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      /  Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
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PosterThread
Rob 
Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 18-Mar-2016 21:38:29
#1 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5731
From: S.Wales

I've seen plenty of comments on why software using unsupported instructions would either fail or be too slow but I've yet to see anyone try and build up a picture of what impact that would have in the real world.

If we take the worst case scenario, where software using those instructions simply fails, what software would we be left with and what would have to be fixed to make the system attractive to those interested in using it to run OS4.

The obvious area to look at first is software that doesn't require an FPU to run. This way we can build up a list of current software that is almost guaranteed to run without a hiccup and this starts building up a picture.

Next area is to try and determine what FPU software uses the unsupported instructions and what FPU software doesn't. Could a SnoopDos like reporting tool be written that simply detect when those instructions are used and reports back what task used those instructions? If so, we can use current systems build up a full picture of what software should work and what might fail to work or run too slow due to trapping and emulation.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 18-Mar-2016 21:49:23
#2 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 907
From: Unknown

@Rob

Quote:

Rob wrote:

but I've yet to see anyone try and build up a picture of what impact that would have in the real world.


Wrong. The picture is there for you to look at, if you browse those old threads. It was thoroughly discussed, and the consequences is well established.

Please don't do this.

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g01df1sh 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 18-Mar-2016 21:51:38
#3 ]
Super Member
Joined: 16-Apr-2009
Posts: 1540
From: UK

@TRIPOS

As the saying goes "dont knock it until you have tried it"

_________________
A1200 ACA1232 128MB Indivison MkIICr
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RPi3 Emulating C64 ZX Atari PS BBC
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g01df1sh 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 18-Mar-2016 21:52:51
#4 ]
Super Member
Joined: 16-Apr-2009
Posts: 1540
From: UK

@g01df1sh

Some news on progress would be bloody nice though. Why did they even annonce it if it is way of being ready for the public.

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Yasu 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 18-Mar-2016 22:09:42
#5 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 13-Oct-2015
Posts: 224
From: Stockholm, Sweden

@g01df1sh

I guess they where too optimistic about the AOS release date.

_________________
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"Free speech includes other peoples right to offend you."

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iggy 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 18-Mar-2016 22:13:20
#6 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@TRIPOS

Quote:
don't knock it until you try it


Some of my gay friends say that too.
I love those guys too, but not enough to want a greasy rear end.

Look, the specs suck.
We had already decided that that particular variant of the e500 core would not work well in an Amiga environment.
Why was it used?
Price, that is the only reason I can see.

Buy it if you want, but you will be getting Aeon's slowest product (that they have yet created), the only board to use a 32 bit cpu (instead of a 64 bit cpu).

And its going to cost more than many of you think. The cost of the cpu is a minor part of the overall cost of developing a new system.

Several hundred for a P1022 based system?

If WINUAE gets SAM460 emulation, you are going to be stuck with a board that can't outperform that, let alone compete with higher end PPC systems.


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Rose 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 18-Mar-2016 22:25:51
#7 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 551
From: Unknown

@iggy

You are mixing this thread to something that seeks for honest answers.

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pavlor 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 18-Mar-2016 22:27:16
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8815
From: Unknown

@iggy

Quote:
If WINUAE gets SAM460 emulation, you are going to be stuck with a board that can't outperform that, let alone compete with higher end PPC systems.


How?

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pavlor 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 18-Mar-2016 22:33:36
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8815
From: Unknown

@Rob

Quote:
The obvious area to look at first is software that doesn't require an FPU to run. This way we can build up a list of current software that is almost guaranteed to run without a hiccup and this starts building up a picture.


WinUAE/OS4 is in the same situation: slooooooooooow FPU (softfloats). Only few applications are affected - lame, Blender and of course 3D games. For tasks like webbrowsing, simple office work (AmiCygnix) or most emulators, this really is not problem.

I hope we will see benchmarks of FPU emulation solution (lame and Quake 3 to name few) before Tabor goes for sale.

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wawa 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 18-Mar-2016 22:49:23
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6103
From: Unknown

@iggy

Quote:
I love those guys too, but not enough to want a greasy rear end.

that depends of what position/role you are to take. but then i wouldnt go more into it, as it might be read as implying something here.

