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Raffaele 
Re: Bounty to prototyping a new cheap Motherboard with "Serious" CPU! Phase 1 (Specs)
Posted on 20-Mar-2016 10:13:46
#421 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1906
From: Naples, Italy

@iggy

Aw! For the Geez sake! None want you be considered dumb!

Just I felt very strange that after first mail exchange and all related stuff online you completely entered in silence, and if perhaps you made some communications you made it in other forums or other threads where I miss them.

You had this thread for official announcements... Why you did no write here?

I am sorry you spended all that money to upgrade your cad software and other related stuff to realize motherboard hardware design... But do not blame me for that again.
If you had requested help in the community, then we had had helped you by raising money with bounties or kickstarter or in other form...

Maybe we had not collected 1300 dollars but 300, 400, or more and that amount were sure a concrete discount for your expenses, considering the fact I suppose you updated Orcad (was that the software) for your anyday job and not only for Amiga hobby.

For Christ's sake! Why don't you asked for help or contacted me by mail explaining you were in difficulties?
I could had advice you not to spend all that money for an uncertain result!

What confuses me? Please Iggy re-read your last comment I was pointing to...

In the that comment you made a series of complaints not tied by a logic scheme, and referring to situations and threads completely unknown.
(at least these were topics I was unaware of.)

I am sure you were upset, but frankly I could not understand anything.

No offending. That's the plain fact.

Take a breath and re-read what you wrote and tell me if it has some sense.

Maybe it was me who was dumb due to english is not my first language and I failed to understand, as I believed it was just a list of confides to relieve your stress.

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

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Raffaele 
Re: Bounty to prototyping a new cheap Motherboard with "Serious" CPU! Phase 1 (Specs)
Posted on 20-Mar-2016 10:20:05
#422 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1906
From: Naples, Italy

@iggy

Quote:

iggy wrote:
@ne_one

An estimate?
Well the PCB firm I used to employ would run off as little as ten bare boards.
The firm that they refered me to is larger (and I expect more expensive to work with).
But the bare boards should cost no more than $100 (and less in higher numbers).
CPU costs would be almost three times what a volume purchase would require (Freescale/NXP offers discounts on purchases of 1000 PPCs, or 300 Coldfire cpus).
But that would not cost much more than the board.
I do not have a complete price on the other items in the BOM.

The really expensive part?
Assembly.
Component placement and reflow soldering for a few prototypes is bound to be almost as expensive as the 50 board production runs I proposed.

Realistically though, it should not be more expensive than buying T1042RDBs from NXP.
And the RDB is in short supply anyway.

A ballpark figure, about $2000 for two.
With full runs at a much better price.

But Aeon does have an advantage here.
They bought 1000 P1022 cpus in one purchase for production.
In years past, it was possible to negotiate with Motorola or Freescale on better pricing at lower volumes.
Today its just not that easy.

But...at least they will sell you product.
Other companies (like IBM) won't even discuss low volume sales.

So...if I wasn't spending about $4K per semester for the next eighteen months, it would not be too odious.

Hmm, I wish you had not asked that question.
It makes it seem simple.

Now, take the BOM, figure out what that would cost in lots of 50 (which would offer some discounts) and finishing becomes a smaller factor.

But the total costs require a player with deeper pockets than mine.
Now does asking Bill for help make sense?

What I guess I have not made clear is that this would definately be more expensive to build than Tabor.
It doesn't have the same economy of scale.

How much that affects the comparitive cost to the buyer is really up to the margin Aeon expects on its board.


Ahh! That's what I want to see from you from the start!... ...A very detailed comment made with calm and precise state of mind!

And perhaps these info made me really mumbling and frowning...

4000 dollars per month per 18 months IMHO is even more than we can collect as community, unfortunately, considering our target was to produce a very cheap motherboard in the range of 299, 399 US dollars who could had been bought by any Amiga user and even bring back former amigans enlarging our userbase.

What a pity...

Last edited by Raffaele on 20-Mar-2016 at 10:25 AM.

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

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Kronos 
Re: Bounty to prototyping a new cheap Motherboard with "Serious" CPU! Phase 1 (Specs)
Posted on 20-Mar-2016 10:25:11
#423 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2553
From: Unknown

@Raffaele

"semester" != "month"

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

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Raffaele 
Re: Bounty to prototyping a new cheap Motherboard with "Serious" CPU! Phase 1 (Specs)
Posted on 20-Mar-2016 10:28:00
#424 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1906
From: Naples, Italy

@Kronos

Quote:

Kronos wrote:
@Raffaele

"semester" != "month"


I beg your pardon... Seems for a moment I was distracted and read a word for another...

