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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
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Raffaele 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 15-Feb-2017 10:00:31
#81 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1906
From: Naples, Italy

@Hypex

Quote:

Actually in this particular case I don't think it would be. AmigaOS has always had gadgets in the title bar. The title text could simply be another text gadget. It almost sounds trivial.


I am not a coder but I suppose Cairo libraries could implement easily that feature from what I saw of its charateristics... Or using GTK library Pango...

As far as I remember just check for Gtklabel widget...

Last edited by Raffaele on 15-Feb-2017 at 10:08 AM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 15-Feb-2017 at 10:05 AM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 15-Feb-2017 at 10:01 AM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 15-Feb-2017 at 10:01 AM.

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Trixie 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 15-Feb-2017 11:04:51
#82 ]
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Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 2089
From: Czech Republic

@broadblues

Quote:
Bear in mnd that requesters.class requesters display formatted text and as such the contents cannot be displayed by a simple "text field" certaily not anything a simple as a string.gadget (or even texteditor.gadget).

Requesters based on the ReAction Requester Class display their text using the Label Image. Image classes do support IM_HITTEST but I'm not sure if this is enough to implement text selection.

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broadblues 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 15-Feb-2017 12:14:16
#83 ]
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Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4446
From: Portsmouth England

@Hypex

Quote:


Actually in this particular case I don't think it would be. AmigaOS has always had gadgets in the title bar. The title text could simply be another text gadget. It almost sounds trivial.


Think for a moment about what currently happens when you drag on the window title...

There already *is* a gadget in the window dragbar, the dragbar itself, so putting a string gadget in there to allow cut and paste would somewhat conflict with existing functionality.

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broadblues 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 15-Feb-2017 12:17:33
#84 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4446
From: Portsmouth England

@Chris_Y

Quote:

Quote:


Quote:
Simplest way for requester might be a popup menu to offer a "Copy Requester Text" option.


Simplest way would be th Windows way - accept and listen for the standard "Copy" keyboard shortcut, and copy the text to the clipboard when it is pressed.


Yes that would work.

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Hypex 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 15-Feb-2017 13:04:46
#85 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Raffaele

Quote:
I am not a coder but I suppose Cairo libraries could implement easily that feature from what I saw of its charateristics... Or using GTK library Pango...


I suppose it could. But I don't think we need to use any third party libraries. Since AmigaOS has the internals we need. Unless we use it for AmiCygnix apps.

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Hypex 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 15-Feb-2017 13:10:38
#86 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@broadblues

Quote:
There already *is* a gadget in the window dragbar, the dragbar itself, so putting a string gadget in there to allow cut and paste would somewhat conflict with existing functionality.


In that case it can be given a label. Which would suit since on dragable windows the drag bar gadget fits in that space for the title bar.

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Hypex 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 15-Feb-2017 13:38:52
#87 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@All

Okay in the meantime I have another one.

I think AmigaOS4 should follow on from AmigaOS2 and become more modular with user support files. Mountlist was migrated into DOS Drivers. And Prefs were split into different components.

I think this should be applied to start up scripts, paths and assigns. As it stands still using single files for this is a rigid and hard to manage approach.

Instead of one User-Startup script have a Startup directory that contains files to execute startup scripts.

Paths could be added to a DEVS:Paths directory either with a file containing the path or a directory link.

Assigns could be added to a DEVS:Assigns directory using the same system. A file named after the assign containing the path or a directory link to where the assign should go named after the assign.

This would make things easier to manage both for user and programmer. No need to edit one rigid text file any longer not need a specialist tool to do so. The different components needed can be organised in a modular approach. And simple scripting can install or remove components.

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Daedalus 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 15-Feb-2017 15:41:59
#88 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1680
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@broadblues

Quote:

broadblues wrote:

Bear in mnd that requesters.class requesters display formatted text and as such the contents cannot be displayed by a simple "text field" certaily not anything a simple as a string.gadget (or even texteditor.gadget). Simplest way for requester might be a popup menu to offer a "Copy Requester Text" option.

Indeed, but there's nothing stopping a new class being created that allows selection of text and displaying of formatted text.

Quote:
Everything past a teleprinter, renders text as graphics to some degree, and you might even argue that the dotmatrix is a form of bitmap too....

Fair enough. I was thinking of text-based systems like DOS and 8-bit machines where text modes stored the screen contents as an array of characters rather than a bitmap. Yes, they were rasterised for the screen in the end, but the OS, such as it was, could identify every character in every position on the screen. Once you switch to a rastport/bitmapped display, that capability is gone, which is the fundamental issue we have with copying text.

