@Zylesea

Quote:

But it doesn't run MorhOS native.

Emulated PowerPC performance is (in most cases) better than Efika...

@pavlor

Quote:

5 years old PC I use right now is faster than any AmigaOS 4/MorphOS computer in existence...

True, but then the i7 laptop I'm currently typing on is faster than any current AmigaOne or MorphOS system, unless I try to run PPC software on it.
That just sounds like a good argument for a move to X64.

And those AmigaOne and MorphOS PPC systems are many times faster than the 603e or 604e cpus you seem to want to hang on to and a lot more powerful than an X64 emmulating a 603e/604e enhanced Amiga.

Its all up to what you value (a great George Harrison quote btw), and OCS, ECS, AGA and Paula compatibility aren't that important to me.
THAT can be emulated.
The cpus we are currently using in PPC NG hardware?
Not really that well.

Of course, you could always argue that you should still with fpga enhanced legacy systems or fpga based boards, but they are still slower than NG hardware.

So which is it, slow enhanced legacy equipment or X64 systems?

My stuff already spans legacy to PPC to X64, so I just switch between whatever works best for what I'm doing.
But there always seems to be a flaw when one of you insists I should give up one platform or another.

Last edited by Beans on 24-Sep-2016 at 10:11 PM.
Last edited by Beans on 24-Sep-2016 at 10:09 PM.
Last edited by Beans on 24-Sep-2016 at 10:08 PM.
Last edited by Beans on 24-Sep-2016 at 10:03 PM.

_________________
Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"

@Beans

Quote:

and a lot more powerful than an X64 emmulating a 603e/604e enhanced Amiga.

WinUAE/OS4 on my computer is faster than SAM460 in some benchmarks (eg. MPlayer). Integer performance is comparable to G3 500 MHz with superb memory throughput.

Quote:

But there always seems to be a flaw when one of you insists I should give up one platform or another.

Don´t give up! My A1200 lives in peace with my WinUAE box and both will welcome (I hope sooner than later) Tabor in their computer familiy.

@pavlor

Yep, I get that.
I keep a CD32 under my television, and other hardware is located throughout the house.

That's probably why full legacy compatibility isn't that vital to me (although I wish someone would do an affordable CD32 accelerator, because SX32s are insanely high priced).

The results with the SAM don't surprise me.
I think I saw someone mention that it performs integer calculations at somewhere around the level of a 600 MHz G3. So a PC would do some things faster AND emulate legacy hardware better.

Although I don't think Tabor will offer enough of a jump if you already have a SAM.
Then again, it will (hopefully) cost a fraction of what the X5000 is going to demand.
And the SAM460 has some compromises when it comes to your choice of SATA, sound, and video.

BTW - I haven't bothered to check, does Tabor have a built-in gpu?

_________________
Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"

@Beans

Quote:

BTW - I haven't bothered to check, does Tabor have a built-in gpu?

i wouldn't call it a GPU. there is a LCD controller on the SoC, but the performance isn't something you'd want to live with. A1222 customers will definitely want to use their PCIe slot for a graphics card.

-- eliyahu

_________________
"Physical reality is consistent with universal laws. When the laws do not operate, there is no reality. All of this is unreal."

@eliyahu

Quote:

eliyahu wrote: @Beans Quote: BTW - I haven't bothered to check, does Tabor have a built-in gpu? i wouldn't call it a GPU. there is a LCD controller on the SoC, but the performance isn't something you'd want to live with. A1222 customers will definitely want to use their PCIe slot for a graphics card. -- eliyahu

It's probably best described as a frame buffer.

@Beans

Quote:

Beans wrote: There's a reason the version of MorphOS that supports that hardware is not longer updated.

But it is being upgraded. the very latest MorphOS version does run on PowerUP. It's just not being released! But you can see it in shows and gatherings etc (and reports from those of course)...


@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote: @wawa Quote: i tried once and i couldnt get it to boot. im over with it now. Forget about decade old MorphOS 1.4.5, upgrade to AmigaOS 4.1 FE!

...on two decades old PowerUP H/W...




@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @Zylesea No Amiga chipset on EFIKA, it don't fully replace a Phase5 card, in that sense. ELFIKA is hardware replacement, it not a hardware upgrade,

From a 68k Amiga enthusiast's perspective, that's absolutely true. And so is AmigaOne for that matter, it's a H/W replacement, not a H/W upgrade. And still from a 68k Amiga enthusiast's perspective, so is OS4 as well! If you are into Amiga computers, you have absolutely no use for OS4 whatsoever, what you want is Workbench from Cloanto (which version depending on your need and gear). And it is for these people that any upcoming Phase5 products could perhaps be of interest. For them, "PPC" was nothing but a bubble that grew out from Amiga's body at the virge of Amiga entering the retro era, detached, and then drifted away with the wind, out of their scope.

