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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  OpenGL ES 2 development continues (was: stopped)
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OlafS25 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 5-Jul-2016 14:48:49
#41 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@Daytona675x

Ok I will definitely listen to the interview and count "critics time" we will see if your statements are true

stubborness

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cgutjahr 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 5-Jul-2016 15:07:24
#42 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 969
From: Unknown

@Daytona675x

As requested by you, I listend to the entire Interview a second time, searching for the "positive things" you had to say about Nova. In the entire, 29 minute long discussion, you had to say one positive thing about Nova:

Quote:

Gnerally, it's a good thing they're doing this for the Amiga. It's a big step in the right direction - but...

That's the only positive statement regarding Nova during the entire conversation. Everybody who speaks German can easily verify that, so I would appreciate if you would stop claiming otherwise.

You're right, I didn't include that - simply because it's completely insignificant compared to the amount of bashing going on. And it's not the only thing I left out - realizing you were mostly venting your anger ("lost a lot of time [...] and money"), I also left out most of the uglier stuff: In addition to the examples I already mentioned - like you claiming several times A-EON lied to you - you also describe Nova as a "pile of shards" twice and state that it's "god-awful to program". I tried to concentrate on the technical examples you mention, most of which you even illustrated by using examples - which simply makes this newsworthy stuff.

I'll update my news item with a link to the response on your blog - because contrary to what people keep claiming, I actually try to be as fair as possible. Other than that, I don't think there's much left to discuss here.

(Edit: typo)

Last edited by cgutjahr on 05-Jul-2016 at 03:10 PM.

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wawa 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 5-Jul-2016 15:15:11
#43 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

i had to test if i can reply here from this ip.. ;)

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Hypex 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 5-Jul-2016 15:20:43
#44 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Cheese

I've never heard of it! I knew about Nova. But isn't OpenGL ES only slighty better than MiniGL? I mean it's still a poor mans OpenGL. We need a real GL!

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OlafS25 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 5-Jul-2016 15:26:12
#45 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@Hypex

as I understand it they promise similar features as OpenGL but neither OpenGL nor Warp3D, something completely new with a different API. To make porting easier they offer this OpenGL wrapper.

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OlafS25 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 5-Jul-2016 15:26:38
#46 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@wawa

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wawa 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 5-Jul-2016 15:32:03
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

daytona made pretty clear in the podcast that opengl es2 isnt well suited for porting stuff from other platforms as its a mobile targeted platform, where most software is closed source.

it may though be used to develop for os4 and then to port to other mobile devices. (however as we know, its exactly the limited developer resources, that are responsible for almost no os4 native software)

i think its rather a remarkable conclusion, that went under in the whole turmoil.

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OlafS25 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 5-Jul-2016 15:37:51
#48 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@wawa

but for what purpose would you want to use OS4 to develop for mobile platforms? I have at least two windows applications that support iPhone, Android and different desktop platforms. Using OS4 for that makes no sense at all. And for the few developers left, who would create games and port it to other platforms?

But that was not the discussion... the argument was that one side claims that from a basically positive interview only negative parts were used, the other sides claims it was a negative interview with close to zero positive statements.

I will listen to it too to make a judgement there

Last edited by OlafS25 on 05-Jul-2016 at 03:42 PM.

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Rob 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 5-Jul-2016 15:54:16
#49 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6344
From: S.Wales

@cgutjahr

Did you contact Daniel, Hans and Matthew for comment prior to publishing this article?

If you did and they weren't prepared to speak about the issues raised in the article then you are not really at fault. If that is not the case then this is just bad journalism on your part.

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OlafS25 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 5-Jul-2016 15:57:40
#50 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@Rob

you mean he first asked if they approve the content?

I do not think that happened... he simply listened to the statements and made the news item

What you propose sound more like wallstreet journal or new york times

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Rob 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 5-Jul-2016 16:04:28
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6344
From: S.Wales

@OlafS25

Quote:
you mean he first asked if they approve the content?


No of course not.

Quote:
I do not think that happened... he simply listened to the statements and made the news item


I am asking because I don't know what his process was when writing this article.

Quote:
What you propose sound more like wallstreet journal or new york times


I don't tend to read those publications but if they fully investigate their stories from all angles prior to publication then yes.

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OlafS25 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 5-Jul-2016 16:10:21
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@Rob

i do not know the internal processes of big publications but I very much assume that they invest much time in it (and be it only to avoid to be sued by someone)

Regarding Gutjahr and this article, only he can say how he created it. As I wrote, I assume he listened to it like anyone else and wrote the article. You can of course send a request to someone commenting what you found out, that often happens but is not always the case. On our level we talk about hobby level. I guess if the article would have praised a-eon you would not ask the same, wouldn´t you?