So it is 4000 any 6 months for a total of 18 months?

That is 12,000 dollars, and even if the community could handle it, still I think it is too much time... In a year we should have had a working motherboard or we are doomed...
1 year and a half is too much as long as we are shrinking day by day...

Only a joint effort of Trevor Dickinson, ACube and Hyperion, backed by help of entire Amiga Community could grant $4000 any six months, and more Iggy should had been backed also by people of A-Eon and ACube who had gave him necessary hints as they have already knowledge in PPC Motherboard Manufacturing, in order to minimize time, and reduce errors of design, making design complete in a reasonable amount of time...

And remember also that another Tabor or X5000 are not our target.
Motherboard must be priced from 299 to 399 dollars to attract people back in the community and also it must receive full support from both Hyperion and MorphOS team in order to release a working Operating System version with the mobo.
US$ 450 is the upper limit price IMHO to make it appetizing and affordable for the average Amiga Core-User...

Last edited by Raffaele on 20-Mar-2016 at 10:50 AM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 20-Mar-2016 at 10:48 AM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 20-Mar-2016 at 10:42 AM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 20-Mar-2016 at 10:40 AM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 20-Mar-2016 at 10:35 AM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 20-Mar-2016 at 10:34 AM.

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

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OlafS25 
Re: Bounty to prototyping a new cheap Motherboard with "Serious" CPU! Phase 1 (Specs)
Posted on 20-Mar-2016 11:03:41
#425 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@Raffaele

your "joint effort" is unrealistic

Trevor D. certainly has no interest in competition to Tabor and Iggy has explained that there would only be MorphOS and Linux but no AmigaOS running on it

That makes it uninteresting for 4.X users
most "classic" users are not interested anyway

then there is only MorphOS users left. How many are active? Perhaps 1000? How many of those would have bought another PPC hardware?

Hyperion would have asked for lots of money but they are already trying to port it to X5000 and Tabor and seem to have problems there. And who would have paid for the port to this hardware? Trevor? As I wrote it would be competing with his already financed hardware. How do you want to convince him? I could not imagine anything

BTW "the community" is not shrinking in my view but only certain parts of it

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Raffaele 
Re: Bounty to prototyping a new cheap Motherboard with "Serious" CPU! Phase 1 (Specs)
Posted on 20-Mar-2016 11:21:00
#426 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1906
From: Naples, Italy

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
@Raffaele

your "joint effort" is unrealistic

Trevor D. certainly has no interest in competition to Tabor and Iggy has explained that there would only be MorphOS and Linux but no AmigaOS running on it

[...]

Trevor? As I wrote it would be competing with his already financed hardware. How do you want to convince him? I could not imagine anything

BTW "the community" is not shrinking in my view but only certain parts of it


Convincing? Because with expensive motherboards aimed only to a restricted community of developers (and few rich developers only) we are going nowhere?

I don't want to think that Trevor desires only an expensive toy to play with, by backing only a restricted group of those few developers who bought X1000 and continue developing drivers and software for him only...

I do not want to think it as varios moves he made (like creation if Amistore) proofs Trevor interest in keeping alive this community.

Also only a ("relative") cheap motherboard and well supported by both operating system can keep people not leaving our party...

And about community shrinking:

Count randomly (starting from a year, a year ago up today on Amiga forums) how many people partecipated the discussions and how many reads received the topics... It is a good thermometer of our community situation.

Last edited by Raffaele on 20-Mar-2016 at 11:27 AM.

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

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OlafS25 
Re: Bounty to prototyping a new cheap Motherboard with "Serious" CPU! Phase 1 (Specs)
Posted on 20-Mar-2016 11:32:55
#427 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@Raffaele

You see it wrong... you mix a forum like this with "the community"

The amiga club here nearby (all users are what you call "classic users") are not active on web at all (except some of them on one german forum). The "NG" community perhaps, I cannot judge that. The community in total not in my view. That is also visible by preorders and activity regarding Vampire.