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broadblues 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 15-Feb-2017 16:38:27
#89 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4446
From: Portsmouth England

@Hypex

Quote:


@All

Okay in the meantime I have another one.

I think AmigaOS4 should follow on from AmigaOS2 and become more modular with user support files. Mountlist was migrated into DOS Drivers. And Prefs were split into different components.

I think this should be applied to start up scripts, paths and assigns. As it stands still using single files for this is a rigid and hard to manage approach.


You are basically advocating the linux init.rc init.d/ type approach, even if maybe a less complex variant. I find that curious as you are doing it the name of user friendlyness but I'd say, init.d is anything but, need a whole setup tools to properly manage it.

Quote:

Instead of one User-Startup script have a Startup directory that contains files to execute startup scripts.


How is that simpler for anyone?

There two kinds of users those that understand how to edit users-startup and those that don't, if the second kind are daunted by a single script, how much more so are they going to be by a directory full of the damn things? And then say there a bug inone that breaks your startup, how much more difficult is debuging that going to be?


Quote:

Paths could be added to a DEVS:Paths directory either with a file containing the path or a directory link.

I just shudder at the complexity of that, getting the things in the right order etc, you need numbers file names or somthing, a step closer to init.rc and user scaring complexity!


Quote:

Assigns could be added to a DEVS:Assigns directory using the same system. A file named after the assign containing the path or a directory link to where the assign should go named after the assign.


There are a couple of assign managers out there, they would be a better route to go for those that can't cope with the simpler user startup approach.

Quote:

This would make things easier to manage both for user and programmer. No need to edit one rigid text file any longer not need a specialist tool to do so. The different components needed can be organised in a modular approach. And simple scripting can install or remove components.


I think you are deluded if you think the above is easier The installer tools effortlessly handles updating the user-startup without the prgramming careing about writing custom init.rc scripts etc...

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broadblues 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 15-Feb-2017 16:55:19
#90 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4446
From: Portsmouth England

@Daedalus

Quote:

by Daedalus on 15-Feb-2017 15:41:59

@broadblues

Quote:

broadblues wrote:

Bear in mnd that requesters.class requesters display formatted text and as such the contents cannot be displayed by a simple "text field" certaily not anything a simple as a string.gadget (or even texteditor.gadget). Simplest way for requester might be a popup menu to offer a "Copy Requester Text" option.

Indeed, but there's nothing stopping a new class being created that allows selection of text and displaying of formatted text.



That's amoderately complex job though, but such a class capable of siplaying complex formatted text and input handling too (could add link cklicking etc to the things to be detected) would be quite useful in it's own right. Not someting you want everywhere on a GUI though for efficiencies sake.

Quote:

Quote:
Everything past a teleprinter, renders text as graphics to some degree, and you might even argue that the dotmatrix is a form of bitmap too....

Fair enough. I was thinking of text-based systems like DOS and 8-bit machines where text modes stored the screen contents as an array of characters rather than a bitmap. Yes, they were rasterised for the screen in the end, but the OS, such as it was, could identify every character in every position on the screen. Once you switch to a rastport/bitmapped display, that capability is gone, which is the fundamental issue we have with copying text.


Agreed, that's really the point I was making initially.

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Xenic 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 15-Feb-2017 17:25:43
#91 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2004
Posts: 1246
From: Pennsylvania, USA

@Hypex
Quote:
I think AmigaOS4 should follow on from AmigaOS2 and become more modular with user support files. Mountlist was migrated into DOS Drivers. And Prefs were split into different components.

On the other hand, the WBStartup directory has been consolidated into WBStartup prefs. Instead of dragging a bunch of programs into WBStartup directory, you now add them with WBStartup prefs. I'm with broadblues on this suggestion. It would just complicate things.

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Raffaele 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 15-Feb-2017 17:51:59
#92 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1906
From: Naples, Italy

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:
@Raffaele

Quote:
I am not a coder but I suppose Cairo libraries could implement easily that feature from what I saw of its charateristics... Or using GTK library Pango...


I suppose it could. But I don't think we need to use any third party libraries. Since AmigaOS has the internals we need. Unless we use it for AmiCygnix apps.


AFAIK modern Workbench supports Cairo libraries...

http://www.amigaos.net/content/1/features

Last edited by Raffaele on 15-Feb-2017 at 05:58 PM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 15-Feb-2017 at 05:53 PM.

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broadblues 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 15-Feb-2017 18:54:24
#93 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4446
From: Portsmouth England

@Raffaele

Quote:


AFAIK modern Workbench supports Cairo libraries...

http://www.amigaos.net/content/1/features


The workbench certainly does not use and *should not* use cairo (unless a super optimised hardware accelerated vriant is created for amigaos).