Last edited by OlafS25 on 05-Jul-2016 at 04:13 PM.

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ASiegel 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 5-Jul-2016 16:10:53
#53 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2013
Posts: 212
From: Unknown

@Rob

Quote:
Did you contact Daniel, Hans and Matthew for comment prior to publishing this article? If you did and they weren't prepared to speak about the issues raised in the article then you are not really at fault. If that is not the case then this is just bad journalism on your part.

Not at all. He was not publishing information gained from a third party, heresay or any untrusted source, afterall. The article merely summarized what Daniel shared voluntarily during a podcast recording that is publicly available for download / streaming.

If President Obama criticizes President Putin during a public speech, as he has in the past, do you have to first contact President Putin for his view before you can report it? Of course not.

In fact, I find it worth mentioning that amiga-news.de is literally the only English (and German) Amiga-related website I am aware of that still makes any effort to actively source, research and, if necessary, update stories. Everyone else is essentially just publishing fantastically sounding press releases and announcements without any research whatsoever.

Last edited by ASiegel on 05-Jul-2016 at 04:12 PM.

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geit 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 5-Jul-2016 17:08:45
#54 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-May-2006
Posts: 102
From: Germany

@Rob

Cgutjahr quoted Daytonas spoken words and not some random text. If you say something in semi "live" media, you cannot undo or denie that.

From what I read at least the german version was quite accurate, from what i heared Daytona say during the Boings World interview.

I even asked myself during the interview at several points if Daytona was aware about the fact that the interview got recorded for a PodCast, but since he wasn´t at BoingsWorld for the first time, he was aware.

One of these situations was AFAIR when he named the "Warp 3D Nova" stuff "Eigengrütze", which is a word I instantly loved. But it is far from being a complement for any "work" a business partner has accomplished, especially if you want to have other working releationships in the future.

The topic of this thread is wrong. Daytona said he finished the wrapper as far as it was possible at the time and called his work done, which I consider correct. He talked about a three week job taking far longer because of problems with "Warp 3D Nova", so he did what he could do and dropped the work on it afterwards, because he was simply done with he was paid for.

There may have been some things gone wrong during their business relationship, but putting all that into the public is simply bad behaviour. The stuff was said and nothing can undo the harm done by this interview.

Trying to row back and blame others is not the right way ether.

The fun part is that people like cgutjahr are now the (blue) devil, because he just scripted the interview.

Quote:
tommysammy on 5-Jul-2016 5:35:38

CGutjahr is every day searching for a fault to make a big story on his side.
In germany he is laughing number.Nobody have respect towardst of him. He is a circus clown, a nobody


A Medievil witch hunt as reaction like in post from tommy sammy is quite primitive, too. Especially if those people are able to speak german and could listen to the podcast themselfs. (again the person same posting).

The poster of that post does not even realize he demonized cgutjahr for something he himself proves to be. A blind follower, a lemming.

Last edited by geit on 05-Jul-2016 at 05:21 PM.
Last edited by geit on 05-Jul-2016 at 05:15 PM.
Last edited by geit on 05-Jul-2016 at 05:13 PM.
Last edited by geit on 05-Jul-2016 at 05:12 PM.
Last edited by geit on 05-Jul-2016 at 05:10 PM.

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BoingBear 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 5-Jul-2016 18:22:33
#55 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Oct-2015
Posts: 140
From: Unknown

@Hans & Daniel & AmigaKit & A-Eon,

It is obvious that both Hans and Daniel are very talented programmers, though perhaps they have different opinions on how things should be done sometimes.

There is no doubt that AmigaKit & A-Eon are doing great work to support future development, and that employing two of the most talented programmers who care about programming for Amiga and Amiga inspired platforms is a great thing to do, so I hope all misunderstandings have been resolved, and that Daniel's frustration and disappointment has been addressed, so future collaboration can occur.

It is regrettable that Daniel vented his frustrations in public, but we have all made mistakes in our lives, and I am sure he will learn from this.

It will be truly disappointing for all AmigaOS, MorphOS, & AROS users, if there is any further obstacles or bad feelings which would prevent Daniel from working with Hans, or anything that would prevent Daniel from working for A-Eon on future software projects. Let's all learn from this, calm down, and move forward.

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Overflow 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 5-Jul-2016 19:27:04
#56 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1628
From: Norway

@BoingBear

I dont see it as regrettable that Daniel publicly expressed/vented his frustration/opinions/discoveries with Nova.
Anyone that remember his review of DarkEngine will remember that he is very TO the point and not trying to dress up anything to be more functional than it is. His no bullshit approach is refreshing to be honest.
Sadly AmiDark didnt take critisism well, and it all fell to pieces.
Hans (and Aeonkit) seems much more pragmatic about it, and make no excuses to the fact Nova is work in progress. Sounds to me they accept feedback.

