@bison

Quote:

My number one complaint with Windows 10 is that Microsoft is using it to collect user data. For that reason alone I will not use it.

Aint they able, if they so wish, to do that with any other Windows edition?

@bison

Quote:

bison wrote: @Hammer My number one complaint with Windows 10 is that Microsoft is using it to collect user data. For that reason alone I will not use it.

Similar issues with Google's Android.

If you are not comfortable with Windows 10's user data collection, you can choose to disable this feature through not linking Windows 10 to a Microsoft account. This is done at set up through ‘creating a new account’ and not signing in with a Microsoft account.

Read http://www.windowsecurity.com/articles-tutorials/windows_10_security/clarity-windows-10-data-collection.html

Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jan-2016 at 04:57 AM.

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@Overflow
Quote:

Aint they able, if they so wish, to do that with any other Windows edition?

I don't know -- I'm no Windows expert, but I've seen a lot of recent articles about how bad Windows 10 is in this regard.

Last edited by bison on 12-Jan-2016 at 04:57 AM.

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@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote: That's an interesting point. AFAIK Cloanto should have the copyright for the old Amiga (and Commodore 8-bit machines) software, so they should be allowed to download such archive. And in theory they can use it for new development: from simple bug fixing (releasing some updated components) to new features, or even ports to new architectures...

Why? Cloanto made a deal with Hyperion to sell AmigaOS 4.1 FE license with AmigaForever 2016 Plus package.

I don't get the idea with Cloanto being hostile to Hyperion.

Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jan-2016 at 05:06 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jan-2016 at 05:04 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jan-2016 at 05:02 AM.

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@ne_one

Quote:

The delta to piece together a NG OS should be an order of magnitude less insane than back-filling a 30 -year-old foundation.

I think the same. It's too late in the game to start bottom-up from scratch and hope to catch up. That's been the case for at least 15 years. Trying to patch up a 30-year old architecture with memory protection, etc. would be even more difficult.

Working top-down from the DE is possible. That way there are applications right from the start, so the system can be used by people other than developers as it is being developed.

Last edited by bison on 12-Jan-2016 at 05:07 AM.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @cdimauro Quote: cdimauro wrote: That's an interesting point. AFAIK Cloanto should have the copyright for the old Amiga (and Commodore 8-bit machines) software, so they should be allowed to download such archive. And in theory they can use it for new development: from simple bug fixing (releasing some updated components) to new features, or even ports to new architectures... Why? Cloanto made a deal with Hyperion to sell AmigaOS 4.1 FE license with AmigaForever 2016 Plus package. I don't get the idea with Cloanto being hostile to Hyperion.

Why hostile? Cloanto is currently interested on the Amiga platform, whereas Hyperion on the post-Amiga one.

Yes, in theory Cloanto could port Amiga o.s. 3.x to new architectures, but it requires too much investment for a little company.

@Overflow

Quote:

Aint they able, if they so wish, to do that with any other Windows edition?

Yes, they already added the much criticized telemetry tracking as "updates" to Windows 7 and 8 aswell. So if you have system updates set to automatic, you already have it.

So, it's not what they "could" do. They already did. Of course they could do more, but that's the most criticized one, since it can't be (normally) turned off on Win10.

@Jupp3

Only answer to that issue; Install Vampire accelerator and use WB 3.x as main OS
(yes, Im aware of the lack of security in the ancient WB 3.x )

@bison

Quote:

My number one complaint with Windows 10 is that Microsoft is using it to collect user data. For that reason alone I will not use it.

https://www.phrozensoft.com/2015/09/windows-privacy-tweaker-4

Problem solved.

@vision

That's more like problem mollified, at best.

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@bison

The real problem is people considering a problem if Microsoft collects trivial data that just make some of the system services and programs work properly. Please feel free to replace 'windows' with either 'iOS' or 'Android' to get the same result.

@Jupp3

Quote:

Jupp3 wrote: @Overflow Quote: Aint they able, if they so wish, to do that with any other Windows edition? Yes, they already added the much criticized telemetry tracking as "updates" to Windows 7 and 8 aswell. So if you have system updates set to automatic, you already have it. So, it's not what they "could" do. They already did. Of course they could do more, but that's the most criticized one, since it can't be (normally) turned off on Win10.

The Diagnostic and Telemetry service collects diagnostics information about functional issues on Windows systems that participate in the Windows Customer Experience Improvement Program (CEIP).

Read https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3022345

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@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote: Why hostile? Cloanto is currently interested on the Amiga platform, whereas Hyperion on the post-Amiga one. Yes, in theory Cloanto could port Amiga o.s. 3.x to new architectures, but it requires too much investment for a little company.

That's a bias point of view since your view is restricting Hyperion from improving AmigaOS 3.x 68K aka AmigaOS 4.x PPC while the alternative (e.g. MorphOS PPC) and open source (i.e. AROS 68k/PPC/X86) camps are improving from AmigaOS 3.x.

If Cloanto has it's own bug fixing, function improvements and ports to non-68K CPU, they effectively have their own AmigaOS 4.x development path.

I don't get the anti-Hyperion bias?

The facts, Cloanto is bundling AmigaOS 4.1 FE (Classic Amiga with PPC) with AmigaForever 2016 Plus/Premium packages.

Last edited by Hammer on 13-Jan-2016 at 04:36 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 13-Jan-2016 at 04:30 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 13-Jan-2016 at 04:25 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 13-Jan-2016 at 04:20 AM.

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@bison

Quote:

Working top-down from the DE is possible. That way there are applications right from the start, so the system can be used by people other than developers as it is being developed.

I think the main challenge would be to determine what constitutes a modern Amiga.

Just once it would be nice to see members of the community set aside the political posturing and usual BS to spell out what makes an Amiga an Amiga.

