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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
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PosterThread
terminills 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 14:39:50
#181 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1388
From: Unknown

@number6

That's the same thread NutsAboutAmiga accused Evert of not being Evert. :)

http://www.amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=37510&forum=2#703547

Last edited by terminills on 13-Sep-2015 at 02:40 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 14:51:20
#182 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5758
From: Unknown

@Trixie

what a silly and unrealistic idea...

it is more propable that hell freezes than this happening

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Trixie 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 15:00:19
#183 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 1939
From: Czech Republic

@OlafS25

Quote:
what a silly and unrealistic idea...

Of course it's silly - especially as we see that new trenches are dug every day. It's just amazing that people come up with the "let's cooperate" idea over and over again.

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Develin 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 18:24:52
#184 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2006
Posts: 428
From: Karlstad, Sweden

I cannot help myself from quoting a suitable song by Morrissey :

Quote:

"Sorrow Will Come In The End"

Legalized theft
Leaves me bereft
I get it straight in the neck
(Somehow expecting no less)
A court of justice
With no use for Truth
Lawyer ...liar
Lawyer ...liar
You pleaded and squealed
And you think you've won
But Sorrow will come
To you in the end

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recedent 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 19:39:44
#185 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Jan-2010
Posts: 225
From: Tarnów

@Trixie

I think we need to work out a good algorhitm of cooperation. Let me think...

1. You get an idea of cooperation
2. You get the needed permission to use somebodys code
3. You use the code

Now, that would be IMHO the most optimal order. Any other might not work as expected (especially all the ones, where number 3 is executed before number 2).

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wawa 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 19:46:04
#186 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Trixie

Quote:

Trixie wrote:
@blizz1220

The thing is that this discussion has grown well out of proportion. In the funny context of hobbyist operating systems such as AmigaOS and MorphOS, the appropriation of Piru's work is an act of gross indecency rather than sheer "criminal activity". Hyperion haven't handled the situation very well (and Ben's legal defence isn't helping: think of a bull in a china shop), but neither has Piru and some of his supporters. The focus should be on remedying the problem ASAP, not on constantly incriminating the wrongdoer.


perhaps the thing has grown out the proportion. but its entertaining to see how the offending companies are either called hobbyists or serious enterprises, whatever suits the immediate case.

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cdimauro 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 19:48:51
#187 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2096
From: Germany

@Trixie

Quote:

Trixie wrote:
@Leo

Quote:
Microsoft also reimplemented most iOS & Android APIs with Windows Bridge. I guess their legal department would have advised against it if it was illegal... This doesn't seem to be a problem to Apple

But it does seem a problem to the homegrown lawyers around here, apparently.

Or by lawyers that doesn't know even elementary laws?

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wawa 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 19:51:19
#188 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Trixie

Quote:

Trixie wrote:
@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
There is no need for AmigaOS to stay compatible with MorphOS

Please tell that to the people who start a "Let AOS, MOS and AROS cooperate!" thread every month


os4 isnt apparently compatible enough to amiga os to allow for easy porting of software. so this line has been crossed long ago. therefore too i doubt os4 header files or code are usually in their genuine form of so much interest to other involved parties. and what concerns cooperation, according to my observation, it is being carried out by people who are concerned with it and its being undermined by others no matter what.

Last edited by wawa on 13-Sep-2015 at 08:05 PM.

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wawa 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 19:55:38
#189 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Cyborg

i must admit that, like others, i start to like your attitude. i hope you keep it up as well as your position. good luck.

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cdimauro 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 20:21:09
#190 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2096
From: Germany

@Hyperionmp

Quote:

Hyperionmp wrote:
@cdimauro

If you believe you can approach the law in a "boolean" or even "binary" fashion as you are describing, you have just confirmed my point that you need suitable qualifications and experience as legal counsel to make these calls.

Even then lawyers might not agree or courts might not agree.

Hence the existence of an appeal procedure or the existence of a US Supreme Court or EU Court of Justice.

We weren't talking about law in general, but about THIS, YOUR case, which is quite clear.

Yes, I know that even when the law is clear, lawyers might not agree: that's why you're paid for. And courts also can decide differently, but fortunately there are some degrees to lower the chance of mistakes made by judges (which aren't perfect: they fail too).

Anyway, if there's something wrong about what I said, you're free to correct me from the highness of your profession.

However, note that just stating something only about your status of lawyer, and also claiming that a degree is required to understand something, fails on a very well known logical fallacy: Argument from authority Read: it doesn't exempt you to prove your statements.

In fact, another thing which is quite clear is that you're carefully avoiding to express your (modest) opinion regarding what, in the end, YOUR company did.

As other persons have remarked too, the question was NOT about REIMPLEMENTING APIs (read: NEW, NOT copied, work) OBVIOUSLY using the same interface, but about someone of your team that, AGAIN, did a verbatim copy of some other work, replacing copyrights (which should have some meaning for someone which pretends to be a lawyer), and rephrasing some other stuff AFTER that it was caught out (which is another clear admission of responsibility).

Even the EU sentence that you reported proves that you were, and are, plainly wrong, and that's without the strict need to have a degree in law.

So, either you haven't understood it, or you're just desperately trying to defend your company (which makes sense, of course).

BTW, releasing a product does NOT necessarily require a lawyer. In serious companies, there's a very strict process that developers (QA too) and managers have to follow for achieving that, using also consolidated tools for the task which helps A LOT to manage and analyze the changed code. Lawyers are involved IF AND ONLY IF some ambiguities/doubts are found, which is quite RARE.

