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      /  Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
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kolla 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 15-Dec-2015 23:14:11
#221 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2859
From: Trondheim, Norway

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

But even Microsoft has not solved that issue, it never be bullet prof, that is way better run 64bit program then 32bit program, when you have 64bit OS.


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cdimauro 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 15-Dec-2015 23:19:49
#222 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@tlosm

Quote:

tlosm wrote:
@cdimauro

7800gtx is the best GFX in the Market ? ... this explain me why i dont see super difference in Quake 3 on G5 compared the MacBook Pro i7

When it arrived to the market, of course.
Quote:
Quote:
from a reality involved in the video game market.


... Valve ?

Valve doesn't produce Steam machines.
Quote:
you forget AMD do good GPU and not only CPU ... is not like Intel ... bwawa

As I already stated (but it's quite evident that you don't read), Intel's GPU of the last years are very good, and show even better performance of AMD's integrated one.

As usual, you talk of things that you don't know. Maybe be cause you're closed in your G5-centric room, while the world outside goes ahead.
Quote:
@NutsAboutAmiga

i suggest you to left him ... or just do what im making with he play and joke is really funny watch him write too much bla bla bla only for his self .
are 3 years i have return on the scene and are 3 years he continue write bla bla bla without doing nothing just and only bla bla

The usual trolling, because you don't know how to rebut to my replies to your non-sense writings...


@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote:
@NutsAboutAmiga

How do you repack data? How would you repack generic 64bit data so that it is accessible for a 32bit application? How would you repack 32bit data in a way so that it makes sense for a 64bit application? A 64bit application write its data into memory in 64bit words, to share with other 64bit applications, enters 32bit application that wants to read those data... then the OS does what?

The solution for him is quite "simple": reduce everything to a 31-bit world...


@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@cdimauro

But even Microsoft has not solved that issue, it never be bullet prof, that is way better run 64bit program then 32bit program, when you have 64bit OS.

What issue wasn't solved?

Microsoft had to solve nothing, because there's no such issue on Windows, as I already explained several times. And the same for Linux, OS X, *BSD, etc..

The problem is only for the Amiga o.s..

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fishy_fis 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 16-Dec-2015 0:10:31
#223 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 2156
From: Australia

@tsolm

Huh? What does a 10 year old CPU and 6 year old GPU on a legacy interface have to do with the fact any ppc won't come close to utilizing a modern graphics card properly?
If you're trying to suggest you can get acceptable results that may well be the case, but only as you said by running very low resolutions, and low settings.

The point is, again, with any ppc system, regardless of which particular CPU its using, there simply isn't enough processing power to come close to the potential of a modern GPU. The CPU will always be a bottleneck (as will the old memory and PCI express interface).

@iggy

I'm simply talking theory. If people are happy with 10 year or so old performance then good luck to them. Personally I'm a little behind the times as well.... my fastest PC is far from cutting edge.... I7-2700k@4ghz+12gig ddr3@2ghz.
I only have 1920*1200 monitors too, but even then my system is sort of bare minimum to get acceptable results for all the software I use. Running 2 copies of a playstation2 emulator (for linked gaming) is pretty heavy, and running modern games at my monitors native resolution (even if its only medium res in the modern world) requires some compromises, some 3d rendering and video editting and so on.
If a person wants to deal in the modern world you need these sorts of specs unless you want to have severe limits and restrictions. When I turn on my computer I want to dictate what I want to do, not have the machine cough and splutter and not cope.

There's plenty you can do on a ppc system, but there's just as much that is too much for them, and given the price of most, that's why they're of little interest to me. That "decent performance for computing of yesteryear" can still be fun for an extra machine, but not at an insane price, and not when all that makes it different is the CPU. At least not for me.

Last edited by fishy_fis on 16-Dec-2015 at 12:59 AM.

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agami 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 16-Dec-2015 1:47:17
#224 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1637
From: Melbourne, Australia

@cdimauro

Quote:
The two environments are totally different, and you can't have a franken-platform with part of the code running on the new architecture, and part on the PowerPC card. No way. You end-up with something like WinUAE which runs the legacy PowerPC & 68K code under the host o.s., only sharing SOME resources (NO CODE!) in a limited and controlled manner.

Did I ever mention it would be done without emulation?

My advice to you is to get better at distinguishing the impossible from the impractical.

In one statement you will outline how you could make it possible but it wouldn't be easy and the resulting thing would have limitations.

And then in another you will state it is impossible.
Quote:
So, it doesn't matter about reducing the final costs: there are no costs for an impossible solution.


And in replies to @NutsAboutAmiga you talk about shifting the responsibility to developers to update their code. So fricken what. An inconvenience to developers does not make something impossible.

At the end of the day, a PPC card in an x86 based PC could be made to work and support the running of AmigaOS 4.x and 68k legacy software. In essence what we have now with a $4,000+ machine.

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iggy 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 16-Dec-2015 1:55:49
#225 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@agami

I like the idea.
And it would plug into about anything with a compatible slot from low end systems to higher end stuff like fishy has mentioned.