There is a cairo port available as standard but building GUIs with it is a bad idea as it's not fast enough.

Anyway cairo is just gfx front / back end, it does nothing other than render graphics objects so not helpful in the global C&P context you first mentioned it in.

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Hypex 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 16-Feb-2017 11:23:35
#94 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Daedalus

Quote:
Once you switch to a rastport/bitmapped display, that capability is gone, which is the fundamental issue we have with copying text.


Around the time the Amiga came out it was still popular for the average PC to be running in text modes. And in a CLI the scrolling was fast. I immediately saw this as a problem on the Amiga. It was nice to have it in a window with borders and everything but it was obvious it slowed the scrolling down. There were some cheats that opened a CLI in full screen to speed it up but without a proper text matrix it could only go so far.

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Raffaele 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 16-Feb-2017 12:09:46
#95 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1906
From: Naples, Italy

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:
@Daedalus

Quote:
Once you switch to a rastport/bitmapped display, that capability is gone, which is the fundamental issue we have with copying text.


Around the time the Amiga came out it was still popular for the average PC to be running in text modes. And in a CLI the scrolling was fast. I immediately saw this as a problem on the Amiga. It was nice to have it in a window with borders and everything but it was obvious it slowed the scrolling down. There were some cheats that opened a CLI in full screen to speed it up but without a proper text matrix it could only go so far.


All Amiga windows including text based CLI and Shell were rendered as graphics (I am pretty sure of this as I remember I read it on AWorld). So if windows containing text on Amiga are graphical rendered ones, it should be trivial creating a new class of windows that manage their titles as full path title text string thanks to MUI or Reaction.

Last edited by Raffaele on 16-Feb-2017 at 12:10 PM.

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Raffaele 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 16-Feb-2017 12:22:07
#96 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1906
From: Naples, Italy

@broadblues

Quote:

broadblues wrote:
@Raffaele

Quote:


AFAIK modern Workbench supports Cairo libraries...

http://www.amigaos.net/content/1/features


The workbench certainly does not use and *should not* use cairo (unless a super optimised hardware accelerated vriant is created for amigaos).



So why Cairo is present in the features? Hyperion dirty joke?

Quote:

There is a cairo port available as standard but building GUIs with it is a bad idea as it's not fast enough.

Anyway cairo is just gfx front / back end, it does nothing other than render graphics objects so not helpful in the global C&P context you first mentioned it in.



It is a pity because Cairo for the fact it describes internally all its elements and widgets vectorially (and mainly together with Quartz interface) it can make very interesting tricks, like for example embedding animations in the window background, cut&paste any element or widget on the screen and incorporate it in any program running as it was quite normal data, or perhaps rotate entire windows with given angles, or even embedding a live clock code into the window borders.

I remember I saw nasty tricks made with Cairo at its homepage.

Unfortunately many code and videos are now offline.

What a pity Cairo was not integrated well and completely with Workbench. It had powered our GUI to the nth power.

Last edited by Raffaele on 16-Feb-2017 at 12:25 PM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 16-Feb-2017 at 12:23 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 16-Feb-2017 12:47:09
#97 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@broadblues

Quote:
You are basically advocating the linux init.rc init.d/ type approach, even if maybe a less complex variant. I find that curious as you are doing it the name of user friendlyness but I'd say, init.d is anything but, need a whole setup tools to properly manage it.


I've had the idea a while before I found out what Linux was doing. In reality we need tools to manage the system now that we don't have. But in any case, it's about putting files in place that can do the work, without needing tools to manage it. Or needing it edit files manually.

Quote:
How is that simpler for anyone?


It keeps things organised. The developer doesn't need any tool to insert a script inside another script from an installer and can simply generate a file or make a link. It would also ease an install in place where the current location could be used to install from. The user need not be concerned with manually adding or removing this and that from inside a script and if need be can delete named files from a set location.

Quote:
There two kinds of users those that understand how to edit users-startup and those that don't, if the second kind are daunted by a single script, how much more so are they going to be by a directory full of the damn things? And then say there a bug inone that breaks your startup, how much more difficult is debuging that going to be?


It keeps things isolated to a relevant named file. If one breaks then it can be easily found. Except for customising the user shouldn't need to edit any scripts but AmigaOS lacks a package manager as well as an easy tool for developers to write an install script with.

Quote:
I just shudder at the complexity of that, getting the things in the right order etc, you need numbers file names or somthing, a step closer to init.rc and user scaring complexity!


In that case the present system can be used with priorities set in icons.

Quote:
There are a couple of assign managers out there, they would be a better route to go for those that can't cope with the simpler user startup approach.