I don't pretend that you understand it, since Piru's episode proves out of any doubt that either you don't have any idea about such processes, or simply that you were in perfect mala fides (read: you, as a company, did it intentionally). The latter is true for sure, because of the "fix" that you released after the first SDK release.

To conclude, instead of raising your degree in law, it's better for you that you give your honest opinion, without pretending to teach other people something that they might know very well.

Apologizing isn't a bad thing: it's the difference between an adult and a child which prefers to hide himself behind poor excuses.

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pavlor 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 20:28:07
#191 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9114
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Do you think Ben Hermans will even bother to read your comment?

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blizz1220 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 20:46:35
#192 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2013
Posts: 437
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Well I did study law for ten long years and and I can tell you
that it didn't make me smarter nor that being very smart or
creative makes memorizing process any less difficult.

You can find a lot of judges that wouldn't be able to install
Windows but might make a decision in very complicated IT
cases.They need to call court experts for that and tend to
abide by their opinion.With your level of IT knowledge you
could be called expert of that field.Why not put your knowledge
to use and educate people of the thread as to what happened
here ?

Please use small words so I can understand if you do

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cdimauro 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 20:55:34
#193 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2096
From: Germany

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@cdimauro

Do you think Ben Hermans will even bother to read your comment?

He already did it...

@blizz1220

Quote:

blizz1220 wrote:
@cdimauro

Well I did study law for ten long years and and I can tell you
that it didn't make me smarter nor that being very smart or
creative makes memorizing process any less difficult.

You can find a lot of judges that wouldn't be able to install
Windows but might make a decision in very complicated IT
cases.They need to call court experts for that and tend to
abide by their opinion.With your level of IT knowledge you
could be called expert of that field.Why not put your knowledge
to use and educate people of the thread as to what happened
here ?

Please use small words so I can understand if you do

I already reported my opinion about this case: it's a clear violation of the copyright law. You cannot copy header files (which IS code) neither documentation which are marked as copyrighted by the author. Not even rephrasing the documents protects Hyperion from the copyright infringement, but it enforces the criminal act.

What Hyperion should have made is rewriting everything with her proper, own, code and text, starting from scratch from the public interface of MUI4 and btree.

As already discussed, and EU court clearly exposed, you are allowed to copy an interface. Which is, AFAIK, what MorphOS and AROS team did with the Amiga o.s. APIs.

That's all.

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blizz1220 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 21:03:25
#194 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2013
Posts: 437
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Very good and clear answer.

So Piru's rights were ignored and then files were a little
modified and apology was offered.As for MUI and who owns
it and what it does I didn't follow that but what does that
code do in SDK ? I mean , what is the purpose of that code
and why couldn't it just be removed if time to re-write it wasn't
there for example ?

EDIT : this new code , not MUI

Last edited by blizz1220 on 13-Sep-2015 at 09:04 PM.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 14-Sep-2015 10:33:51
#195 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1041
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

Well, I'm glad this turned out to be a good thread with healthy discussions, since the issues are of fundamental importance. Aside from the expected posts from the kind of individuals I mentioned in the Original Post, we actually learned a lot.

Especially from Ben Hermans (we also learned that he was HyperionMP), who successfully taught us that some stuff are only copyright-able when coming from Hyperion, similar 100% comparable things coming from other entities are not, which of course is totally in line with "the double-standards Hyperion/OS4 doctrine" that are now more established than ever. We also learned that maybe Ben Herman's isn't that much of a trade mark lawyer he claims to be after all, his recent practice and comments in this thread totally gave that away, so it doesn't matter anyway. But this sure explains a lot!

Thank you megol, jorit2, umisef, hyprionmp, number6, itix, cdimauro, etc, etc for your valuable contributions!

I'll end this post by quoting cgutjahr: "One of these days I'm going to start a bounty - let's pay Hyperion and A-EON to stay well clear of the "AMIGA" and "AmigaOS" marks. That way, those of us who do actually care about the Amiga's legacy and what happens to it could finally let go, while the OS4 crowd can keep this travesty going without any of us bothering them. That's a win-win scenario, right?"

I'm sure many agrees with you, but don't wait too long! I have a feeling that those abused marks has had a trend of losing meaning for a growing number of people for at least 1-2 decades, and perhaps it's even accelerating?

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blizz1220 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 14-Sep-2015 10:55:23
#196 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2013
Posts: 437
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

And I'm still in dark as what the code in question was or
what part of it was code.I won't even bother following any
NG topics here.

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broadblues 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 14-Sep-2015 11:50:00
#197 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4411
From: Portsmouth England

@blizz1220

Quote:

And I'm still in dark as what the code in question was or
what part of it was code


The 'code in question' is 944 bytes of C header file containing 1 structure and 1 enum and a few comments, if you remove the standard preamble and postamble from it you get about 570 bytes.

They *should* have written from scratch, but if they had have done you'd still have a,tough time telling them apart with something this trivial.

The autodocs are a different issue ofcourse.




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blizz1220 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 14-Sep-2015 11:57:46
#198 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2013
Posts: 437
From: Unknown

@broadblues

I see , seems like a big deal , enough to make war about.

Nevermind that 3 x apology , if I was Ben I would sue for being
accused of "theft" in this case just for the hell of it.

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damocles 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 14-Sep-2015 12:13:50
#199 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2007
Posts: 1719
From: Unknown

@blizz1220

Quote:

blizz1220 wrote:
@broadblues

I see , seems like a big deal , enough to make war about.

Nevermind that 3 x apology , if I was Ben I would sue for being
accused of "theft" in this case just for the hell of it.


Discovery phase of a civil trial could be rather interesting for everyone.

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eder 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 14-Sep-2015 13:27:25
#200 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 280
From: Unknown

@damocles

Yes, but it could also backfire...

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