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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
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PosterThread
Epsilon 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 16-Feb-2015 9:45:18
#41 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Apr-2009
Posts: 457
From: Adelaide, Australia

@KingKong

I respect your opinion, but in my opinion AmigaOS should be left as a HobbyOS. Seriously, enjoy it for what it is. As much as we all like using AmigaOS, it will never be a mainstream operating system again.

To be honest, I prefer it that way - a system I can use away from my normal life that allows me to remember and re-live a time when computing was fun. Incremental improvements and programs by other passionate Amigans to try things out on it still, and not take it too seriously and expect too much of it while doing it.

Addressing your points about Open Source, and covered by others already:

Quote:
Ubuntu is open source at it works quite fine.


Not exactly...Ubuntu crashing on recent (and not so recent) Nvidia cards still happens in the latest 14.04LTS version too - I also experienced this problem on my own PC using a Nvidia 680GTX gfx card. Solution people found - don't run Ubuntu...source example:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2241037

In my case, I couldn't even boot the live DVD to install it on my Core i7 PC due to the Nvidia graphics driver problem. It required a command line installation and still not working properly after that as many others found too. I found another PC that doesn't use Nvidia gfx to run it on instead...it works fine on that.

How many thousands of developers Ubuntu and other Open Source linux variants have, and even they can't get driver support working well for common mainstream cards in modern PC's...what chance for anything else?

Quote:
Open source improves the chance for Amiga OS considerable.


Only if thousands of developers start working on it and rebuild it on a 64 bit base with new functionality and driver support comparable to modern operating systems. This needs hardware vendor driver support and backing. This is highly unlikely to happen, take far too long (the goalposts will have shifted again also) and also pointless since it will no longer be AmigaOS as it would likely break all backward compatibility with current (and older) Amiga software alienating the remaining user base.

Quote:
There is possible a considerable chance to make Amiga OS to an supersecure RTOS for military/industry and such an OS could be worth billions of Euros


Except of course that there is no security in AmigaOS and it isn't really that stable either due to memory management and some badly behaving applications. Why bother adding such functionality when there are so many other alternatives so much more developed that can do the job right now?

Quote:
Amiga OS can become the leading smartphone OS - that's just possible because Android and Microsoft kinda sucks and who would trust IOS or anything from them (USA)?


AmigaOS applications are not designed for use with touch - nor can they display properly on a smartphone screen.

Microsoft, Apple, Blackberry and Google spend millions of dollars developing touch based operating systems and touch optimised apps with an army of developers for smartphones.

Ubuntu also has a touch operating system for smartphones, developed for years - but who uses it? investment by companies and open source developers into rebuilding AmigaOS to enable such functionality and driver support makes no financial sense, with so many other well developed options on there market already.

In summary, I believe we should leave AmigaOS as an interesting niche HobbyOS - it is where it belongs, and is fun in that role.

Ok, my 2 cents worth.

Catcha,
Epsilon

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Britelite 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 16-Feb-2015 10:05:57
#42 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Jun-2005
Posts: 295
From: Finland

@Epsilon

Quote:
In summary, I believe we should leave AmigaOS as an interesting niche HobbyOS - it is where it belongs, and is fun in that role.

Couldn't have said it better myself. :)

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PR 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 16-Feb-2015 10:52:34
#43 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2004
Posts: 1962
From: Suomi-Finland

I think the idea about an Amigaclock would be great. Applications: The clock;)

Then behold an AmigaPhone. Guess what would be the main application?

So what do we have left? Got a really fast Win7 to do everything. Casion Databank and Nokia.

Reality.

The temperature was -26,5C this morning. I needed wood to heat up a bit more. (Electric bill 3600€ last year..)

The point here is what You need?

I would need the good old DPIV experience with good printer support and net. No viruses etc.

This has been asked, tried, payed, (even prayed), supported, donated for the last 15 years nearly.

I just wanted to download something from my e-mail. Then edit with Ppaint if can be downloaded via the non existant browser that works all around and after remastering printing with the LaserJet(2600n), in Colour and all in Scale. Mostly people want Retro but here there are Amigas in all-scale for that.

Easability and Virifree. We are adults (hehheh, not true) and try to do work. Many times have to access banking,tax pages etc many official sites and common formats. Not good with IB;)...


Everything in the stupid is in the net. We don't have that. Admit it or be square. Not even Morphos or Aros so there.

Last edited by PR on 16-Feb-2015 at 10:57 AM.

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Metalheart 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 16-Feb-2015 11:38:41
#44 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2969
From: Somewhere in the Dutch mountains....

