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      /  Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
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wawa 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 31-Oct-2018 14:53:56
#481 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@bison

Quote:

bison wrote:

Yes, or, alternatively, one could rewrite the parts that cannot be legally be open sourced.


already happened (or more) -> AROS..

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paolone 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 31-Oct-2018 14:55:47
#482 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1066
From: Unknown

@bison

Quote:
Yes, or, alternatively, one could rewrite the parts that cannot be legally be open sourced.


Since many parts might be replaced with AROS ones, at least under the terms of an APL/BSD-compatible license, much of the work should already be done. Obviously, this means the release of 'openable' parts under a compatible license (no GPL), which, by the way, is an option the AROS dev team already considered when they chose a "industry and business friendly" license instead of an ideological viral one.

The bigger problem here, you see, is neither a phylosophical nor a technical one: there are people who invested big money in these intellectual properties, and they legitimately do not agree in making them publicly available.

The only option we have, to open those sources, is buying them. The other problem we have is understanding who's presumed to sell them to us. Not counting the laughably oversized amount of money those people could ask for it.



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wawa 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 31-Oct-2018 15:05:32
#483 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@paolone
]Quote:
Since many parts might be replaced with AROS ones, at least under the terms of an APL/BSD-compatible license, much of the work should already be done.


also, such "combined" distributions already happened, just to mention olafs "aros vision" incorporating material he could legally obtain from trustwothy sources.

Quote:
The only option we have, to open those sources, is buying them.

considering the complexity of matter, who owns ands licenses what, i wouldnt consider that option secure. besides what would we want to buy out, that isnt implemented in aros?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 31-Oct-2018 16:17:06
#484 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11357
From: Norway

@bennymee

Quote:
Reading about Amino at Amiga-news.de, former Amiga inc ?(), did Amino ever bring something or do they only have trademarks ? Who are the people behind Amino these days ?


As Hyperion was given exclusive right to AmigaOS3.1 to develop AmigaOS4.x, in all time Amino / Amiga Inc has had time to develop AmigaOS3.x or fix bug, they have done a single thing! Only when they got woken up, suddenly they won't void the settlement agreement. Because Hyperion like to do what Amino / Amiga Inc has not done. Since "Workbench 3.9 in December 2000 by German company Haage & Partner", 18 years ago, man It should have become abandon ware by now, if was not for the interest of community.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 31-Oct-2018 at 06:01 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 31-Oct-2018 16:26:48
#485 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11357
From: Norway

@kolla

Quote:
there is no rule or law that says the whole operating system must remain as one codebase under one license, sold as one.


This exactly way AmigaOS3.1.4 does not contain any part of AmigaOS3.5 or 3.9, that was developed by Hagge and Partner, fragmentation of licenses make also hard to sell or distribute the OS as a complete package.

As for your argument add-ons to OS by 3rd parties has always been the case, there is 1000's of packages to improve the OS, add recycle bin, start menus, hacks to add textures to borders, replacement libraries, and patches and hack like MCP, tools demon. Replacement icon editors.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 31-Oct-2018 16:36:43
#486 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11357
From: Norway

@wawa

Absolutely there is AROS, just becouse things are open source, free does not mean developers/people queue up to work for free.

Normally there is motivation factor, personal challenge, some personal incentive, something to learn, or some tool or thing you need to make to run busses or earn money. Or bounty. Software you can sell.

In case of Amos Kittens it's nostalgia that is the motivation, being able run old programs or games, maybe some new one too. So there is reword at end of all that work.

Time is pressures to most people and time after work is often dedicated to family for most people.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 31-Oct-2018 at 04:45 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 31-Oct-2018 at 04:41 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 31-Oct-2018 at 04:37 PM.

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bison 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 31-Oct-2018 16:53:03
#487 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1600
From: N-Space

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
Absolutely there is AROS, just becouse things are open source, free does not mean developers/people queue up to work for free.

