Next OS, will need to also support hardware virtualization.

Quote:
These things dual boot,


Actually it be time to move to a different CPU type, but I think good idea to stick with custom designed motherboard, to limit the number of drivers that needs to be written. (And also to make sure the motherboard will be around for a few years, can't have new motherboard every year, when market is small.)

(Even Apple does that, and they are way bigger then Hyperion)

But here is problem, time need to get product on market will be about 5 years ++, we take in count time it did take for AmigaOS4.0 to be made. So if they started on it today, we might see it ready in 2020.

5 years without funding is expensive, well that is the reality of this. In that time you also need to have applications to sell, so else the product is dead before it hits the stores.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 06-Mar-2015 at 12:25 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 06-Mar-2015 at 12:23 AM.

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KingKong 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 6-Mar-2015 7:07:58
#276 ]
Member
Joined: 21-Oct-2006
Posts: 95
From: Germany

I think that it's better to improve AmigaOS instead of starting from scratch, because with AmigaOS there's already something to use and work with. Memory protection and SMP would be nice but that should be possible and then AmigaOS is good enough for a while. The next thing should be porting more software and thinking about a NG (new generation) Amiga (OS and hardware).

What could be super features?
- modular,
- real time,
- userfriendly,
- very secure with ECC and bottom up public checksums,
- chip integrity verification, for external hardware (SSD, USB) also (as much as possible, there could be cooperations with hardware companies).

That's pretty much and in a world full of backdoors, computer viruses, Trojans, etc. a real (even from CIA/NSA) secure computer is the new killer feature.

Another thing to think about is 40/48 bit computing - that could be an advantage in price, energy consumption and performance. With any luck no one else will venture this, because in view of 64 bit it seems unnecessary ... but some real good 40/48 bit CPU/system-design with state of the art production could very well be a considereable advantage - think of super computing at home and AI (well, not know but perhaps in some decades and bevor AI there could be VR). See (sorry, only in German): Lieber mehr echte universelle Rechenleistung bis hin zur KI and faszinierend.

Amiga should stay with PowerPC - support for more CPUs would be nice and should be done but AmigaOS must also have a unique hardware, a superior speciality ... and the base could be PowerPC with AltiVec and perhapse some further ideas/features (last but not least 40/48 bit computing).

Speculative execution is probably a mistake even it could gain some extra speed, because it costs more energy and transistors ... or in other words: it is inefficient and therefor not suitable for Amiga. An Amiga-CPU most be as perfect as possible, so remember KISS. Two things are very important: Performance per watt and security/reliability - it must be nearly impossible for the hardware to make an undetected error.

EPIC is a good idea. "... EPIC implements a form of Very Long Instruction Word (VLIW) architecture, in which a single instruction word contains multiple instructions. With EPIC, the compiler determines in advance which instructions can be executed at the same time, so the microprocessor simply executes the instructions and does not need elaborate mechanisms to determine which instructions to execute in parallel. The goal of this approach is twofold: to enable deeper inspection of the code at compile time to identify additional opportunities for parallel execution, and to simplify processor design and reduce energy consumption by eliminating the need for runtime scheduling circuitry. ..." (Itanium).

Well, that's my opinion and not to forget the first step: AmigaOS has to become open source.

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tlosm 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 6-Mar-2015 8:16:33
#277 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2749
From: Amiga land

@Leo

apple start have a better os only when they swapped to osx.
the previous versions (os9) was really crappy and dont much better then amiga os3.9...
what make amigaos stay in stand by all this time was no huge money investment, the loosing of the Amiga geeks in time and really few developers...
probably today we have a change with Trevor and he for sure have a plan for the immediate future.
something is change compared with past in this last months, everyone are feeling this changing in the air.

Last edited by tlosm on 06-Mar-2015 at 08:17 AM.

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Amigo1 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 6-Mar-2015 9:28:27
#278 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1582
From: the Clouds

@Leo

I bought an a1x1k to add my two cents for Trevor's little return of investment.
I think Hyperion and the developers know the OS has to be rewritten. But we all know it was contractually not possible to do, wasn't it?
With the small resources they have I suppose they do it little by little.

It would be interesting to start a poll to know what the community would prefer:

Block Os4.x in its status quo, no updates no bugfixes and wait 10years for a new OS (with the possibility of not materializing ever)
Or
Follow this path of slow enhancements (with the same possibility of going down the drain and dying of a user-loess death)

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phoenixkonsole 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 6-Mar-2015 11:56:51
#279 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Nov-2009
Posts: 1772
From: Unknown

@KingKong

Möp... baue doch ne Desktop-Variante von dem hier:

http://www.dwavesys.com/


bits are so 80s..... try qubits

The dwave 2 costs only 10Mio and is capable to Play with its AI 49 games (he learned by itself to Play them) from the Atari Age.

The learning capabilties raised in two years dramatically. he can also teach other traditional Computers and sensors to do their Job more efficient..

I doub't you or anyone else will be able to get on par again.

Singularity is near ; )

So please build me a dwave for 799$ : ) Call it Amiga and the world may know we are here.

Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 06-Mar-2015 at 11:58 AM.
Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 06-Mar-2015 at 11:57 AM.

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Signal 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 6-Mar-2015 15:00:59
#280 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 664
From: USA

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@Signal

Quote:
and include 4.1FE as a bonus


Yes virtualization, is also something that is tricky under 4.1FE, so the Next OS, will need to also support hardware virtualization.

Actually it be time to move to a different CPU type, but I think good idea to stick with custom designed motherboard, to limit the number of drivers that needs to be written.


Either you're not understanding me,,,or I'm not reading you correctly.(?)

Leave 4.1fe as is. Forget about running 68k software in AOSxx. Put 4.1fe on a separate HD or partition or whatever. You want/need to run 68k program then crank up 4.1fe, on AOSxx all programs are native or don't run. If 68k can be re-written for AOSxx... whoopee! Otherwise run it on 4.1fe after a re-boot. Do not cater to the past at the cost of moving forward.

As far as moving to a different CPU.
Keep PPC on the desktop for as long as practical, but the first jump to another architecture is done on a embedded board. Something more than a Rpi, but not more than the Intel Galileo.
Perhaps Acube could do something under 200USD once a CPU is selected that could become the next desktop CPU. Varisys makes some neat boards that could be used to bring AOS to a new CPU and have some fun with until all the grunt work is done on the OS. That way if it takes years to move to a new architecture there is no dead time for the community.

Ah, the future.

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