My 2 Euro cents:

THE main things to get AOS noticed again are:

- SOFTWARE APPLICATIONS !!!
- Memory protection
- Support for all standard hardware (like printers etc)
- Cheaper hardware

Everything else will come when more users arive and cash gets flowing in the right direction.

Aditional things that might help are:

- Better PPC memory and GFX support for UAE
- Port to old Macs

_________________
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When its time to meet the maker
Theres a time to live but isnt it strange
That as soon as you're born you're dying

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Overflow 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 16-Feb-2015 11:46:17
#45 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1628
From: Norway

@Metalheart

Never understood the whole "old Macs" deal. I dont want to search ebay/used stuff for sale websites to get a computer. If the OS ever gets transfered to a different hardware platform it should run on readily available hardware.

I guess the "old mac" line is due to the PPC limitation....but ...ye, not very intresting imho.
Espescially not if you want to make "Amiga OS a leading operating system"

But I guess Epsilon said it best "I respect your opinion, but in my opinion AmigaOS should be left as a HobbyOS. Seriously, enjoy it for what it is. As much as we all like using AmigaOS, it will never be a mainstream operating system again."

Last edited by Overflow on 16-Feb-2015 at 11:47 AM.

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Manu 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 16-Feb-2015 12:06:13
#46 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Feb-2004
Posts: 1561
From: Unknown

@Overflow

Quote:

Overflow wrote:
@Metalheart

Never understood the whole "old Macs" deal. I dont want to search ebay/used stuff for sale websites to get a computer. If the OS ever gets transfered to a different hardware platform it should run on readily available hardware.


I can understand that perfectly, what I don't understand is the desire to pumping money in the lousiest price/performance ratio platform ever possible and place the fate of the whole OS on that.

Last edited by Manu on 16-Feb-2015 at 12:08 PM.

_________________
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hardware-intensive solutions. And they'd go faster.-- D.Haynie

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Metalheart 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 16-Feb-2015 12:59:39
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2969
From: Somewhere in the Dutch mountains....

@Overflow
The Mac thing is solely to get more users onboard to get more sales on software and the OS.

_________________
Theres a time to live and a time to die
When its time to meet the maker
Theres a time to live but isnt it strange
That as soon as you're born you're dying

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Thorham 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 16-Feb-2015 13:33:23
#48 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Mar-2014
Posts: 183
From: Unknown

AmigaOs needs to be replaced by something written from scratch, not become mainstream. Not that AmigaOs would ever become mainstream, of course. The whole idea is absurd.

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ferrels 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 16-Feb-2015 16:07:46
#49 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 922
From: Arizona

@KingKong



Quote:

KingKong wrote:
@ferrels
Quote:

ferrels wrote:
And why should Hyperion release any of its IP as open source?


Well, let's find somme arguments for them to release Amiga OS as open source:

- Do you want a good Amiga OS or what?
- Ubuntu is open source at it works quite fine.
- Open source improves the chance for Amiga OS considerable.
- One could make money with hardware and there's a chance to get public/governmental money.
- There is possible a considerable chance to make Amiga OS to an supersecure RTOS for military/industry and such an OS could be worth billions of Euros (i.e. these guys spend large sums of money for the development and can also pay Hyperion Entertainment). Why Amiga OS? Because it's quite small - you can improve Amiga OS to real-time and super-security but not MS Windows. Amiga OS can become the leading smartphone OS - that's just possible because Android and Microsoft kinda sucks and who would trust IOS or anything from them (USA)?




Here's an idea. Contact Hyperion personally and request that they open source OS4 and stop wasting space on the forums here. Your request will be rejected because Hyperion giving away their IP is the same thing as going out of business. Or better yet, just send Hyperion your money and stop talking nonsense. You could do this by agreeing to buy 500 copies of OS4. And to suggest that OS4 or AmigaOS could be turned into a secure RTOS is so absurd that I won't even begin to point out the reasons why.

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serk118 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 16-Feb-2015 16:24:01
#50 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Nov-2004
Posts: 685
From: London(uk)

OS4 might do better without the old & dead PPC tank engine...

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http://serk118.blogspot.com/

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serk118 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 16-Feb-2015 16:44:05
#51 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Nov-2004
Posts: 685
From: London(uk)

@Metalheart

Quote:

Metalheart wrote:
My 2 Euro cents:

THE main things to get AOS noticed again are:

- SOFTWARE APPLICATIONS !!!
- Memory protection
- Support for all standard hardware (like printers etc)
- Cheaper hardware



PPC is not cheap..