Some will, but not all. I think AROS would do better if:

1. The main source tree (not just forks and/or branches) were on Github or Gitlab.

2. It had a generic BSD license instead of the slightly weird APL.

To get people to work for reasons other than money, one has to clear as many obstacles as possible.

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hth313 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 31-Oct-2018 17:24:22
#488 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-May-2018
Posts: 152
From: Delta, Canada

@bison

Quote:

bison wrote:
Some will, but not all. I think AROS would do better if:

1. The main source tree (not just forks and/or branches) were on Github or Gitlab.

2. It had a generic BSD license instead of the slightly weird APL.

To get people to work for reasons other than money, one has to clear as many obstacles as possible.


I can only speak for myself and going a bit off-topic, but after trying to do a little AROS with my limited time, I encountered several obstacles.

1. Time, this is perhaps the most fundamental one.

2. Github or Gitlab would help me at least. Now I have made some minor changes and there is no easy way to publish them. A model that made it easy to contribute would help, and someone to handle the pull request to help newbies on the code base would be great. Yes, this SVN vs Git is a can of worms, but having worked (suffered) in my daily job from SVN for a decade, it is nothing I long to do in my spare time.

3. I do not care so much about the license, not that I looked at it in depth. A simple permissive license helps of course.

4. A main web page that makes things simple for the casually interested visitor. Some basic welcome information, a screen shot or two, motivation on why and simple to find downloads for major platforms, like x86 live, Amiga 68k and RPi.

5. The build system is a love and hate topic of mine. Maybe it just needs some minor help, maybe it should have better separation of duties, I do not know. There are however many of things that can and do go wrong, as with most build systems.

To summarize, simplify, focus on reference platforms and use Git would be my advice.

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wawa 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 31-Oct-2018 19:12:23
#489 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@bison

Quote:

bison wrote:
I think AROS would do better if:

1. The main source tree (not just forks and/or branches) were on Github or Gitlab.

things come and go. version control services too. there are aros mirrors on github, as you obviously know, and it has never been a problem to push updates up to the main svn repo. so this is just another excuse, if it got fulfilled there would be another. who really wants to help, he will simply do.

Quote:
2. It had a generic BSD license instead of the slightly weird APL.

perhaps. but as you see from amiga source leakage subjects and similar, people are ready to pirate stuff if that suits them, no matter legality or license. the legal stuff is just a drama factor, good to talk about on forums. and apl is so far i know just a copy and as good as mpl, which is a recognized major license. so what?

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wawa 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 31-Oct-2018 19:22:59
#490 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@hth313

Quote:
To summarize, simplify, focus on reference platforms and use Git would be my advice.


as i wrote above it wont be done, especially just because a newcomer demands it. get in contact with devs, introduce yourself and let them know you, find some mentor who guides you in and reviews and pushes your changes for the start. i have seen peole come and go, some pretty soon, different level of abilities, so even though understand that people want easy entry, its also on them, to aligne themselves with the general effort, especially there are some who put years of their life into it.

if you want contacts i can name you few. but you can also register on dev ml (currently offline, it seems)..

aros new site:
https://ae.amigalife.org
or slack:
https://amigaports.slack.com/

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wawa 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 31-Oct-2018 20:08:32
#491 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@hth313
aros dev ml seems really down at the moment.. sigh.
however, if you have observations, snippets, patches to test, i might be able to help some. eventually forward them or even commit if i receive positive reviews.

besides we could discuss, maybe with michal, who actively uses a github for of aros repo, if and how to setup or maintain a mirror.

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bison 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 31-Oct-2018 21:01:01
#492 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1600
From: N-Space

@hth313

Quote:
3. I do not care so much about the license, not that I looked at it in depth.

I haven't looked at it much either, which is why I am wary of it. I don't know much about law, and if I did read it I would probably understand less than half of it. This is why I like common licenses such as the GLP v2 and BSD variants -- they are in widespread use, and the issues surrounding them are well-known.

BTW, I also have past sufferings with SVN, and even worse, CVS.