With some vision and will this is a very doable undertaking and one that could benefit everyone.

@cdimauro

Quote:

Yes, in theory Cloanto could port Amiga o.s. 3.x to new architectures, but it requires too much investment for a little company.

Porting of 3.x or 4.x or anything.x is a dead end - even with inexhaustible investment and technical resources.

In an ideal situation a port simply yields the ability to run legacy code that was architected 30 years ago. Existing applications won't work, new applications won't materialize and modern device support will be unthinkable.

The market has proven to be more than capable of sustaining the Amiga legacy systems. The ability to maintain the status quo is fairly certain.

The issue is that things are *not* moving forward. Is there even a vision?

@ne_one: the only thing that I see is... surviving in a nano-niche.

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @cdimauro Quote: cdimauro wrote: Why hostile? Cloanto is currently interested on the Amiga platform, whereas Hyperion on the post-Amiga one. Yes, in theory Cloanto could port Amiga o.s. 3.x to new architectures, but it requires too much investment for a little company. That's a bias point of view since your view is restricting Hyperion from improving AmigaOS 3.x 68K aka AmigaOS 4.x PPC while the alternative (e.g. MorphOS PPC) and open source (i.e. AROS 68k/PPC/X86) camps are improving from AmigaOS 3.x.

Hyperion isn't interested on improving the Amiga o.s. 3.x line. Time ago an amigan asked to release an improved Warp3D (whatever; I don't remember correctly) for 68K, and they told him to move to PowerPC, where the library has already the asked improvements.

In theory they could also port OS4 to the crude 68K machines, but there's no sign of life here.
Quote:

If Cloanto has it's own bug fixing, function improvements and ports to non-68K CPU, they effectively have their own AmigaOS 4.x development path. I don't get the anti-Hyperion bias? The facts, Cloanto is bundling AmigaOS 4.1 FE (Classic Amiga with PPC) with AmigaForever 2016 Plus/Premium packages.

Cloanto is only shipping a OS4 "for Classic". It's like Valve with its Steam: a channel of software distribution.

This has nothing to do with the development of OS4 or a competitor.

So, I think that Cloanto and Hyperion have mutually-exclusive interests, and will continue this way.

@ne_one

Quote:

I think the main challenge would be to determine what constitutes a modern Amiga. Just once it would be nice to see members of the community set aside the political posturing and usual BS to spell out what makes an Amiga an Amiga.

This sort of disharmony transcends the Amiga community; it's part of the human condition. In some ways Unix is a model of this condition realized in software. And it's not all bad, although some of it obviously is.

Linux in the early days managed to avoid this by targeting POSIX. AROS has done the same by targeting AmigaOS 3.1. That helps avoid a lot of disputes because there is a fixed goal. But when you start a project where the sky is the limit, all sort of disagreements arise because everybody has different ideas on how things should be done. There is no agreement on what constitutes an Amiga-like system.

I think the solution to this is to make something that's good enough that other people use it. If someone likes what you've done, then they write something else that complements it and by doing so expand the system. If they don't like what you've done, then they write something that competes with it, and users decide which is the best approach. The end result is a system that is not completely cohesive, but at least it's a system and not just talk. And we are all good at talk.

Quote:

With some vision and will this is a very doable undertaking and one that could benefit everyone.

It is exceedingly difficult, from my experience, to create something that benefits everyone. Whenever I write software, I go into it with the expectation that someone is going to hate it and let me know just how much.

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@cdimauro

Quote:

Hyperion isn't interested on improving the Amiga o.s. 3.x line. Time ago an amigan asked to release an improved Warp3D (whatever; I don't remember correctly) for 68K, and they told him to move to PowerPC, where the library has already the asked improvements. In theory they could also port OS4 to the crude 68K machines, but there's no sign of life here.

PowerPC compatibility with AmigaOS 4.1 FE environment is not a big issue for WinUAE 3.2.2/Amiga Forever 2016, Classic Amiga with PPC, Amiga NG PPC hardware and MorphOS has OS4 emu. The new common runtme environment is AmigaOS 4.x.


Quote:

Cloanto is only shipping a OS4 "for Classic". It's like Valve with its Steam: a channel of software distribution.

For AmigaForever package, Cloanto is selling and shipping AmigaOS 3.X with emulated "Classic" Amiga hardware on behalf of AmigaOS IP owners.

What's the big deal with Cloanto selling AmigaOS 4.1 FE with AF2016?

Last edited by Hammer on 13-Jan-2016 at 03:05 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 13-Jan-2016 at 02:59 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 13-Jan-2016 at 02:55 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 13-Jan-2016 at 02:49 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 13-Jan-2016 at 02:47 PM.

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@tangoone

I think we should get the 68k OS3 source code to NovaCoder and let him clean it all up and make it super efficient....probably take him a couple of weeks! That guy is a genius!

Scott

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@cdimauro

I'm not sure about Warp3D, but MiniGL is open source.

http://aminet.net/package/dev/c/minigl

Warp3D depends on low level API's some of this API's are not the same from AmigaOS4.x to AmigaOS3.x, for example, now you have PCIe, while the old Amiga has Zorro cards, besides I read some where that 3D graphics stuff is sort of hacked on top of 2D graphics on Amiga. This is not the case on AmigaOS4, where things has changed under the hood.

It won't make sense to open source as it old API that should be replaced by something better, the updated Warp3D drivers are not 100% backwards compatible many of old games run badly on it. like PayBack and Heretic II it was a pain to complete on my AmigaONE-XE. And the compatibility depends a lot on graphic card you have, for Example voodoo graphics are more compatible the Radion 9250 cards.

Anyway there are better API's out there that are open source that can be ported to AmigaOS3.x like OpenGL and stuff like that.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 13-Jan-2016 at 05:36 PM.

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