@Hammer

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Hammer wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Hyperion isn't interested on improving the Amiga o.s. 3.x line. Time ago an amigan asked to release an improved Warp3D (whatever; I don't remember correctly) for 68K, and they told him to move to PowerPC, where the library has already the asked improvements. In theory they could also port OS4 to the crude 68K machines, but there's no sign of life here. PowerPC compatibility with AmigaOS 4.1 FE environment is not a big issue for WinUAE 3.2.2/Amiga Forever 2016, Classic Amiga with PPC, Amiga NG PPC hardware and MorphOS has OS4 emu. The new common runtme environment is AmigaOS 4.x.

'til MorphOS switches to x64...
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Quote: Cloanto is only shipping a OS4 "for Classic". It's like Valve with its Steam: a channel of software distribution. For AmigaForever package, Cloanto is selling and shipping AmigaOS 3.X with emulated "Classic" Amiga hardware on behalf of AmigaOS IP owners. What's the big deal with Cloanto selling AmigaOS 4.1 FE with AF2016?

Just money?


@NutsAboutAmiga: I reported what I read long time ago from an amigan, about his request to update Warp3D for 68K. I only did it to show that Hyperion has no interest on supporting the Amiga o.s. 3.1 anymore.

@cdimauro

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I only did it to show that Hyperion has no interest on supporting the Amiga o.s. 3.1 anymore.

Why they should?


Speaking about Warp3D... this piece of software is now under control of A-Eon, so updated Warp3D for 3.x is possible.

@cdimauro

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'til MorphOS switches to x64...

MorphOS X64 edition is not yet available.

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Just money?

Interested with money is not limited to Cloanto. In the end of the day, bills has to be paid. I'm willing to spend $$$ on my old hobby to a certain limit.

Last edited by Hammer on 14-Jan-2016 at 02:50 AM.

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@cdimauro

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the only thing that I see is... surviving in a nano-niche.

If that's the best we can do then the exercise is pointless.

@bison

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This sort of disharmony transcends the Amiga community; it's part of the human condition.

That positioning can be used to excuse any form of inertia.

My point moreover, is that this Amiga "essentials" list is surprisingly short and compares favourably to any effort to modernize the existing OS. That much needs to be agreed upon or nothing will materialize.

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It is exceedingly difficult, from my experience, to create something that benefits everyone.

I'm not maintaining that it's ever worth attempting to do so.

I'm suggesting that the stakeholders in the market could generate meaningful revenue for themselves if they chose to participate in producing a NG OS.

The argument against such an effort is that it will counter the interests of the existing stakeholders. It doesn't. It opens up opportunities.

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the solution to this is to make something...

In a nutshell (and conveniently), that's all that matters.

And if there is no interest or will to do so that's completely acceptable. But at the very least say so.

@bison

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bison wrote: @kolla Quote: Well, nothing forces you to use systemd, there are plenty of alternatives. Yes, but... if systemd is the default init system, the alternatives aren't going to get much love and will probably be poorly supported.

Uh, why? You argumentation goes in circles.

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I don't mind swapping out high-level stuff such as the desktop environment, but I don't want to do that on system-level components -- I'd rather find a system that doesn't use systemd as the default so that whatever it does use is well supported.

OpenRC for example has plenty of support.

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Quote: I am considering a Gentoo/DFB (DragonFly BSD) effort, based around the existing Gentoo/FreeBSD That looks interesting -- I hadn't even heard of the project. I'd look into it, but I'm already up to my eyeballs in another project. As you say, things like sleep are important too. I have this idea that a Workbench-like DE on Dragonfly would be a very fine thing.

Yeah, well... AROS hosted :)

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@ne_one

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ne_one wrote: @kolla Quote: What sucks in all this, is that I have a job I need to pay attention to, and ... sleep! I wish I had more time for all the toys... Perhaps cloning should be the first priority? ;)

Yeah, sending a clone off to work would be cool, haha ;)

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On a more serious note, how do you feel about the potential of DBSD moving forward as the basis of a NGX OS? It sounds like many of the building blocks are starting to come together.

Not sure what you mean with "NGX"? It is still behind FreeBSD in terms of packages, but it is coming along just fine.

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@kolla

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OpenRC for example has plenty of support.

It does on Gentoo, which is one of the reasons I am interested in Gentoo. There's an OpenRC package for Debian, but I don't know how well it is supported -- I'll have to try it for several months to find out.

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@ne_one

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And if there is no interest or will to do so that's completely acceptable. But at the very least say so.

What we've got here is failure to communicate.

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"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

@kolla

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Not sure what you mean with "NGX"? It is still behind FreeBSD in terms of packages, but it is coming along just fine.

ie. in general, the idea of BSD as the foundation of a NG Amiga OS derivative... name your flavour.

@bison

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What we've got here is failure to communicate.

I think it's even worse than that. Apart from some token legal affirmations I just don't think anything is happening. And that's not a negative stance, just the reality.

So on a more positive note, what would be on your list of Amiga NS OS essentials? ;)

@ne_one

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So on a more positive note, what would be on your list of Amiga NS OS essentials?

My off-the-cuff short list:

1. It would have to be open source.

2. It should run on x86-64 or ARMv8; preferably both. I think these are the only two architectures with a future. I'm glad there are two and not just one.

3. It should compile with gcc or clang; again, preferably both.

4. The design should be very clean and minimal, not just a bunch of stuff thrown in because the source code happened to be available under a compatible license.

