@iggy

Quote:

BTW...I don't appreciate either Raffaele or myself being slandered as "stupid".

You are NOT stupid, neither is Raffaele! As I mentioned before I *DO* like this discussion c.q. thread as it shows a healthy participation in the spirit of our small community.
Another quote from Albert Einstein: "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its abillity to climb a tree it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."

But as olegil rightfully remarked: contributions should not be judged by them being just "positive", but more by them being "constructive". And being constructive MAY sound negative, but need not be at all. Then there are the ubiquitous nay-sayers: filter them out, mark them and ignore them; they lack the vivid imagination required.

OldFart

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@olegil

>I have a hard time figuring out why anyone would NOT want this to be T2 compatible

That is a strong argument for using the southbridge way.
+solves at least audio and usbhub HW challenge / morphs them to a SW-driver-only challenge
+might not rise the cost either...

You might have got me "converted".

option1: SoC in 2* PCIe x4 configuration + southbridge (T10xx and T2081 pin compatible)
option1.1: mini-ITX ? (I..2 PCIe slots, possible mini slots, possible ePCIe...)
option1.2: flex-ATX ? (2PCIe slots, PCI slot, possible mini slots, possible ePCIe...)

option2: SoC in T2 incompatiible configuration (T1014, T1022 or T1042 pin compatibles) ...put ON HOLD...

Last edited by KimmoK on 06-Nov-2015 at 12:41 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 06-Nov-2015 at 12:40 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 06-Nov-2015 at 12:29 PM.

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- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK

T2 IS very attractive. The e6500 core is the only core Freescale shows in future road maps and its dual threaded.

Also, the price of the T2080 and t2081 is pretty reasonable.

But a T10XX board will be simpler.

I see the T2 as a follow up.

Last edited by iggy on 06-Nov-2015 at 12:59 PM.

@Raffaele, olegil, iggy, KimmoK, et al

Excuse for my lack of deep knowledge in current state of electronics. Back in the days, when dabbling my toes into the cold water of electronics and schematics, the most I did was creating a "fuse tester" and building an occasional power amplifier (about 30 pairs) deploying a pair of 2N3055's. The (heavy ply-)woodwork and the matrix of cheap and small loudspeakers came from my own hands. Bandaids were in short supply on a regular base. I'm a bookkeeper. Of sorts. And versed in applied economics. Currently doing some coding work.
Sofar my backgrounds. What I DO have, however is a sheer endless source of imagination.

From Albert Einstein (o, how I do love that guy!): "Imagination is more important than knowledge"

There's a number of issues with a design, the main two of them being choice of processor and size of board.

What would happen if we were to cut the board design in pieces? Well, here's my idea:
a - baseboard:
Containing some auxilliary circuitry, (ATX)power connector, port connectors for USB, Ethernet, etc. but also a connector for applying a (THE) processor on a mezzanine board.
Another connector to be placed on the side to accomodate (b).

b - PCI(e) terminating board:
Containing only 1 connector of either PCI or PCIe type.
It terminates the PCI(e) bus.

Putting (a) and (b) together creates a mini-ITX formfactor "Motherboard".

c - PCI(e) intermediate board:
Containing any combination of 2 connectors, be them PCI, be them PCIe, be them M2 to the envisioned various manufacturers' discretion.
At either side it contains a connector for mating to (a) and to (b).

Putting (a), (b) and (c) together creates a Flex-ATX formfactor "Motherboard".
Putting (a), (b), 3 times (c) together creates an ATX formfactor "Motherboard".

d - mezzanine board:
Containing EVERYTHING processor related, like memory, clock, bootrom and whatnaught.
The processor can be ANY member of the PPC-family. But not only the PPC-family, also the upcoming 'big' ARM chips and not to forget an x86 or 2. And let's not forget about MIPS and others either.

e - intermediate mezzanine board:
For those applications where a simple 2D-video will suffice, and there seem to be plenty, an appropriate chip and auxilliary circuitry are to be mounted. Would not come as a surprise to me if this would also require a pair of RS-232 ports...
This leaves (b) open for some functional, even proprietary, expansion.

The design of each board is, by cutting one big and heavy problem into several smaller and easier to solute ones (after the English philosopher William of Ockham, also Occam or Ockingham), therefore relatively simple.
As, if and when other communities may show interest this my spur off a costreduction due to the economies of scale (here's where I feel at home).

When connections to outside world are to be established, like USB and Ethernet, a series of headerpins could be implemented on either baseboard or intermediate mezzanine board (VGA pins, RS-232 pins). When headerpin arrays are put where they are located best in terms of boarddesign simplicity, this will affect designcosts.

Upgrading in this concept is accomplished by merely exchanging a board, thereby leaving everything else intact.

Wisdom from one not burdened by deep knowledge...

OldFart

Last edited by OldFart on 06-Nov-2015 at 12:55 PM.

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@cdimauro

I know, I still work with 8 bit systems.
I have one Atari 130XE expanded with more memory, an enhanced video adapter (with a blitter), a 6309 processor, and a multi-tasking OS.

I love Jay Miner's designs.