Trevor (if I read it correctly) has ordered parts for 1000 Tabor boards. What do you think would happen with it when a new better and cheaper board is available and both MorphOS and AmigaOS running on it? Tabor only runs AmigaOS and there will be no MorphOS port for it. Trevor might be "crazy" but not as much. He will certainly not finance it. For bigger companies the market is too small. Better idea would be to port AmigaOS and MorphOS to different ISAs where you get new off-the-shelf good affordable hardware. PPC is dead-end, any PPCs are toys because of problems to port software from other ISAs like Javascript JIT shows.

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Overflow 
Re: Bounty to prototyping a new cheap Motherboard with "Serious" CPU! Phase 1 (Specs)
Posted on 20-Mar-2016 11:35:26
#428 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1628
From: Norway

@OlafS25

This is offtopic, but more a indication about activity amongst "amigans";

Yesterday there was a rough guesstimate about how many people would have a Vampire board by the end of 2016, and it was called at around 1000 (with A500/1200 boards in the equation).
Then you got A3000 and A4000 users+the standalone Vampire. Maybe even push it to 1500+ users?

Looking at Daytonas development page for Wings, it shows "182 units already sold, only 118 remaining. Better preorder now!" http://www.goldencode.de/amiga/
Ofcourse not everyone is a gamer, and many of us had bought the Windows version as soon as the updated version arrived. Still rather dissapointing numbers.

Then we got 1000+ MorphOS users?
xx AROS x86
Plus however many users bought the X1000+Sam systems.

Vampire is 150 euro for a classic product, which indicates the range where "lots" of people are willing to throw money at something that provides quite decent performanceboost in classic terms, but low in mainstream.
Obviously disputable how high the sum would have to go before people stopped ordering.

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OlafS25 
Re: Bounty to prototyping a new cheap Motherboard with "Serious" CPU! Phase 1 (Specs)
Posted on 20-Mar-2016 11:42:52
#429 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@Overflow

I think main problem for Vampire is now to satisfy the current need

And there will be a number of supported new amiga models and future standalone devices

I also think that this new hardware will bring back former amigans because it is geeky and different

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Overflow 
Re: Bounty to prototyping a new cheap Motherboard with "Serious" CPU! Phase 1 (Specs)
Posted on 20-Mar-2016 12:08:24
#430 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1628
From: Norway

@OlafS25

Yup, agree.

I guess my point is; there is a rapid rise in the classic community activity due to cheap hardware.
When Wings only summon 182 sales, and the Tales of Gorluth II had to work quite hard to secure 200 per orders, it still inspired developers to code with those low numbers.
With the resurgance of 1000+ high performance classic users, your salespotential for software goes up quite a bit, since the baseline userprofile is now 060++ performance level with 130 megs of ram.
This translates into that the most active consumers all have hardware that can run anything you can throw at it, contrary to the past.

I guess this is what a cheap PPC motherboard could do too...

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OlafS25 
Re: Bounty to prototyping a new cheap Motherboard with "Serious" CPU! Phase 1 (Specs)
Posted on 20-Mar-2016 12:38:47
#431 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@Overflow

it is difficult for me to make any guesses about potential PPC sales. It would depend very much on price, what the hardware offers and how is software support (expecially which OSs would run on it).

Most what people here call "classic" users are not interested in it, whatever the price would be. But some would buy it like the sales of the "classic" version of 4.X show

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Raffaele 
Re: Bounty to prototyping a new cheap Motherboard with "Serious" CPU! Phase 1 (Specs)
Posted on 20-Mar-2016 12:49:19
#432 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1906
From: Naples, Italy

@OlafS25

Not to offend you but there are people like me who have not much money left...

I have 4 Amiga 4000 (2 were corroded in garage due to infiltrations) and I have no intention upgrading it just for playing quickly videogames, and still not being usable for playing movies or too slow for 3D rendering.

I could made a very strong sacrifice for a PPC T2080 ranged in a price of 299 euro that will give me horsepower like an Intel i3, just to keep alive my hobby and the Amiga as computing ecologic niche enviroment that pleases me various time over any PC, Linux, Apple or whatsoever, but sure I will definitively not invest anymore in obsolete hardware.

Stop thinking the Amiga as past glory and think of the Amiga as future... Because it is very humiliating use those sh** Operating Systems like Windows. Gimme an Amiga for the future not for the past!

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

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OlafS25 
Re: Bounty to prototyping a new cheap Motherboard with "Serious" CPU! Phase 1 (Specs)
Posted on 20-Mar-2016 12:55:43
#433 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@Raffaele

not to offend you either but talking about obsolete hardware and wanting a slow (in todays terms) low-cost PPC board?