5. It should have a intuitive and well designed user interface.

This list could be greatly expanded.

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"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

@bison

That's a pretty decent start and definitely big on the intangibles. ;)

And apart from the UI, what about deliverables?

Would you emphasize a clean break or maintain Amiga-specific components like ARexx, the CLI, utilities, API etc.?

@ne_one

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Would you emphasize a clean break or maintain Amiga-specific components like ARexx, the CLI, utilities, API etc.?

There really isn't much open source Amiga software around, so I don't think it's important to preserve exiting APIs, since there's nothing much to port. The Amiga APIs are pre-ANSI C and not that great. I think preserving backward compatibility via emulation would be sufficient.

Qt would be a nice thing to have, since it allows cross-platform software to be ported. I'm not a big C++ fan, but Qt does make sense as a higher-level, non-native API.

It would also be nice to have a subset of the Linux API so that existing open source apps could be ported.

There are open source versions of REXX available, but nowadays I would rather use Python. The important thing is to have hooks in the API so that apps can be scripted and communicate with one another.

There are also a lot of shells, but I don't really like any of them, including bash, and Amiga CLI isn't great either. I think something new would be nice.

But this is all dreaming. I'm working on one small piece of this, and it will probably take most of this year to complete.

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@bison

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bison wrote: @ne_one There really isn't much open source Amiga software around, so I don't think it's important to preserve exiting APIs, since there's nothing much to port. The Amiga APIs are pre-ANSI C and not that great.

What problems causes this to you?
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I think preserving backward compatibility via emulation would be sufficient.

I fully agree.
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Qt would be a nice thing to have, since it allows cross-platform software to be ported. I'm not a big C++ fan, but Qt does make sense as a higher-level, non-native API.

I don't like C++ as a language. And Qt because is a monster: it's like a meta-o.s..
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It would also be nice to have a subset of the Linux API so that existing open source apps could be ported.

The Amiga o.s. is very different from Linux, and Linux APIs are too much archaic (Unix heritage: 40 years ago). It's better to delegate such needed APIs to a proper library, without polluting the APIs of the original o.s..
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There are open source versions of REXX available, but nowadays I would rather use Python. The important thing is to have hooks in the API so that apps can be scripted and communicate with one another.

Exactly. Python is a much more versatile choice.

@cdimauro

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What problems causes this to you?

All my new code is C11. I like the thread support in the language, and I wouldn't want to give up library functions such as asprintf (although that's not hard to implement).

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I don't like C++ as a language. And Qt because is a monster: it's like a meta-o.s..

I don't much care for C++ either. And I agree about Qt being a monster -- it takes over the entire program. I think Copperspice is a better alternative.

http://www.copperspice.com/

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The Amiga o.s. is very different from Linux, and Linux APIs are too much archaic (Unix heritage: 40 years ago).

It's a mixture of old an new. open and fork are 40 years old, but things like dnotify, epoll, futex, inotify, and splice are new.

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It's better to delegate such needed APIs to a proper library, without polluting the APIs of the original o.s..

Yes, I agree.

Last edited by bison on 17-Jan-2016 at 02:07 PM.

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@cdimauro

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Quote: Quote: There are open source versions of REXX available, but nowadays I would rather use Python. The important thing is to have hooks in the API so that apps can be scripted and communicate with one another. Exactly. Python is a much more versatile choice.

AmigaOS4 Python already seamless intergrates with appliactions ARexx ports via it's arexx module, including ful support for stem vars (they appear as nested assoc arrays in python) , as an addistional flexibilty over Rexx 'stemvars' can be set in or passed from any scope the caller chooses.

The same is true of my recent perl port and even my guile port, heck I even have a private custom version of AWebJS that can do it too

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@cdimauro

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Exactly. Python is a much more versatile choice.

Another good choice might be Lua, which already has great support in MorphOS. It's also already inherited some arexx functionality.

@cdimauro

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cdimauro wrote: The Amiga o.s. is very different from Linux, and Linux APIs are too much archaic (Unix heritage: 40 years ago). It's better to delegate such needed APIs to a proper library, without polluting the APIs of the original o.s.

With some more time.......
Linux on Amiga

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@Thread

Well, doesn't this suck. i mean AMIGA has had one battle after another, has so very little development with regards to programmers Vs budgets etc and now it's code base is spread all over the Internet.

Someone really hates AMIGA still!!

it's an old OS now and yet, people are still trying to have it wiped out in one form or another.
i don't see how this can be a good thing, I hope it isn't the final nail in the coffin.. I hope, at the very very least, some more interest is created and somehow helps further development of the newer code base.
I hope the code base becomes more accessable on cheaper, easily obtainable modern hardware at some stage, however and most importanlty, I hope the development doesn't stop.

Sucks. Just down and out about it. Lost Bowie, lost Lemmie, and now this. 2016 is angry.

You know what, i don't come on AMIGA sites too often anymore. The lack of AMIGA dev and the price for expensive HW makes me sad.
All that said, this takes the cake. I may not agree with the AMIGA direction with "custom $$ city HW", I really dislike how the AMIGA OS, once great, now gets branded a "hobby" project that doesn't need to justify price (not what the original intent was, it was supposed to be for the people, not the elite hobby market) however, this made me very sad today. Not a fan. Nope, this is (insert expletive here)

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