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cdimauro 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 16-Dec-2015 6:06:34
#226 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@fishy_fis

Quote:

fishy_fis wrote:
@tsolm

Huh? What does a 10 year old CPU and 6 year old GPU on a legacy interface have to do with the fact any ppc won't come close to utilizing a modern graphics card properly?

Actually he made much worse: he compared the mobile version of a GPU integrated in a 2011 processor, with the top discrete video card released on 2005.

And at the end it showed the exact contrary of his purpose...


@agami

Quote:

agami wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
The two environments are totally different, and you can't have a franken-platform with part of the code running on the new architecture, and part on the PowerPC card. No way. You end-up with something like WinUAE which runs the legacy PowerPC & 68K code under the host o.s., only sharing SOME resources (NO CODE!) in a limited and controlled manner.

Did I ever mention it would be done without emulation?

Where is the emulation if you continue to propose the integration of a PowerPC card on the new system?
Quote:
My advice to you is to get better at distinguishing the impossible from the impractical.

In one statement you will outline how you could make it possible but it wouldn't be easy and the resulting thing would have limitations.

And then in another you will state it is impossible.
Quote:
So, it doesn't matter about reducing the final costs: there are no costs for an impossible solution.


And in replies to @NutsAboutAmiga you talk about shifting the responsibility to developers to update their code. So fricken what. An inconvenience to developers does not make something impossible.

Maybe you haven't read careful all comments which I've written.

What NutsAboutAmiga suggests is a de-facto 31-bit system, with the o.s. bound to use the bottom 2GB of memory for its structures (at least the published ones), since on the Amiga o.s. any 32-bit application can access all them.

And what's worse, if you want to port your existing application to the 64-bit o.s., you have to carefully analyze your code, checking if a memory allocation or, in general, a specific API call allocates resources which might be shared with all other apps.

As I already stated, if the bottom 2GB memory saturates, you end-up with your whole system which is not working anymore, even if you have 1TB of free memory.

Last but not really least, for orchestrate all this mess you to introduce 32-bit and 64-bit pointers, and the 64-bit o.s. and 64-bit apps needs to specifically use and distinguish them, as said.

Of course, this also means that 64-bit PowerPC code can only be allocated on the first 2GB memory (take a look at the o.s. structures), and what's worse is that it also applies to the stack.

So, you have NOT solved your problem, and created a mess with the only added possibility, for 64-bit apps, to use more memory for non-public buffers.

All this do NOT happen with the other 64-bit o.ses and their 64-bit apps. In fact, porting from 32-bit to 64-bit Windows usually required just a recompilation. Issues? None. Only in the mind of peoples which don't know what the they talk about...
Quote:
At the end of the day, a PPC card in an x86 based PC could be made to work and support the running of AmigaOS 4.x and 68k legacy software. In essence what we have now with a $4,000+ machine.

See above: where is the emulation here?

And have you though about interfacing such card with the rest of the system? For example, how do you handle apps which want to access to the graphic memory and the graphic card in general? How this will work?

No words only, please: give a practical solution.

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tlosm 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 16-Dec-2015 6:17:52
#227 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2746
From: Amiga land


@fishy_fis

Quote:
Huh? What does a 10 year old CPU and 6 year old GPU on a legacy interface have to do with the fact any ppc won't come close to utilizing a modern graphics card properly?

i know now why wiiu isnt making good 3d games
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJwRZQ3SvKk

and now understand why this too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=so35SrThHUs

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fishy_fis 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 16-Dec-2015 8:09:45
#228 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 2156
From: Australia

@tlosm

Exactly.... very much trailing edge stuff. Wii U looks pretty much like the 8 and 9 year old xb360 and ps3,.... and that's using hardware optimized for gaming.
The g5 video looks as a person would expect from a 10 year old CPU and low end graphics card.

I get you was trying to make a different point, but you ended up doing the contrary.
Nothing at all impressive there that couldn't be seen/done 6 or 7 or more years ago. The 6570 was always an average card at best. A budget card for those who want to do some light gaming. Nowadays its very low end, beaten by integrated GPUs. Couple it with an old, clunky CPU like a g5 and as the video shows its going to look as dated as it is.

Last edited by fishy_fis on 16-Dec-2015 at 08:16 AM.
Last edited by fishy_fis on 16-Dec-2015 at 08:15 AM.

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tlosm 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 16-Dec-2015 9:05:58
#229 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2746
From: Amiga land

@fishy_fis

Belive me ... wii u isnt comparable to Xbox 360 or Ps3 it have much better performances, effects, resolution.

and belive me i know what im speaking about

its an half ... add to this all last gens console too and a complete cd32 collection


Last edited by tlosm on 16-Dec-2015 at 09:09 AM.
Last edited by tlosm on 16-Dec-2015 at 09:07 AM.

_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32;
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
#nomorea-eoninmyhome

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fishy_fis 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 16-Dec-2015 9:24:09
#230 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 2156
From: Australia

@tlosm

Wii U image quality is very much last gen. Same with pixel and vertex shaders. More games than not run at 720p. I'm not really a fan of blur-o-vision.