Anyway, I think we have interesting times ahead in the upcoming post-PPC era. With PPC stranded and left in the backwaters of time, and with the #?miga PPC OS's never really reaching full "NG" status on the PPC anyway and now to be decaying in PPC's toomb, two new streams of developments are seemingly forming:

1) MorphOS is going for true "NG" on a (or more than one) CPU architecture with relevance today and in the future. This is great for us who wants evolution based on the old Amiga ways, us who are not really interested in the retro stuff, but instead have hopes of being able to use the new system in a modern way, now and in the future. Will be what "Amiga NG" once promised to be, but never became.

2) Real Amiga's are also getting a new life fueled into it. Cloanto managed to secure all aspects of the Workbench (for any and all of the Amiga models). This is great! Individual computers are about to release an entire new Amiga AGA model, using original chips but also with many improvements. Also great! Perhaps even using the brand "Commodore"? New A1200 cases are coming. Great as well! Now a new "Phase5" company will perhaps come as well, with new-production of classics (and new developments as well?). Heck even the C64 scene is going to have two new models of new motherboards, and three new cases (in cool colors) made from the original C64-C molds.

Both these new streams of developments means purification and streamlining according to their true core values and reasons to exist. The "PPC NG" kind of muddied the waters. It set out to be "Next Generation Amiga", but ended up being neither what "Next Generation" enthusiasts had hoped for, nor being of any relevance to the "real Amiga" enthusiasts. It became stuck in the middle, offering too little to too few. And darn expensive yet poorly specced and underperforming H/W. So now when PPC (and related OS's) fades away in history, nothing is no longer stuck in the middle, muddying the waters with vague promises of an unrealistic future (that will never happen anyway), choices will become about either 68k/real/retro or "NG NG". Interesting times ahead!

Last edited by TRIPOS on 25-Sep-2016 at 01:04 PM.

@TRIPOS

Quote:

...on two decades old PowerUP H/W...

That´s the Amiga way!

Quote:

MorphOS is going for true "NG" on a (or more than one) CPU architecture with relevance today and in the future.

NG for sure, but many of us fear what will remain from the Amiga part.

Quote:

choices will become about either 68k/real/retro or "NG NG"

Don´t forget current "NG" (OS4 and of course AROS) you dismissed so easily...

Quote:

Interesting times ahead!

Without doubt!

@pavlor

Quote:

Don´t forget current "NG" (OS4 and of course AROS) you dismissed so easily...

AND, no one said MorphOS PPC was disappearing just because an X64 fork is in the works.

Things EVOLVE.

When legacy starts doing that again, let us know.

_________________
Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"

@TRIPOS

Quote:

1) MorphOS is going for true "NG" on a (or more than one) CPU architecture with relevance today and in the future. This is great for us who wants evolution based on the old Amiga ways, us who are not really interested in the retro stuff, but instead have hopes of being able to use the new system in a modern way, now and in the future. Will be what "Amiga NG" once promised to be, but never became.

The main problem, the thing that has held back Amiga OS4, AROS and MorphOS from becoming as you say what "Amiga NG once promised to be" is a lack of software. X86/X64 isn't some kind of magic bullet that will somehow make a huge amount software appear out of the ether.
MorphOS on commodity hardware would certainly be a positive move but there may be a long transition period before current PPC users are convinced to switch. If QEMU is ported and can provide a viable legacy environment for current applications then it will help a lot but if it isn't faster than a Mac Mini then it's going to have limited appeal and may not be worth the effort.

Quote:

2) Real Amiga's are also getting a new life fueled into it. Cloanto managed to secure all aspects of the Workbench (for any and all of the Amiga models). This is great! Individual computers are about to release an entire new Amiga AGA model, using original chips but also with many improvements. Also great! Perhaps even using the brand "Commodore"? New A1200 cases are coming. Great as well! Now a new "Phase5" company will perhaps come as well, with new-production of classics (and new developments as well?). Heck even the C64 scene is going to have two new models of new motherboards, and three new cases (in cool colors) made from the original C64-C molds.

Cloanto have made some small enhancement to the Wortkbench release but it hardly constitutes what you are trying to imply. Likewise with Jens' license from Hyperion which grants him access to the source code for the IDE driver. Neither could be considered major development and are merely done for the convenience of the end users.