Nothing yet is built into OS4. Which is what should manage it.

Quote:
I think you are deluded if you think the above is easier The installer tools effortlessly handles updating the user-startup without the prgramming careing about writing custom init.rc scripts etc...


And who uses those? Most of the stuff I download doesn't even have any installer. So if there are any tools they must be too complicated to use. Instead the complication is given to the user who has to jump through hoops just to get something to work. As if because they put the effort in to produce it or port it so the user should need to fiddle around to get it to work.

But are you using Linux too much or have I put Linux in your head? It's not Linux that gave me this idea but building on the concepts from OS2 where they started to break single specific files up into smaller components. This is just the next step.

Another complication we have now is shared objects. Again programs are being compiled with these but are not included nor is a list given. And the OS will simply crash the program. It isn't always easy to find them as I have downloaded some only to find it is installed in the SDK but not on the system so still doesn't work. And I am left with the guess work of copying them to the system and trying to link them by hand. This isn't a good working system to run a program and install system files by hand until it stops crashing.

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Hypex 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 16-Feb-2017 12:56:20
#98 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Xenic

Quote:
On the other hand, the WBStartup directory has been consolidated into WBStartup prefs. Instead of dragging a bunch of programs into WBStartup directory, you now add them with WBStartup prefs. I'm with broadblues on this suggestion. It would just complicate things.


I'm not advocating the new WBStartup way. In fact what I am advocating is exactly how WBStartup worked. You copy files to a location and they are executed or setup at boot. So the way I am proposing is with files. Nothing need be managed in a prefs file it but it would be good to manage all these things.

Regarding WBStartup I didn't like what they did either. I could see the point of linking to files instead of needing to copy them there. But I modified my system and brought it back. Except I called it Startup.

How do you feel about the APPDIR system? Do you dislike it having files for each application like it does? Because that works exactly as I would propose the way it organises things.

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KimmoK 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 16-Feb-2017 13:04:55
#99 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

Anyone working with touch friendly GUI/windowmanager/whatever yet?

(if so, I could see if I can arrange x86/x64 tablets for development...)

I can also forward a message if someone has serious interest in specifying & funding tablet development.
(end user price would be 1000€+)

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Xenic 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 16-Feb-2017 17:46:33
#100 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2004
Posts: 1246
From: Pennsylvania, USA

@Hypex
Quote:
I'm not advocating the new WBStartup way. In fact what I am advocating is exactly how WBStartup worked. You copy files to a location and they are executed or setup at boot. So the way I am proposing is with files. Nothing need be managed in a prefs file it but it would be good to manage all these things.

Regarding WBStartup I didn't like what they did either. I could see the point of linking to files instead of needing to copy them there. But I modified my system and brought it back. Except I called it Startup.


I didn't like WBStartup prefs initially. After the prefs started listing the programs in order of priority I started using it. I have a number of programs/scripts that need to be started in a specific order. Achieving that order using the WBStartup drawer meant using WorkBench menu "Icons/Information..." to check all the priorities and writing them down before setting the priority in a new WBStartup program. With WBStartup prefs I can make a priority guess for a new addition, see where it shows up in the list and then make an adjustment. Of course it would be even easier if the priority were displayed next to the module names in the "Startup modules" lister.

The main reason I brought up WBStartup was to point out that the current direction of OS4 changes seems to be in the opposite direction that you suggest with a Startup directory replacing user-startup. My big request when it comes to changes to the way OS4 works is that they be optional, with and easy way to select what method is used.

My user-startup is very complicated and the items in it need to be executed in a specific order. How are you going to control the order of execution of files in a User Startup directory??

For example, if the SDK startup were in the User Startup directory how would I add a file containing an assignment like "assign subversion: SDK:Data/subversion" and be sure it would be executed after the SDK: assignment was added? I'm guessing you would need icons with startup priorities like old WBStartup.

I recently rearranged my partitions and loaded user-startup in Turbotext to perform a "Find and Change" for some assignments. It would certainly have been more difficult if I would have needed to change multiple files in a User Startup directory.

Personally, I wouldn't care if they added a User Startup directory as long as I could disable it and continue using the user-startup script.

Quote:
How do you feel about the APPDIR system? Do you dislike it having files for each application like it does? Because that works exactly as I would propose the way it organises things.

I disabled APPDIR shortly after it was introduced but not because of seperate files. I did it for reasons like:
1. I keep my system partition write protected and have menus to unlock the partition when I intentionally want something saved.
2. I don't want a directory full of commands/programs that I test but don't keep.
3. Other reasons I don't feel compelled to list.

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