@agami

Quote:

Also, do you have a better suggestion for how people are to keep their thumbs warm?

Personally, I prefer a good pair of gloves.
Then your fingers don't smell as foul.

@iggy

>But a T10XX board will be simpler.

It depends.
olegil quick wiring draft kind of worked like a reality check.

I was "dreaming of using max amount of T10xx ports.
Still in my dream board I would need to put at least USB hub and more complex audio subsystem on board. (and it might be nightmare to write SATA drivers for T10xx etc.)

With single SB600 we would get audio and USB hub, even if we would not use the rest of the extra. And it might be possible to re-use SB600 drivers of x1000 project.

I need to "compute" the olegil way a little more...

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@Fransexy

Quote:

Fransexy wrote: @Raffaele There was already a failed bounty for a MPC8640D motherboard http://www.power2people.org/projects/mpc8610/

Honestly who would in this community had had donated a bounty created on a Bill Buck site after the notorious Genesi spies & smuggling affair?

Last edited by Raffaele on 06-Nov-2015 at 01:07 PM.

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@KimmoK

Quote:

KimmoK wrote: todo1: enquiry https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxNz0P5oVk2wZGFVaWFNUmZkMUU

It opens as .png but how does it work?

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

@OldFart

> cutting one big and heavy problem into several smaller

That is one way. (looked like extremely splitted/sliced way)
For end user one solid board is the more robust and most likely cheaper way.
Then. A compromise can be there between the extremes.

(once I was looking if Freescale Tower systems are a sane way:
http://www.element14.com/community/servlet/JiveServlet/showImage/97851/FTS_2.png
But it becomes hard to put high end 3D GPU in such a system or house one in standard and cheap computer case)

@rafaele

It is just a PNG.
I try to prepare some sheet available via google docs tonight... (/during weekend)

Last edited by KimmoK on 06-Nov-2015 at 01:19 PM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

Quote:

Raffaele wrote: Honestly who would in this community had had donated a bounty created on a Bill Buck site after the notorious Genesi spies & smuggling affair?

I think I missed that. What was that about?

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@KimmoK

Quote:

SW-driver-only challenge

Here's my philosophy on the "There's no driver for it so why build it" chicken/egg problem.


1. If the hardware is absent, then it's really hard to make the drivers for it. Ergo, there will continue to not be drivers for it.

2. If the hardware is present, then at least there is opportunity for drivers to be made at some point.

So my choice would be to include interesting hardware, regardless of if there is already a driver or not. Then there's at least a chance of the driver coming along and activating that dormant hardware feature.

So any design concept I come up with will tend to be feature rich and consider any new item that I am selfishly interested in. (Olegil has spent 6 or 7 years encouraging me to be a little more conservative with what I'd include, in private discussions very similar to this thread)

But my ideal goal is a laptop, where it is difficult to add missing pieces after a "too-KISS" motherboard is designed, manufactured and sold, and so I want to include as much as I can, and is reasonable, from the start. Then it becomes a debate of what is reasonable or not, and different of us have different opinions on that... I am trying to refrain from preaching my view too much to the PowerPC notebook people... :) If someone succeeds with such a thing and I do not, then I'll buy what I can, even if it's not my ideal, and I would have bought the now failed OS4 netbook if I could have, and it was way less performance/features than what I wanted.

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@Raffaele

Wow! 10 pages in only a few days. You've really got everyones attention.

Quote:

I am totally disappointed by X1000, X5000 or Tabor A1222.

I can understand that. It seems since the release of the AmigaOne newer machines have got slower and more expensive.

Quote:

Did I miss something?

Yes. Price?

@olegil

Some stupid questions!

Quote:

I could make a T1022 board (with T2081 upgrade path)

Do you mean that the same board can be produced with either T1022 or T2081!? If so, that's awesome!

Quote:

So design cost roughly 10k EUR, prototype run cost roughly 10k EUR, likely a respin due to some error adds another 15k and then you're into serial production.

How many prototype boards do one get on a typical 10kEUR prototype run? And the "respin" the same amount?

Quote:

For a flexATX design I would simply swap out the SB600 with an SB850 (or newer)

Does the SB850 give us extra PCIe slots compared to SB600?

Quote:

I have a hard time figuring out why anyone would NOT want this to be T2 compatible.

I Would!

_________________
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" - Albert Einstein

Why adding RS232? I don't know how many years are passed away from the last time that I used a peripheral attached to such interface.

This makes me wonder why millions are put in PPC motherboards to run OS4 on and not millions in OS4 to port to a common motherboard / other architecture. Do a bounty for that, I think it is going to take less money.

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@cdimauro

Quote:

you can take a look at the comments written to my Amiga articles, to a see very different reactions.

Well, your articles were weird. I hope it was such only by Google translate.

@Aminicle

Quote:

Do a bounty for that, I think it is going to take less money.

Exactly!

@OldFart

Good stuff.
I was just looking at my Coldfire evaluation boards, and they are constructed in a similar fashion.

@pavlor

wanting PPC has nothing to do with rationality I think. They just want it, perhaps being different than mainstream or for nostalgic/emotional reasons