Amiga Reloaded is a slightly enhanced A1200. It doesn't in any way push things forward. That's not to say it isn't a great product and something to get excited about. The opportunity to replace ageing hardware but Minimig, FPGA arcade, Chameleon etc have already been there.

Quote:

Both these new streams of developments means purification and streamlining according to their true core values and reasons to exist. The "PPC NG" kind of muddied the waters.

Statements like that make you appear to treat Amiga as some kind of pseudo religion.

@Rob

Quote:

Statements like that make you appear to treat Amiga as some kind of pseudo religion.

bingo. you got it in one.

-- eliyahu

_________________
"Physical reality is consistent with universal laws. When the laws do not operate, there is no reality. All of this is unreal."

@eliyahu

Quote:

some kind of pseudo religion

Because the only true religion is the Church of the Subgenius.
(Although I'm not sure if I don't believe in the God of Meat).

_________________
Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"

@pavlor

Quote:

Emulated PowerPC performance is (in most cases) better than Efika...

Would you care to do some benchmarks? The ones for Efika are well known...

@recedent

Quote:

Would you care to do some benchmarks? The ones for Efika are well known...

Like these? (my posts 329, 330, 358, 370, 372)

Note I used two computers at that time (faster desktop and slower notebook), I hope I mentioned this in respective benchmarks.


More recent benchmarks I did (all on Core i 5-2500K):
WinUAE 3.1.0 Beta 11 / OS41FE-debug
4.Work:Utils/dnetc> mplayer -benchmark -nosound -ao null -vo null -lavdopts skiploopfilter=none "Work:Utils/mplayer/generic/Prometheus - Trailer.mp4"
MPlayer UNKNOWN-4.4.3 (C) 2000-2010 MPlayer Team

BENCHMARKs: VC: 340.407s VO: 0.020s A: 0.000s Sys: 3.240s = 343.667s
BENCHMARK%: VC: 99.0514% VO: 0.0058% A: 0.0000% Sys: 0.9427% = 100.0000%


WinUAE 3.2.0 Beta 6 / OS41FE-debug
5.Work:Utils/lame-399-5/bin> lame Work:Utils/lame-399-5/bin/AKsack.wav
LAME 3.99.5 32bits (http://lame.sf.net)

0.3642x


WinUAE 3.2.0 Beta 16 64 bit / OS41FE-debug
5.Work:Utils/dnetc> dnetc -benchmark

distributed.net client for AmigaOS Copyright 1997-2009, distributed.net
RC5-72 PowerPC assembly by Malcolm Howell and Didier Levet
Enhancements for 604e CPUs by Roberto Ragusa
RC5-72 Altivec and OGR assembly by Didier Levet
Please visit http://www.distributed.net/ for up-to-date contest information.
Start the client with '-help' for a list of valid command line options.


dnetc v2.9109-518-CTR-10121712 for AmigaOS (OS 4.1, PowerPC).
Please provide the *entire* version descriptor when submitting bug reports.
The distributed.net bug report pages are at http://bugs.distributed.net/

[Dec 07 19:35:28 UTC] Automatic processor type detection found
a PowerPC 604e processor.
[Dec 07 19:35:28 UTC] OGR-NG: using core #0 (KOGE 3.1 Scalar).
[Dec 07 19:35:47 UTC] OGR-NG: Benchmark for core #0 (KOGE 3.1 Scalar)
0.00:00:16.41 [4,934,003 nodes/sec]
[Dec 07 19:35:47 UTC] RC5-72: using core #6 (MH 1-pipe 604e).
[Dec 07 19:36:07 UTC] RC5-72: Benchmark for core #6 (MH 1-pipe 604e)
0.00:00:17.13 [4,165,415 keys/sec]


68k JIT ON
6.Share:Rozbaleno/dnetc_68k> dnetc_68k -benchmark

distributed.net client for AmigaOS Copyright 1997-2009, distributed.net
RC5-72 68K assembly by Malcolm Howell and John Girvin
Please visit http://www.distributed.net/ for up-to-date contest information.
Start the client with '-help' for a list of valid command line options.


dnetc v2.9109-518-CTR-10121712 for AmigaOS (OS 4.1, 68K).
Please provide the *entire* version descriptor when submitting bug reports.
The distributed.net bug report pages are at http://bugs.distributed.net/

