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Rob
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Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it. Posted on 18-Mar-2016 21:38:29
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Elite Member  |
Joined: 20-Mar-2003 Posts: 6395
From: S.Wales | | |
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| I've seen plenty of comments on why software using unsupported instructions would either fail or be too slow but I've yet to see anyone try and build up a picture of what impact that would have in the real world.
If we take the worst case scenario, where software using those instructions simply fails, what software would we be left with and what would have to be fixed to make the system attractive to those interested in using it to run OS4.
The obvious area to look at first is software that doesn't require an FPU to run. This way we can build up a list of current software that is almost guaranteed to run without a hiccup and this starts building up a picture.
Next area is to try and determine what FPU software uses the unsupported instructions and what FPU software doesn't. Could a SnoopDos like reporting tool be written that simply detect when those instructions are used and reports back what task used those instructions? If so, we can use current systems build up a full picture of what software should work and what might fail to work or run too slow due to trapping and emulation. |
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TRIPOS
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Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it. Posted on 18-Mar-2016 21:49:23
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Super Member  |
Joined: 4-Apr-2014 Posts: 1205
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Rob
Quote:
Rob wrote:
but I've yet to see anyone try and build up a picture of what impact that would have in the real world. |
Wrong. The picture is there for you to look at, if you browse those old threads. It was thoroughly discussed, and the consequences is well established.
Please don't do this. |
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g01df1sh
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Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it. Posted on 18-Mar-2016 21:51:38
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Super Member  |
Joined: 16-Apr-2009 Posts: 1782
From: UK | | |
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| @TRIPOS
As the saying goes "dont knock it until you have tried it"
_________________ A1200 ACA1232 128MB Indivison MkIICr Elbox empty Power Tower RPi3 Emulating C64 ZX Atari PS BBC Wii with Amiga emulation Vampire v4 SA |
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g01df1sh
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Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it. Posted on 18-Mar-2016 21:52:51
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Super Member  |
Joined: 16-Apr-2009 Posts: 1782
From: UK | | |
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| @g01df1sh
Some news on progress would be bloody nice though. Why did they even annonce it if it is way of being ready for the public. _________________ A1200 ACA1232 128MB Indivison MkIICr Elbox empty Power Tower RPi3 Emulating C64 ZX Atari PS BBC Wii with Amiga emulation Vampire v4 SA |
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Yasu
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Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it. Posted on 18-Mar-2016 22:09:42
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Regular Member  |
Joined: 13-Oct-2015 Posts: 224
From: Stockholm, Sweden | | |
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| @g01df1sh
I guess they where too optimistic about the AOS release date. _________________ Amiga Forum - Sweden's best Amiga Magazine
My MorphOS Blog
"Free speech includes other peoples right to offend you." |
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iggy
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Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it. Posted on 18-Mar-2016 22:13:20
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Joined: 20-Oct-2010 Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA | | |
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| @TRIPOS
Quote:
don't knock it until you try it |
Some of my gay friends say that too. I love those guys too, but not enough to want a greasy rear end.
Look, the specs suck. We had already decided that that particular variant of the e500 core would not work well in an Amiga environment. Why was it used? Price, that is the only reason I can see.
Buy it if you want, but you will be getting Aeon's slowest product (that they have yet created), the only board to use a 32 bit cpu (instead of a 64 bit cpu).
And its going to cost more than many of you think. The cost of the cpu is a minor part of the overall cost of developing a new system.
Several hundred for a P1022 based system?
If WINUAE gets SAM460 emulation, you are going to be stuck with a board that can't outperform that, let alone compete with higher end PPC systems.
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Rose
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Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it. Posted on 18-Mar-2016 22:25:51
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Cult Member  |
Joined: 5-Nov-2009 Posts: 982
From: Unknown | | |
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| @iggy
You are mixing this thread to something that seeks for honest answers.
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pavlor
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Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it. Posted on 18-Mar-2016 22:27:16
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Elite Member  |
Joined: 10-Jul-2005 Posts: 9660
From: Unknown | | |
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| @iggy
Quote:
If WINUAE gets SAM460 emulation, you are going to be stuck with a board that can't outperform that, let alone compete with higher end PPC systems. |
How? |
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pavlor
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Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it. Posted on 18-Mar-2016 22:33:36
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Elite Member  |
Joined: 10-Jul-2005 Posts: 9660
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Rob
Quote:
The obvious area to look at first is software that doesn't require an FPU to run. This way we can build up a list of current software that is almost guaranteed to run without a hiccup and this starts building up a picture. |
WinUAE/OS4 is in the same situation: slooooooooooow FPU (softfloats). Only few applications are affected - lame, Blender and of course 3D games. For tasks like webbrowsing, simple office work (AmiCygnix) or most emulators, this really is not problem.