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bison 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 31-Oct-2018 21:06:40
#493 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1600
From: N-Space

@wawa

Quote:
so this is just another excuse, if it got fulfilled there would be another. who really wants to help, he will simply do.

Participation in a project is not an on/off switch. A person with termendous devotion may persevere no matter what the difficulties are, but a majority of people are going to look at the positives and negatives and make a rational decision as to whether this is the best use of their time. All I'm suggesting is that the project would find more volunteers if it increased the positives and minimized the negatives.

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wawa 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 31-Oct-2018 21:19:18
#494 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@bison

Quote:
Participation in a project is not an on/off switch. A person with termendous devotion may persevere no matter what the difficulties are, but a majority of people are going to look at the positives and negatives and make a rational decision as to whether this is the best use of their time. All I'm suggesting is that the project would find more volunteers if it increased the positives and minimized the negatives.


thats theoretical. may be that the current ways of networking alike facbook, whazzup,or twitterz are more effective. i have lately be advocating slack aros channel by marlon. but, considering motivation, even though some other ways might have attracted more public, would they stay and contribute? im not sure. i have put some effort into giving newcomers guidance and i have observed the opposite later on.

imho, who wants, will find a way to support a project, all personal shortcomings considered, like me. you just need to convince yourself to contribute.

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kolla 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 1-Nov-2018 6:56:50
#495 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1481
From: Trondheim, Norway

@K-L

Quote:

Quote:
Hyperion is and has always been a disaster for the community

Did someone give you the right to talk in our name ?


"Your name" huh? That's rich! So did someone give you that right?

Do you even know what "community" means? It is perfectly possible to have an opinion about what is good or bad for a community without speaking "on behalf" of the community.

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K-L 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 1-Nov-2018 8:16:50
#496 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2006
Posts: 1362
From: Oullins, France

@kolla

I don't care. I don't (and never will) recognize myself in what you say and since I'm also part of the community, I think yod better speak for youself when giving your opinion instead of speaking for all of us.

I (We?) am (are?) used to what you say (always the same thing) pretending you know what is right or wrong for everybody.

You've been acting like this for years, always criticizing everything regarding Hyperion on AW. What have you done for the"community" except this?

_________________
AmigaONE X1000, 2GB, Sapphire Radeon HD 7700
Webmaster of Amiga-NG.org (French)

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kolla 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 1-Nov-2018 9:52:02
#497 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1481
From: Trondheim, Norway

@K-L

I never, ever speak on behalf of the community, and neither are you - we all speak for ourselves, and we are all part of the community. This should be blatantly obvious for most of us, but clearly not everyone.

I am only criticize Hyperion for things that are worthy of criticism, that you prefer that everyone shut up and do not rug the boat (while it sinks deeper and deeper) is your issue, not mine.

Last edited by kolla on 01-Nov-2018 at 09:55 AM.

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K-L 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 1-Nov-2018 13:19:37
#498 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2006
Posts: 1362
From: Oullins, France

@kolla

Yes, you only criticize Hypersion for things that you think (this point is very important) are worthy to criticize.

As I told you, most of us are used to your way of doing things and how you say them (and this is not because you'll repeat them forever that they will become magically the truth).

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paolone 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 1-Nov-2018 14:41:12
#499 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1066
From: Unknown

@K-L

I totally miss your point.

In first place, kolla said "this is damaging the community". It's his own opinion, he didn't speak on behalf od the community. He only expressed his opinion about something that can damage the whole community.

Then YOU answered "it's your opinion, don't talk on behalf of US": please notice that you are the one talking about "us". "Us" means YOU and ME and K-L and everyone being part of this community.

You're doing the exact mistake you're accusing Kolla about, while he absolutely didn't.

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K-L 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 1-Nov-2018 16:35:38
#500 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2006
Posts: 1362
From: Oullins, France

@paolone

You are right indeed, it's why I wrote "Most of us" in my second answer, this means I do not include you if you don't want to.

You are absolutely free to agree with kolla (if it can bring you AROS supporters ) as I'm totally free to disagree with both of you.

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