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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
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1Mouse 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 15-Dec-2015 20:22:33
#201 ]
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Joined: 23-Jun-2005
Posts: 1356
From: Bradford, West Yorkshire

Most people on here seem to be wrapped up in the concern of processor speed but for me the important thing would be to get away from PPC which at present are slow and expensive.

At present the processor used for AOS4.1 seem to be slow and expensive.

Could it be we (Amiga community) are working our way to a cheaper, faster PPC processor? (estimate 2 years, guessing)

or start porting, in some way to X64, allowing a cheaper, faster option (estimate 2 years, guessing)

Ignore most of above, am just having a rant

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 15-Dec-2015 20:23:32
#202 ]
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Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@cdimauro

No because your spreading FUD, and don't know what your taking about

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cdimauro 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 15-Dec-2015 20:23:46
#203 ]
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Joined: 29-Oct-2012
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From: Germany

@1Mouse: a new, fast PowerPC processor is totally out of question.

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cdimauro 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 15-Dec-2015 20:24:23
#204 ]
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Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@cdimauro

No because your spreading FUD, and don't know what your taking about

Then it'll be easy for you prove it, right?

I wait for your technical explanation...

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 15-Dec-2015 20:30:16
#205 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@1Mouse

Quote:
At present the processor used for AOS4.1 seem to be slow and expensive.

Well, yes true, but there are many other parts that make an OS fast; like
hardware video acceleration, that also completely is lacking.

SMP support, and this is not hardware problem, It’s a software problem.
we have the hardware that can do that, but we do not have software that can use cuda, opencl, UVD and all that other fancy stuff.

And also you might gotten really fast PowerPC server for price of the X1000, or X5000. Actually it CPU type issue, the problem is making the smart choices, it seems.

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cdimauro 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 15-Dec-2015 21:38:33
#206 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:
@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@cdimauro

No because your spreading FUD, and don't know what your taking about

Then it'll be easy for you prove it, right?

I wait for your technical explanation...

After one hour you were floating around in the forum, but "strangely" you didn't reported any fact to sustain your thesis.

However I did the homework for you. I think that 3 facts are enough to show what kind of liar are you:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38648&forum=2#727471
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=38751&forum=2&start=120&viewmode=flat&order=0#758515
http://stream1.amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=40691&forum=2&start=300&viewmode=flat&order=0#773369

Those are MY replies to YOUR comments on that specific argument.

But I've discussed of it with other people too. I picked-up a couple of my comments which better explain how Windows x64 works with 32-bit applications, and why this isn't possible with the post-Amiga o.ses:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=40622&forum=2&start=280&viewmode=flat&order=0#770613
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=40622&forum=2&start=360&viewmode=flat&order=0#770732

It doesn't change the picture: your still a liar!

Last edited by cdimauro on 15-Dec-2015 at 09:39 PM.

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saimon69 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 15-Dec-2015 22:12:29
#207 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2007
Posts: 307
From: Los Angeles, CA

@cdimauro

Quote:

It doesn't change the picture: your still a liar!


I would say more "politically biased", but that is me...

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 15-Dec-2015 22:15:21
#208 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@cdimauro

Your just copy pasting your argument, again… It does not make you argument for way you can't box in 32bit programs, Or way you can't make memory windows where 32bit and 64bit programs interact.

We are taking about tiny wrapper here, not a big deal, the idea is that you can expose something and hide other things.

and lots of the data can be shares as it all big endian,

And again its being done in Windows, and I think Linux does it, I'm not sure about MacOSX, I wont be surprised if they do it there.

Historically on Amiga, there where 32bit 680x0 program interacting with PowerPC programs long before AmigaOS got PowerPC support, using WarpUP and PowerUP software.

Really I don't see the big problem, this can be done, in some way or some form.

Personally, I think it be parity easy to run 32bit software on 64bit kernel.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Dec-2015 at 10:27 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Dec-2015 at 10:19 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Dec-2015 at 10:19 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Dec-2015 at 10:17 PM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 15-Dec-2015 22:27:19
#209 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@NutsAboutAmiga: you were NOT talking about tiny things here.

"Yes that's the reason you can't have 64bit windows, running 32bit windows programs"

Show me how you can do the same thing with a post-Amiga o.s. ported to 64-bit.

And I've already explained that the host o.s. can can share some resources with the sandboxed legacy argument. You can find it also on my comment #190.

However, the discussion was about an hybrid system, with part running on the new o.s. and the other in the old, to make it easier the transition, using an incremental approach. I've talked of it even on such comment #190.

EDIT. You added another part to your comment. I reply here:
@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@cdimauro

Historically on Amiga, there where 32bit 680x0 program interacting with PowerPC programs long before AmigaOS got PowerPC support, using WarpUP and PowerUP software.

Really I don't see the big problem, this can be done, in some way or some form.

Of course they are both 32-bit architecture and big-endian too.
Quote:
Personally, I think it be parity easy to run 32bit software on 64bit kernel.

Then show it how!

Last edited by cdimauro on 15-Dec-2015 at 10:30 PM.
Last edited by cdimauro on 15-Dec-2015 at 10:28 PM.

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kolla 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 15-Dec-2015 22:29:08
#210 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2859
From: Trondheim, Norway

@NutsAboutAmiga

Please stop this nonsense... cdimauro is correct and you are wrong.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 15-Dec-2015 22:29:36
#211 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@cdimauro

"Show me how you can do the same thing with a post-Amiga o.s. ported to 64-bit."