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fishy_fis 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 18-Mar-2016 23:08:36
#11 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1826
From: Australia

There's actually somewhat of a parallel between the rpi3 and the tabor boards.
Similar ipc, not a tradional fpu, but rather simd extensions to compensate and similar clock rates.
The rpi has the advantage of better video drivers though.

If you want to know how tabor will perform checking out rpi3 benchmarks and taking off a few % (more for gfx intensive stuff) will be somewhere in the ballpark.

p.s. the above comparison is only really valid when using single threaded software/benchmarks. When multiple threads are used the rpi3 will destroy it.

I just hope the price is reasonable. Hard to sell a machine that is outdone by a low-end $35 soc board.

Last edited by fishy_fis on 18-Mar-2016 at 11:18 PM.
Last edited by fishy_fis on 18-Mar-2016 at 11:09 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 18-Mar-2016 23:13:21
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8815
From: Unknown

@fishy_fis

We know, how fast is Tabor for integer, FPU (native) and FPU (softfloats) applications. Betatesters already did many benchmarks under Linux.

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OlafS25 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 18-Mar-2016 23:50:32
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5321
From: Unknown

@pavlor

we know how fast special compiled applications on linux run on it

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Hans 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 19-Mar-2016 5:31:05
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4876
From: New Zealand

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@fishy_fis

We know, how fast is Tabor for integer, FPU (native) and FPU (softfloats) applications. Betatesters already did many benchmarks under Linux.


I must have missed that. Is there a brief summary of results anywhere?

Hans

_________________
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gregthecanuck 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 19-Mar-2016 6:12:41
#15 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Dec-2003
Posts: 825
From: Vancouver, Canada

@Rob

From the booting preview shown on Trevor's latest blog I suspect these will be the stages of development:

- get the operating system booting (have preview now)
- get the complete operating system running cleanly as installed (likely in progress)
- get the FPU trap system running (likely in progress)
- possible run-time patching of ELF binaries? (a suggestion I made on a different thread)

I suspect a lot of work will go into stripping out unnecessary FPU calls or pushing them out to abstractions where necessary.

Can't see too much exciting or mysterious here. It's simply a matter of man-hours.

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Cool_amigaN 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 19-Mar-2016 7:13:16
#16 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2006
Posts: 1178
From: Athens/Greece

@OlafS25

Do we? :P I have brifly used Linux on Tabor and it was awfully/painfully slow. It took several minutes even to boot into the OS. Launching the browser was dead slow (twice slower than Firefox on a Sam440). My experience come from 2,5 months ago so things could have been improved but at that time I could not consider it even a toy.

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pavlor 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 19-Mar-2016 8:28:13
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8815
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:
we know how fast special compiled applications on linux run on it


Benchmarked were also PowerPC32 applications, so your point is moot (for mostly integer stuff).

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pavlor 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 19-Mar-2016 8:29:13
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8815
From: Unknown

@Cool_amigaN

Quote:
My experience come from 2,5 months ago so things could have been improved but at that time I could not consider it even a toy.


There was some public presentation this year? Interesting.


Edit: I assume Linux booted from Micro SD card, right?

Last edited by pavlor on 19-Mar-2016 at 08:34 AM.

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pavlor 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 19-Mar-2016 8:33:01
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8815
From: Unknown

@Hans

Quote:
I must have missed that. Is there a brief summary of results anywhere?


Betatesters published many benchmarks in this thread.

Performance was as expected:
Integer performance comparable to 1-1.2 GHz G3 (faster memory, but only 256 kB L2 cache).
FPU performance (native SPE) comparable to 600 MHz G3 (eg. in lame).
FPU performance (softfloats) so slow there is no real world comparison.

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Massi 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 19-Mar-2016 9:10:19
#20 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2011
Posts: 516
From: Rome, Italy

@Rob

Already discussed
http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=7559&start=0

A really questionable hardware in my opinion, unattractive performances. Hopefully with a very cheap price (I doubt it), you get what you pay.

No, no, no.

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