Quote:

Everything else will come when more users arive and cash gets flowing in the right direction.



pC user wont buy ppc hw just to try os4 so dont expect more user to arrive n nO cash.


Quote:

- Port to old Macs


Look at morphos and and rethink..

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http://serk118.blogspot.com/

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KingKong 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 16-Feb-2015 16:58:40
#52 ]
Member
Joined: 21-Oct-2006
Posts: 95
From: Germany

Well obviously should Hyperion Entertainment and some developers get money for releasing Amiga OS to open source ...

... but how much money would that realistically be? What do you think?

Would 1 Million Euro be enough?

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wawa 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 16-Feb-2015 17:06:59
#53 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@KingKong

Quote:
Would 1 Million Euro be enough?


what difference would that make? couldnt you post something that is worth to read?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 16-Feb-2015 17:45:50
#54 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12963
From: Norway

@KingKong

Quote:
The question is: How can Amiga OS become a leading operating system?


Don't think so.

Quote:
Amiga OS4 must become Open Source. That is very important because
- to get governmental money


What? What make you think the governmental will invest in this?[/quote]

Quote:
- nonprofit and public benefit to save taxes


Who has time to work for free?

Quote:
- to get low-priced help from programmers around the world


Putting a price tag on support might help how many are interested in paying 50 Euro a year for support, is it a working business model?

Quote:
- to qualify Amiga OS for high security applications in military and industry


There is nothing secure or modern about AmigaOS.
What type of smoke are you smoking?

Quote:
2. How can Hyperion Entertainment get enough money?


Now you're thinking.

Quote:
- sell nice Amiga DVDs with some extras, many prefer a DVD for installation


yes they need to generate profit, selling AmigaOS4.1 for nothing won't help in short run, but might get more people try out AmigaOS4.1. (they might be willing up upgrade next time around)

Quote:
- it should be possible to get quite large sums from the EU (at least in the future)


way should the EU be interested?

Quote:
- it should be possible to get some donations for the great vision of a successful Amiga OS surpassing Microsoft


I think we are in shift from desktop applications to more and more online applications, what OS you use wont be so important in the future, if its your Smart TV, Windows, Linux, MacOS, your smart phone or your Xbox or PS4, whatever. More mobility means more contenders, more of the cake has divided up into smaller profits for etch.

Quote:
- crowdfunding, crowdinvestment (i.e. Hyperion Entertainment starts a project, allocates money, hopefully makes profit and pays the investors their money with some bonus back)


There is money be earned from crowd funding, but really this is only minority actually donates, one donation once in a while does not make income to make living off. Open source ports, is not profitable, commercial products take too long to make, for too small community.

Providing community support for free, like Hyperion is doing, can be made into a one-year subscription model, that might provide a steady flow of income,

Quote:
3. Stop kidding with Amiga OS as a hobby OS - that's bullshit! Amiga OS could become a leading operating system - that must be the goal and nothing less!


Quote:
- Amiga OS must be user-friendly


For the most part AmigaOS is parity clean and user friendly, but it has become messy.

The boot presses has become pretty complicated thing.
The preferences programs have many icons that sets the time zone, a cleanup is needed,
There are too many printer preferences programs, should be only one.

Quote:
- Amiga OS must be real-time capable


No operating systems is, as soon as your using more CPU cycles then CPU can provides, things comes to a stop.

Quote:
- Amiga OS must have no backdoors whatsoever
Well to do that you need to separate OS from program, it is not practical.


Quote:
- Amiga OS must be as secure and reliable as possible


As must mush as possible at least.

AmiagOS will never be secure, it can be patched, it has Exchange and Input.device that enables inputs from programs to monitor keyboard or insert key strokes.

OS structures are open to all applications, at least most (99%)

The only way for AmigaOS to be secure is if no program was native, running in VM, where access has to be allowed by per application bases, like android applications running on Java.

Quote:
- Amiga OS must be small and modular, for example from a 100-250 MB base to a read-to-use 1 GB home/office installation


There are too many hardware comports to support, drivers counts for 50MB, the rest of OS is pretty small, what makes it big is all the contributes like Python and applications.

Quote:
- Amiga OS must be able to efficiently run Linux and Windows programs, see Wine and ReactOS


Are you crazy this things are hardly compatible, you will need to write emulator, and there are several to choose already.

Quote:
- Amiga OS must come with some programs most useres simply expect, like a browser, email, editor, file-manager/explorer (like Windows XP and Total Commander) and something like WinZip.