Its knocked silly by xbone and ps4, and even they were very disappointing and massively underspecced for their time.

Seems you're trapped back in time oblivious to where technology is these days, which is fine. Old outdated gear can be fun, especially when it doesn't cost a fortune.
Its quite funny though that you tell me to trust you and that you know what you're talking about when every post you make suggests otherwise. :)
If you really did you wouldn't keep posting videos of clearly dated stuff that was possible 10 years ago and expect people to be impressed. I've yet to see a single g5 video that did anything that a 10 year old athlon64 doorstop couldn't do. In fact said doorstop out specs/outperforms a g5. :)

As long as you're having fun that's all that matters, but please stop trying to suggest something like a g5 is anything but dated. Some of us use modern-ish gear as well as retro gear and actually do know otherwise.

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tlosm 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 16-Dec-2015 9:35:18
#231 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2746
From: Amiga land

@fishy_fis

Quote:
As long as you're having fun that's all that matters, but please stop trying to suggest something like a g5 is anything but dated. Some of us use modern-ish gear as well as retro gear and actually do know otherwise.


i have the modern machine too dont warry about but for sure im speaking about an user i dont see really much differences when im doing something with the G5 or on I7...
for sure if i build something with make -j4 on G5 and on my I7 (2012) machine i dont see difference in building time ... for sure if i made on i7 make -j8 i kill the quad
but ... im thinking what will be on a Power8 ? if i will do there make -j32 ?

Last edited by tlosm on 16-Dec-2015 at 10:55 AM.

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I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32;
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
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agami 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 16-Dec-2015 10:40:04
#232 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1637
From: Melbourne, Australia

@cdimauro

Also, I never implied that I know the detailed ins and outs of how to engineer this. But what I do have is a very specific set of skills; skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills....
Jokes aside, I have seen enough things that have been claimed "impossible" made possible. And the history of computing is filled with stories of "it can't be done" only to have some clever engineer figure out a way to do it.

I'm known to be an optimist. I'm also used to people who only seem to focus on what can't be done. Playing devil's advocate can be useful, but a person with your level of knowledge should be using their powers for good.


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noXLar 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 16-Dec-2015 11:33:58
#233 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-May-2003
Posts: 736
From: Norway

@agami

+1 well said

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tlosm 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 16-Dec-2015 11:38:47
#234 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2746
From: Amiga land

@agami

+10

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A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32;
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
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olegil 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 16-Dec-2015 13:17:01
#235 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@agami

Sometimes the answer isn't "it's impossible", but "it's not a good idea", though.

_________________
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Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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OldFart 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 16-Dec-2015 13:47:29
#236 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2004
Posts: 3059
From: Stad; en d'r is moar ain stad en da's Stad. Makkelk zat!

@olegil

Quote:
but "it's not a good idea", though.

Then again: today's good ideas can turn tomorrow's nightmares...

OldFart

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OldFart 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 16-Dec-2015 13:50:13
#237 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2004
Posts: 3059
From: Stad; en d'r is moar ain stad en da's Stad. Makkelk zat!

@tlosm

With regards to that picture in post #229: I cant help but feel a ressemblance to the characters in "The Big Bang Theory"...

OldFart

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iggy 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 16-Dec-2015 14:26:21
#238 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@fishy_fis

Quote:
old, clunky CPU like a g5


The problem with your posts is you aren't really that informed about cpu architecture but you like to make broad statements.

The cpus in the PS3 and Xbox360 were specifically designed with games in mind (and are still ahead of the cpu in the WiiU) and they are in order cpus. At 2.7 GHz the 970 is built on older technology (but is an out of order system, but is considerably more powerful per core than the Cell BE or the Xenon (with, I might add, better math capability than X86s of its period)..

As far as the 6570 goes, yes its dated.
But for Amiga related needs, do we really need more than a 7750?

What makes you think we will ever be able to match a high end X64 with an expensive DX11 video card (or that so of us, myself in particular, want to)?

It not even an apples and oranges comparison (something more little apples and eggs).

If you want to play games, you are better off with an XboxONE or a PS4.

My computers are work. If some tasks take slightly longer than if I had bought a higher end X64 that would rapidly age, so be it.

And you never addressed my comment about my CAD hardware.

Outside of Blender (which has Cuda support but nothing Quadro specific) how well do you think your system would compare to my lower spec X64 with a CAD specific video card?
Guess what? Not well.

Its about what you value.
And right now, as I wait for a shift to X64, I value being able to run my current OS as well as i can on my current hardware.

That means decent hardware not emulation under X64 which isn't going to provide it.

So back off agami's idea.
Its valid and not as hard to implement as you think.


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kolla 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 16-Dec-2015 15:09:54
#239 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2859
From: Trondheim, Norway

Amiga OS is a system with one process - exec.library - everything else are tasks.

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bison 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 16-Dec-2015 15:23:44
#240 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@kolla

Some terminology disambiguation: task == thread, or something else?

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