Daniel could spend 29 minutes doing nothing but praising Nova for whatever works, but from what ive seen from him hes more focused on how to IMPROVE any software hes dealing with, and as such, its only natural his interview is critical (in a CONSTRUCTIVE sense).

Ofcouse in Amigaland its often taken with the worst meaning possible.

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Rob 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 5-Jul-2016 19:50:20
#57 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6344
From: S.Wales

@Overflow

Agreed.

A-EON got the code and Daniel got paid. Those are the two most important parts of the equation.

Did anyone else noticed that Daniel has also updated the R100/R200 driver for Warp3D.

Link

Note that for this effect to work on AmigaOS4 and R100 / R200 you need the not yet released fresh Warp3D drivers that I fixed / extended accordingly. But I suppose those will be out before Wings is done

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ChrisH 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 5-Jul-2016 19:58:52
#58 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6679
From: Unknown

@Hypex Quote:
But isn't OpenGL ES only slighty better than MiniGL? I mean it's still a poor mans OpenGL. We need a real GL!

I've never done any proper 3D programming, but my casual layman's understanding is that it is OpenGL cut-down for CPU & memory limitations of mobile platforms (and so ideal for Amigas too), but still with fancy modern features. (It's also a LOT easier learn, from what I've read, as they got rid of years of accumulated cruft that OpenGL is infamous for.)

If you see cool 3D games on Android (and to me they look nearly as good as on a desktop PC from a year or two ago), I believe they are all written using OpenGL ES.

I have no idea how many open-source games are written using OpenGL ES, but I presume it would still be easier to port an OpenGL game to OpenGL ES than to our ancient Mini GL. (I even recall reading coder(s) talking about issues porting OpenGL games to OpenGL ES, but I can't recall where.)

I would also presume that Trevor/A-Eon had some specific ideas in mind when they commissioned an OpenGL ES wrapper.

P.S. It's a shame the title of this thread hasn't been renamed to be more accurate.

Last edited by ChrisH on 05-Jul-2016 at 08:18 PM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 05-Jul-2016 at 08:11 PM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 05-Jul-2016 at 08:10 PM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 05-Jul-2016 at 08:01 PM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 05-Jul-2016 at 07:59 PM.

_________________
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phoenixkonsole 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 5-Jul-2016 20:00:25
#59 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Nov-2009
Posts: 1770
From: Unknown

I have listened to it right now and find it more like a amusing form of describing normal problems when doing pioneer work in Amiga land.
I don't think Daniel bashed. It is just a colorful way of describing things.
And I find everyone should be allowed to talk about such things because it is still about enjoying it.

There was just a small window where cg used a flaming title for the news item which again invited the nasty anonymous posters on Amiga-news.

Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 05-Jul-2016 at 08:00 PM.

_________________
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TRIPOS 
Re: OpenGL ES 2 development stopped
Posted on 5-Jul-2016 20:23:58
#60 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1204
From: Unknown

Quote:
Georg wrote:
I listened to that podcast interview and cgutjahr summary about it is much closer to what I remember about it than what is said in clarification.


No!

Trolls ... nonsense news-item ... trolling ... The fact that the news has been reported here by Cheese means it's just trolling ...

Quote:
OlafS25 wrote:
different people are listening to it and understand it like Gutjahr


... trolls ... out of context ... trolls with an evil agenda ... he is a circus clown, a nobody ...

Quote:
wawa wrote:
i listened to the podcast myself. and the complete part what concerns warp3d nova sounds almost exactly as described in the aw.net article.


... trolls ... just blind MorphOS name followers ... trolls ...

Quote:
cgutjahr wrote:
I listend to the entire Interview a second time, searching for the "positive things" you had to say about Nova. In the entire, 29 minute long discussion, you had to say one positive thing about Nova ... That's the only positive statement regarding Nova during the entire conversation. Everybody who speaks German can easily verify that, so I would appreciate if you would stop claiming otherwise.


... Is you the ... troll ... unethical ... biased ... the second most evil man in the world ... trolls trolling ...

Quote:
ASiegel wrote:
The article merely summarized what Daniel shared voluntarily during a podcast recording that is publicly available for download / streaming.


... trolls making selective misquotes ... biased distortion ... trolling ...

Quote:
geit wrote:
From what I read at least the german version was quite accurate, from what i heared Daytona say during the Boings World interview.


... unethical trolling ... bad journalism ... didn't even check with Daniel, Hans Matthew at the marketing department prior to publishing it ... trolling ...

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