[Dec 07 19:34:05 UTC] OGR-NG: using core #0 (FLEGE 2.0 68000).
[Dec 07 19:34:26 UTC] OGR-NG: Benchmark for core #0 (FLEGE 2.0 68000)
0.00:00:16.42 [1,515,520 nodes/sec]
[Dec 07 19:34:26 UTC] RC5-72: using core #0 (MH 1-pipe 68020/030).
[Dec 07 19:34:44 UTC] RC5-72: Benchmark for core #0 (MH 1-pipe 68020/030)
0.00:00:16.18 [995,228 keys/sec]


68k JIT Off
6.Share:Rozbaleno/dnetc_68k> dnetc_68k -benchmark

distributed.net client for AmigaOS Copyright 1997-2009, distributed.net
RC5-72 68K assembly by Malcolm Howell and John Girvin
Please visit http://www.distributed.net/ for up-to-date contest information.
Start the client with '-help' for a list of valid command line options.


dnetc v2.9109-518-CTR-10121712 for AmigaOS (OS 4.1, 68K).
Please provide the *entire* version descriptor when submitting bug reports.
The distributed.net bug report pages are at http://bugs.distributed.net/

[Dec 07 19:40:00 UTC] OGR-NG: using core #0 (FLEGE 2.0 68000).
[Dec 07 19:41:10 UTC] OGR-NG: Benchmark for core #0 (FLEGE 2.0 68000)
0.00:00:34.40 [35,432 nodes/sec]
[Dec 07 19:41:10 UTC] RC5-72: using core #0 (MH 1-pipe 68020/030).
[Dec 07 19:41:32 UTC] RC5-72: Benchmark for core #0 (MH 1-pipe 68020/030)
0.00:00:16.36 [12,154 keys/sec]


Blender Benchmark (test.blend): 01:08:38.62

RAGEMEM v0.37 - compiled 11/06/2010

CPU: 604e 9.516 @ 289 Mhz
Caches Sizes: L1: 32 KB - L2: none - L3: none
Cache Line: 32

CPU
MAX MIPS: 4356

L1
READ32: 2483 MB/Sec
READ64: 4077 MB/Sec
WRITE32: 2404 MB/Sec
WRITE64: 4066 MB/Sec

RAM
READ32: 1984 MB/Sec
READ64: 2934 MB/Sec
WRITE32: 1934 MB/Sec
WRITE64: 2919 MB/Sec
WRITE: 1047 MB/Sec (Tricky)

VIDEO BUS
READ: 199 MB/Sec
WRITE: 185 MB/Sec

Last edited by pavlor on 25-Sep-2016 at 08:41 PM.

@Rob

Quote:

Rob wrote: The main problem, the thing that has held back Amiga OS4 and MorphOS from becoming as you say what "Amiga NG once promised to be" is a lack of software.

What prevented modern features was basically the self-inflicted conflicting requirement to strive for 100% compatibility with the old, in a next generation product. That meant for example big endianness, meaning PPC, which perhaps made sense back in 1997 or so when the direction was set, but turned to a curse in 2005, if not before. It also meant that no modern features, such as real memory protection, true SMP, later 64-bit computing, etc, was possible. And these were things many people expected. In addition to modern, contemporary H/W with enough horse power to actually be used for contemporary computer stuff, of course.

Quote:

X86/X64 isn't some kind of magic bullet that will somehow make a huge amount software appear out of the ether.

No new interesting PPC chips are coming. The e6500 core will not be improved. No follow up cores will come to replace it. And no new SoC chips (with upgraded on-chip peripheral controllers, like new PCI-E etc) using that old core will come either. It has all been cancelled from the road maps.

Running old Amiga 68k S/W was not a way forward for "NG". Personal Paint and other stuff is not the answer to the S/W problem. No-one is investing in a €3000 "NG" machine (of 2005 level performance) in order to run S/W like Personal Paint. I can see how Amiga retro enthusiasts likes to use old S/W, but they run it on real Amigas (or perhaps on emulated real Amigas). But "NG", while aiming for as good Amiga compatibility as possible, could still never be 100% compatible, which puts it out of the scope for the retro crowd (besides not having the retro flare from real Commodore machines). And at the same time, the aim for backwards compatibility prevented real NG features, which put it out of the scope for the people hoping for a credible Next Generation Amiga evolution.

So with all facts on hand, now in 2016, it turned out that aiming for Amiga backwards compatibility on PPC was a bad move.

PPC is basically dead.

X86/64 may indeed not be a magic bullet, but it is very much alive. And it's as powerful as it gets. And cheap (or at least good bang/buck ratio). And easily available. And it won't go away. That's good for something, right?