How can I show you that? I don't have source code to AmigaOS, nor to MorphOS…
sure there is AROS, but I let AROS boys experiment with that…
anyway are they not running 32bit AROS hosted on 64bit Linux now

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Dec-2015 at 10:30 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 15-Dec-2015 22:31:47
#212 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@kolla

So you can't run 32bit program on Windows 64bit, is that what your saying

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 15-Dec-2015 22:37:04
#213 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@cdimauro

Quote:
Then show it how!


It's not magic…

You have one address that is.

00A01000

then you have one address that is:

00000000 00A01000

Wow there is zeros in front of this how hard is map 32bit to this o_O, not hard at all.

This many times easier than having to do LE to BE or BE to LE conversion on memory don't know how is structured. I'm thinking about Rosetta.

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cdimauro 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 15-Dec-2015 22:37:11
#214 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@cdimauro

"Show me how you can do the same thing with a post-Amiga o.s. ported to 64-bit."

How can I show you that? I don't have source code to AmigaOS, nor to MorphOS…

You don't need the source for it: just to know how the things work.

Suppose that you have OS4 or MorphOS, with proper 64-bit APIs to do the same thing that you do on the 32-bit o.s. version.

Now show me how a 32-bit app can send a message to ANY app, 64-bit ones included. Of course, you have first to reach the target app's message port.

Any idea on how it should work?
Quote:
sure there is AROS, but I let AROS boys experiment with that…

Here you have the sources and you can try yourself.

Or ask AROS devs why they haven't done it yet, since most of the AROS software is only available for the 32-bit flavor.
Quote:
anyway are they not running 32bit AROS hosted on 64bit Linux now

Yes, and that's similar to the WinUAE approach. AROS is just an application.

Again, you continue to talk of things of which you have no idea on how they work...

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cdimauro 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 15-Dec-2015 22:43:57
#215 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@kolla

So you can't run 32bit program on Windows 64bit, is that what your saying

Again, I've explained how Windows work on the threads for which I've reported some links.

Of course, you haven't read them, or, which is much probably, you don't understand how Windows works.

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
Then show it how!


It's not magic…

You have one address that is.

00A01000

then you have one address that is:

00000000 00A01000

Wow there is zeros in front of this how hard is map 32bit to this o_O, not hard at all.

Now suppose that a 64-bit app opens its message port at C0DEDBAD 00A01000 address.

And suppose that a 32-bit app wants to send a message to it...
Quote:
This many times easier than having to do LE to BE or BE to LE conversion on memory don't know how is structured. I'm thinking about Rosetta.

Well, Rosetta is just a JITer, and the PowerPC calls to the underneath x64 o.s. are tunneled without problems because MacOS X uses opaque data structures.

Compare it Amiga o.s., where any task can have back the pointer to the concrete o.s. data structure, when it requests some service.

Exactly the same thing, right?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 15-Dec-2015 22:54:16
#216 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@cdimauro

Quote:

You don't need the source for it: just to know how the things work.

Suppose that you have OS4 or MorphOS, with proper 64-bit APIs to do the same thing that you do on the 32-bit o.s. version.


you send some things like intuition messages, and as long its a known structures, other structures that is not known, will be problematic.

But you can allow some program to pass messages while other are not, the problem is not the message port, or message header, but content of the message.

All you need to do is repackage the message, and as long as it data, not pointers, then there no need for translation, again you stick that shard memory in 31bit low mem, to make translation easy.

For most part it not a problem.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Dec-2015 at 10:58 PM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 15-Dec-2015 23:05:15
#217 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@NutsAboutAmiga: it's a problem for the developers which have to take their sources, and change all parts that need to mark a memory allocation as "31-bit address", to be sure that the o.s. allocates such buffer correctly.

But this works until you fill the 2GB address space: then no application, 32 or 64-bit cannot work anymore, even if you have plenty of free memory...

And that's only for the system memory.

Now imagine that you've a 2GB graphic card: you have to properly split and map it, to make it usable for both 32 and 64-bit apps. Of course, if part of the memory should be shared, you have to change your application accordingly.

So, the net result is that you're complicating a lot everything, moving the burden to the developers shoulders, while still limiting the new 64-bit platform...

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tlosm 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 15-Dec-2015 23:09:39
#218 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2746
From: Amiga land

@cdimauro

7800gtx is the best GFX in the Market ? ... this explain me why i dont see super difference in Quake 3 on G5 compared the MacBook Pro i7


Quote:
from a reality involved in the video game market.


... Valve ?

you forget AMD do good GPU and not only CPU ... is not like Intel ... bwawa

@NutsAboutAmiga

i suggest you to left him ... or just do what im making with he play and joke is really funny watch him write too much bla bla bla only for his self .
are 3 years i have return on the scene and are 3 years he continue write bla bla bla without doing nothing just and only bla bla

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kolla 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 15-Dec-2015 23:09:48
#219 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2859
From: Trondheim, Norway

@NutsAboutAmiga

How do you repack data? How would you repack generic 64bit data so that it is accessible for a 32bit application? How would you repack 32bit data in a way so that it makes sense for a 64bit application? A 64bit application write its data into memory in 64bit words, to share with other 64bit applications, enters 32bit application that wants to read those data... then the OS does what?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 15-Dec-2015 23:10:40
#220 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@cdimauro

But even Microsoft has not solved that issue, it never be bullet prof, that is way better run 64bit program then 32bit program, when you have 64bit OS.

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