I talk about hobby and fun platform

for the rest everybody has a PC or Mac already. If you want a serious platform and have limited money buy a used PC. Tabor or this board would not be the solution for you

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wawa 
Re: Bounty to prototyping a new cheap Motherboard with "Serious" CPU! Phase 1 (Specs)
Posted on 20-Mar-2016 12:59:39
#434 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Raffaele

Quote:

Count randomly (starting from a year, a year ago up today on Amiga forums) how many people partecipated the discussions and how many reads received the topics... It is a good thermometer of our community situation.

yes.this forum is fading away, as other os4 centric sites, everybody can verify that by themselves. but it was foreseeable. posting more random fantasies wont make it appear more alive. instead check out german a1k or british eab or other actually mostly amiga related forums, perhaps you can join amibay or even go to polish ppa, inclusive its strong morphos fraction. also apollo irc is quite lively. you just need to know where to look.

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wawa 
Re: Bounty to prototyping a new cheap Motherboard with "Serious" CPU! Phase 1 (Specs)
Posted on 20-Mar-2016 13:07:01
#435 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Raffaele

Quote:


Not to offend you but there are people like me who have not much money left...

I have 4 Amiga 4000 (2 were corroded in garage due to infiltrations) and I have no intention upgrading it just for playing quickly videogames, and still not being usable for playing movies or too slow for 3D rendering.

I could made a very strong sacrifice for a PPC T2080 ranged in a price of 299 euro that will give me horsepower like an Intel i3, just to keep alive my hobby and the Amiga as computing ecologic niche enviroment that pleases me various time over any PC, Linux, Apple or whatsoever, but sure I will definitively not invest anymore in obsolete hardware.

Stop thinking the Amiga as past glory and think of the Amiga as future... Because it is very humiliating use those sh** Operating Systems like Windows. Gimme an Amiga for the future not for the past!


not to offend you, but perhaps you should really stand back for a moment and try to take on your life situation instead making bold demands on forums just because you consider using windows humiliating for some reason.

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Pleng 
Re: Bounty to prototyping a new cheap Motherboard with "Serious" CPU! Phase 1 (Specs)
Posted on 20-Mar-2016 13:07:17
#436 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Nov-2005
Posts: 458
From: Unknown

@Raffaele

Quote:

Because it is very humiliating use those sh** Operating Systems like Windows.


I know, right. Every day I curse the fact that there doesn't seem to be a single piece of software that can completely bring down my Windows install. I hate the fact that the applications I'm using are spreading their tasks across all 8 of my cores, and restricting themselves while restricting themselves to their own protected memory space.

Having out-of-the box support for any peripheral that I buy is also a complete PITA.

Windows is truly a "sh**" operating system.

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pavlor 
Re: Bounty to prototyping a new cheap Motherboard with "Serious" CPU! Phase 1 (Specs)
Posted on 20-Mar-2016 13:11:57
#437 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:
not to offend you either but talking about obsolete hardware and wanting a slow (in todays terms) low-cost PPC board?

Quote:
I talk about hobby and fun platform


Why is this mutually exclusive?

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Rose 
Re: Bounty to prototyping a new cheap Motherboard with "Serious" CPU! Phase 1 (Specs)
Posted on 20-Mar-2016 13:22:10
#438 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 982
From: Unknown

@Raffaele

Quote:
could made a very strong sacrifice for a PPC T2080 ranged in a price of 299 euro that will give me horsepower like an Intel i3


If you had even basic undestanding of topic you would know that you would get nothing even close i3 performance.

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OlafS25 
Re: Bounty to prototyping a new cheap Motherboard with "Serious" CPU! Phase 1 (Specs)
Posted on 20-Mar-2016 13:30:47
#439 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@pavlor

fun with a low-power PPC board?

For me not... but everybody can do what he wants

but here I answered on Raffaele writing he would not buy "obsolete hardware" and my answer was that his PPC board is obsolete hardware either so that is no criterium here. It is hobby...

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pavlor 
Re: Bounty to prototyping a new cheap Motherboard with "Serious" CPU! Phase 1 (Specs)
Posted on 20-Mar-2016 13:50:54
#440 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@Rose

Quote:
If you had even basic undestanding of topic you would know that you would get nothing even close i3 performance.


True.

SpecInt2006 results (single core integer performance):
T4240 1.666 GHz: 6.86
Core i3-4130 3.4 GHz: 48.7

Tabor... cca 3.5
Vampire... cca 0.15

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