I hope we will see benchmarks of FPU emulation solution (lame and Quake 3 to name few) before Tabor goes for sale. |
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wawa
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Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it. Posted on 18-Mar-2016 22:49:23
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Elite Member  |
Joined: 21-Jan-2008 Posts: 6259
From: Unknown | | |
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| @iggy
Quote:
I love those guys too, but not enough to want a greasy rear end. |
that depends of what position/role you are to take. but then i wouldnt go more into it, as it might be read as implying something here. |
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fishy_fis
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Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it. Posted on 18-Mar-2016 23:08:36
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Elite Member  |
Joined: 29-Mar-2004 Posts: 2168
From: Australia | | |
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| There's actually somewhat of a parallel between the rpi3 and the tabor boards. Similar ipc, not a tradional fpu, but rather simd extensions to compensate and similar clock rates. The rpi has the advantage of better video drivers though.
If you want to know how tabor will perform checking out rpi3 benchmarks and taking off a few % (more for gfx intensive stuff) will be somewhere in the ballpark.
p.s. the above comparison is only really valid when using single threaded software/benchmarks. When multiple threads are used the rpi3 will destroy it.
I just hope the price is reasonable. Hard to sell a machine that is outdone by a low-end $35 soc board. Last edited by fishy_fis on 18-Mar-2016 at 11:18 PM. Last edited by fishy_fis on 18-Mar-2016 at 11:09 PM.
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pavlor
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Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it. Posted on 18-Mar-2016 23:13:21
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Elite Member  |
Joined: 10-Jul-2005 Posts: 9660
From: Unknown | | |
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| @fishy_fis
We know, how fast is Tabor for integer, FPU (native) and FPU (softfloats) applications. Betatesters already did many benchmarks under Linux. |
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OlafS25
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Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it. Posted on 18-Mar-2016 23:50:32
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Elite Member  |
Joined: 12-May-2010 Posts: 6472
From: Unknown | | |
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| @pavlor
we know how fast special compiled applications on linux run on it |
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Hans
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Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it. Posted on 19-Mar-2016 5:31:05
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Elite Member  |
Joined: 27-Dec-2003 Posts: 5116
From: New Zealand | | |
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| @pavlor
Quote:
pavlor wrote: @fishy_fis
We know, how fast is Tabor for integer, FPU (native) and FPU (softfloats) applications. Betatesters already did many benchmarks under Linux. |
I must have missed that. Is there a brief summary of results anywhere?
Hans
_________________ Join the Kea Campus - upgrade your skills; support my work; enjoy the Amiga corner. https://keasigmadelta.com/ - see more of my work |
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gregthecanuck
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Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it. Posted on 19-Mar-2016 6:12:41
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Cult Member  |
Joined: 30-Dec-2003 Posts: 846
From: Vancouver, Canada | | |
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| @Rob
From the booting preview shown on Trevor's latest blog I suspect these will be the stages of development:
- get the operating system booting (have preview now) - get the complete operating system running cleanly as installed (likely in progress) - get the FPU trap system running (likely in progress) - possible run-time patching of ELF binaries? (a suggestion I made on a different thread)
I suspect a lot of work will go into stripping out unnecessary FPU calls or pushing them out to abstractions where necessary.
Can't see too much exciting or mysterious here. It's simply a matter of man-hours.
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Cool_amigaN
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Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it. Posted on 19-Mar-2016 7:13:16
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Joined: 6-Oct-2006 Posts: 1229
From: Athens/Greece | | |
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| @OlafS25
Do we? :P I have brifly used Linux on Tabor and it was awfully/painfully slow. It took several minutes even to boot into the OS. Launching the browser was dead slow (twice slower than Firefox on a Sam440). My experience come from 2,5 months ago so things could have been improved but at that time I could not consider it even a toy. _________________
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pavlor
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Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it. Posted on 19-Mar-2016 8:28:13
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Elite Member  |
Joined: 10-Jul-2005 Posts: 9660
From: Unknown | | |
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| @OlafS25
Quote:
we know how fast special compiled applications on linux run on it |
Benchmarked were also PowerPC32 applications, so your point is moot (for mostly integer stuff). |
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pavlor
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Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it. Posted on 19-Mar-2016 8:29:13
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Elite Member  |
Joined: 10-Jul-2005 Posts: 9660
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Cool_amigaN
Quote:
My experience come from 2,5 months ago so things could have been improved but at that time I could not consider it even a toy. |
There was some public presentation this year? Interesting.
Edit: I assume Linux booted from Micro SD card, right?Last edited by pavlor on 19-Mar-2016 at 08:34 AM.
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pavlor
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Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it. Posted on 19-Mar-2016 8:33:01
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Elite Member  |
Joined: 10-Jul-2005 Posts: 9660
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Hans
Quote:
I must have missed that. Is there a brief summary of results anywhere? |
Betatesters published many benchmarks in this thread.
Performance was as expected: Integer performance comparable to 1-1.2 GHz G3 (faster memory, but only 256 kB L2 cache). FPU performance (native SPE) comparable to 600 MHz G3 (eg. in lame). FPU performance (softfloats) so slow there is no real world comparison.  |
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Massi
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Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it. Posted on 19-Mar-2016 9:10:19
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Cult Member  |
Joined: 2-Feb-2011 Posts: 628
From: Rome, Italy | | |
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