There are number of programs you can use already, its question of time and money. The question is it worth the developers effort, some asked for a virtual keyboard. I created a virtual keyboard he did not pay, so it's not released, and it also turned out it was not easy as first thought, in the end it was possible, but there bugs that I need help to make real, but showing the source code is not good idea as the code might used as a key logger. In the end it was just wasted time.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 19-Feb-2015 at 02:22 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 16-Feb-2015 at 06:09 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 16-Feb-2015 at 06:00 PM.

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duga 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 16-Feb-2015 18:11:36
#55 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 1-May-2012
Posts: 228
From: Unknown

1. Build a time machine.
2. Get some money (should be easy using a time machine).
3. Go back to circa 1984 and buy Amiga Corporation before Commodore do.
4. Do better than Commodore did.

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bison 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 16-Feb-2015 18:39:39
#56 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@Epsilon

Quote:
Quote:
Ubuntu is open source at it works quite fine.


Not exactly...Ubuntu crashing on recent (and not so recent) Nvidia cards still happens in the latest 14.04LTS version too - I also experienced this problem on my own PC using a Nvidia 680GTX gfx card. Solution people found - don't run Ubuntu...source example:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2241037

I wasn't aware of this issue, not owning any NVIDIA hardware, but isn't the problem with NVIDIA's binary driver? There's not a lot Ubuntu can do about that without the source code, which is why I never use binary-only drivers.

Last edited by bison on 16-Feb-2015 at 06:41 PM.

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Dirk-B 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 16-Feb-2015 23:11:26
#57 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1185
From: Belgium

Make a nano-amiga and link it to aminet.

That would be exactly the same as the modern app-stores.

Last edited by Dirk-B on 16-Feb-2015 at 11:12 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 17-Feb-2015 13:34:44
#58 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11351
From: Greensborough, Australia

@KingKong

1. Why open source? The top five in that list are closed source and the one specific example, Linux, has a low percentage. Also Linux runs on the most hardware. The odds aren't good.

2. By making deals to include software with the OS and licensing software. Of course you then need some good software on the platform. Plus a reasonably priced OS.

3. Well to compare you might as well stick it on x86 or whatever they call it these days. Being it is an OS comparison and not package deal computer comparison. But I agree with your ponts. The whole system needs an over haul. What's Amiga normality is not user friendly these days. And in fact can be the total opposite.

Last edited by Hypex on 18-Feb-2015 at 01:48 PM.

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Dirk-B 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 19-Feb-2015 2:17:08
#59 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1185
From: Belgium

Look back in history...

We where young when we had a game-computer...

Ok, now this may sound stupid but why not make
a dev-computer for the young of today. They could
experiment with amigaos and try out many free progs.

Infact we would need experiment-suites like we had
mecano, lego and electronic-boards back in the time.

A computer to experiment with, very sheep. Something
you should buy in a toy-store for very young nerd's.


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hotrod 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 19-Feb-2015 3:20:02
#60 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 3005
From: Stockholm, Sweden

@KingKong

I haven't read the answers but the way that I look at it AOS absolutely must have support for more RAM (64-bit), support for multiple cores, memory-protection and OpenGL. Also better support for printers/scanners are very much needed. When that is done it'll be ready for use by single users for more up-to-date games and developers can port/make more games, develop software more easily and it'll be a lot better for users as well. This must be the most important step because cheap hw isn't the only answer, it'll bring a few old Amigans back but not a whole lot more than that.

Step number two would be the hw-part. Some form of better availability for cheaper hw. I would love to have AOS 4.1 FE on my PowerMac but also WinUAE with support for more RAM would be an alternative. I still believe that the OS runing natively is the best experience though.

This would be the start... bring AOS up-to-date and make it available for cheaper alternatives. These are the two things that I know makes people hesitate when it comes to using AOS 4.1 FE. It needs to be installed and impress people so that it'll be mentioned in press, on you tube etc. In its current shape it's still lacking.

What's also very important and already worked on is applications that people expects to find for any OS. Be able to watch those youtube-clips easily (in the webbrowser for the first impression, they can discover smTube later), be able to fire up LibreOffice, be able to use torrent etc...

Then comes the part about the design of the OS. It also has to look good. The feeling is the most important part IMO (that's why I'm using it still) but it must look both modern and appealing. I'm very picky when it comes to how an OS look and for some reason I like they way AOS 4.x looks but there sure are room for improvements... there always are with any OS. Windows has always been strong when it comes to that part and it's common knowledge that people buy what is appealing to the eye, that's a fact.

How to make it all happen? Well... that's the tricky part.

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