Quote:

Cloanto have made some small enhancement to the Wortkbench release but it hardly constitutes what you are trying to imply --- Amiga Reloaded is a slightly enhanced A1200. It doesn't in any way push things forward. That's not to say it isn't a great product and something to get excited about. --- Neither could be considered major development and are merely done for the convenience of the end users.

It seems you completely misread what I was trying to say. I was not talking about some "evolution" of Amiga 68k, rather the opposite. Evolution isn't what the users wants, evolution is the opposite of retro, and everyone knows it won't happen. I was talking about Cloanto owning the OS, every aspect of it, all versions, including all documentation and books released by Commodore. They have done a monumental work collecting it all under one roof, from Workbench 1.0 to Workbench 3.X. You can actually buy Workbench 1.3, 2.04, and 3.1 as new products. Today, in 2016. In various shapes and forms, including real Floppy's. And I'm not talking about some left-over stock at some survived dealer from the past, but stuff published today! If this isn't to be considered a great thing for users of real Amiga's then I don't know what is. And those yellowing, cracked old cases? New ones are coming! Broken H/W, leaked batteries, caps. New H/W is coming. Real H/W, not some FPGA emulator, but real H/W using real chips that also has improvements and can easily be used with monitors today, etc. Maybe you don't understand. Maybe you don't want to understand, since you probably are one of the ones who could ask real Amiga users "Why haven't you upgraded to OS4 yet?"


Quote:

Quote: Both these new streams of developments means purification and streamlining according to their true core values and reasons to exist. The "PPC NG" kind of muddied the waters. Statements like that make you appear to treat Amiga as some kind of pseudo religion.

That was actually funny, coming from you and eliyahu!

It was not about religion at all, it was a comment coming from marketing regarding product placement and customer segments, and how any and all products must come from a real customer need to be able to exist. How trying to position an NG system to be both "old" and "new" at the same time lead to it not being any of them. Missed opportunities. Now when PPC dies, things will become much clearer, enforced, with focus on either retro (which situation has indeed improved a lot lately) or NG (truly NG this time, nothing holding it back). IMHO this is good news for everyone!

@TRIPOS

Quote:

No new interesting PPC chips are coming

Quote:

PPC is basically dead.

Power8 is here, Power9 is under development.
Third party chips using both are under development.
That is not "dead".

PPCs are no longer being further developed at Applied Micro or NXP.

So, the e5500 and e6500 cores are basically dead ends (as are both versions of the e500).

Last edited by Beans on 25-Sep-2016 at 11:45 PM.

_________________
Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"

@Beans

Quote:

Beans wrote: @TRIPOS Quote: No new interesting PPC chips are coming Quote: PPC is basically dead. Power8 is here, Power9 is under development. Third party chips using both are under development. That is not "dead".

PowerPC was a consumer/embedded subset of the earlier POWER architecture. Power are very expensive server (mainly) chips, whose USP's and main features simply cannot be utilized by Amiga OS. Some PowerPC models were indeed better suited. Amiga OS would end up in a single thread on a single core. Seeing AeonKit's price policy on previous and announced machines, a Power8 based computer from them would provably cost around... what, €10.000? So this is your bright future then?

Power8's competitor is Xeon, and it's not winning. IBM's late strategies regarding the Power business model signals End Of Line IMHO. A last try, to try something different. Spread the risk, spread the costs. See how it will survive. And speaking of Xeon, competition may come from different and perhaps unexpected directions in the future?

http://www.cavium.com/newsevents-Cavium-Announces-ThunderX2.html

But none of it is relevant in an Amiga context. Perhaps a future MorphOS could technically be made to utilize these kinds of CPU's, but then again, why? Why would any of us want to use these kind of expensive server chips, when there are so many others, better suited for desktop and laptops?

Quote:

PPCs are no longer being further developed at Applied Micro or NXP. So, the e5500 and e6500 cores are basically dead ends (as are both versions of the e500).

That's what I'm talking about.



No new H/W will come, at least nothing forward or slightly interesting...

@TRIPOS

Well, do you get we live in AmigaWorld, where end-of-life CPU doesn´t mean end... just look at our 68k faction - still alive 20 years after demise of the 68k architecture.

Your logic would be fine in real world, but this is AmigaWorld.

@TRIPOS

Quote:

PowerPC was a consumer/embedded subset of the earlier POWER architecture.

I'm afraid that I don't agree with you on that idea. They are ALL Power derived cpus.
AND as far as your "humble" opinion goes, that's what it is opinion.

And no, ARM is not that strong a contender for the server market.

Further, what interests you obviously doesn't work for me, or vice versa.
So what?

_________________
Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"