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      /  LibreOffice coming for AOS4
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paolone 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 8-Mar-2017 14:15:36
#81 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1007
From: Unknown

Quote:

jorit2 wrote:
@ExiE

Quote:

In case they would like to bring more people to their platform, good browser and office suite are a must.


Not to spoil the fun, or to be nasty ... but I seriously wonder whether that's true.

I for one don't fire up an office suite everyday on my machine, not even for professional use.

And ... I don't think the availability of LibreOffice for AmigaOS will be the argument that makes me change my mind about whether I want AmigaOS.


Well, I guess we should stop measuring common needs with ourselves' ones. The fact YOU never run a office suite does not imply, at any degree, that this is true also for everyone else. It may be true for many people, but a office suite - or a browser, like ExiE said - definitely IS a common need. And ANY computer platform has one. Even Amiga, in its golden age, had one or more. We were just not accustomed to the idea of a 'suite' of applications, which is something Microsoft invented long ago with Works and Office. I sincerely hope A-Eon will be smart enough to make OpenOffice easy to port also to MOS and AROS, since I do not believe the single AmigaOS4.1 market would be large enough to recoup the money spent (either they have spent very little, or they are planning to sell this in loss, considering the LO port effort part of the marketing plan). LibreOffice's license allows that (and even AROS one does), so if someone would like or is forced to build a commercial product upon it, why complaining?

The real problem, though, is that Amiga is now the platform that spends money to close what other people spent to open. Mozilla made firefox open? Amigans added closed source parts. Sun made StarOffice open, and The LibreOffice Foundation forked OOO to keep the suite free? Amigans are closing it again with closed + commercial additions. Not to be harsh, but if you think you owe something to people at A-EON and Hyperion, who are making you pay for software and technologies NOBODY ELSE pays for, what do you think AROS developers and community deserve? After all, they have brought Gallium 3D, 64bit, a whole OS for free, and alwasy for free they are now evolving the Amiga API to SMP. The Amiga community contributed, with their own money, to open Magellan, to open the Poseidon USB stack, and many closed things like AudioEvolution, or the SoundBlaster 128 driver are now free because someone of us paid.

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MichaelMerkel 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 8-Mar-2017 18:41:00
#82 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 810
From: Ilvesheim, Germany

@Dandy

Quote:

Dandy wrote:
@cgutjahr

Quote:

cgutjahr wrote:
@wawa

...
But Control-C for 'copy to clipboard' is a no-go.



Why is this a 'no-go'?

This is one of the rare examples where I prefer the way Windows does c&p via shortcuts over the Amiga way.

Mainly because I'm right-handed and use the right hand to control the mouse and have the left hand free to press CTRL + X/C/V.


while i also like the ctrl+cvx stuff and am used to it (btw. also the shift+cursor = select text stuff i *really* miss on the amiga), i guess he means that ctrl+c is the "break" command which can stop programsin the shell... nevertheless it can be made possible.

regards...
michael

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cgutjahr 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 8-Mar-2017 21:49:03
#83 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 870
From: Unknown

@Dandy

Quote:

Why is this a 'no-go'?

I was talking about this specific case where one application (a potentially unfinished port of a Linux application) is using control-c, while the rest of the system is using RAmiga-C. That's a no-go, obviously.

Using Control-X/C/V globally is different matter. I wouldn't mind that, simply because I'm used to that combination on other systems. It would introduce AmigaOS to the clash between "copy to clipboard" and "send break signal to CLI application" keyboard shortcuts we know from other systems though.

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jorit2 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 8-Mar-2017 23:28:58
#84 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Apr-2011
Posts: 234
From: Unknown

@paolone

Quote:

Well, I guess we should stop measuring common needs with ourselves' ones. The fact YOU never run a office suite does not imply, at any degree, that this is true also for everyone else.


Thx for this reply

First, let's get this out of the way: I did not say porting an Office-suite to AmigaOS is a silly effort. Sincere apologies to anyone involved if it came across as such.
I do most certainly understand the argument, that a browser and an office suite are a must to lure people (back) to the platform.

Let's say I made the comment from the position "mmm, if I were an stakeholder", looking at what you would do would with the product you're about to bring to market, is, I guess, not a bad approach to decide whether it is worth it.

A bit akin to "eat your own dog food".

Or ... I still have to find the first cook that says "Darn this steak-sauce is really really bad but let's make it anyway, I'm sure people will love it !!"

Evert

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broadblues 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 9-Mar-2017 13:20:31
#85 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4324
From: Portsmouth England

@MichaelMerkel

Quote:

(btw. also the shift+cursor = select text stuff i *really* miss on the amiga),


Picked random appliaction, Wordworth, works there

It's not standardized on AmigaOS though, but shift arrow key is somewhat standardized as go to end of line.

RAmiga-B is acommon option for starting a block select.

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broadblues 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 9-Mar-2017 13:37:53
#86 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4324
From: Portsmouth England

@Dandy

Quote:

Why is this a 'no-go'?

This is one of the rare examples where I prefer the way Windows does c&p via shortcuts over the Amiga way.

Mainly because I'm right-handed and use the right hand to control the mouse and have the left hand free to press CTRL + X/C/V.

On the Amiga I have to use the right Amiga-key instead of the CTRL key at the left side of the keyboard and by that cannot use the right hand to mark the text.

This way the Amiga requires me to use both hands for pressing the shortcut-keys and coerces me into making an additional hand movement to mark the text with the mouse in the right hand first.
And - believe it or not - this way it takes more time than with the Win-way.

The only way to change this currently is to remap the keys for this purpose, e.g. to remap the right Amiga-key to the CTRL-key.

I would prefer if this could be changed in AmigaOS - without me having to remap any keys...


If you are marking text with the mouse, *use the menu to copy the text!
The reason RAMgs-C/V/X et al are chosen that way is because they are menu shortcuts (and in few gadgets coded that way for consistency)

But if you must use the lkeyboard.

Thumb on RAmiga, little finger on C is a pretty easy reach fotr most hands....

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broadblues 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 9-Mar-2017 13:43:56
#87 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4324
From: Portsmouth England

@cgutjahr

Quote:

I was talking about this specific case where one application (a potentially unfinished port of a Linux application) is using control-c, while the rest of the system is using RAmiga-C. That's a no-go, obviously.


It's sub optimal I agree but non trivial to fix up in alien GUI toolkits, particularly if they don't use menus in an Amiga like way. That's why it's unfortunatly still CTRL-C et al in blender. Getting the overall functionality working is a long way further up my list of priorities, in Clipboard case it should cut to the global clipboard and not to an internal clip (even if an internal clip might exist too with application specific objects)



Quote:

It would introduce AmigaOS to the clash between "copy to clipboard" and "send break signal to CLI application" keyboard shortcuts we know from other systems though.


Indeed suddenly you have to remeber to press shift in certain applications to avoid that.

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MichaelMerkel 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 9-Mar-2017 19:44:45
#88 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 810
From: Ilvesheim, Germany

@broadblues

Quote:

broadblues wrote:
@MichaelMerkel

Quote:

(btw. also the shift+cursor = select text stuff i *really* miss on the amiga),


Picked random appliaction, Wordworth, works there


Quote:

It's not standardized on AmigaOS though, but shift arrow key is somewhat standardized as go to end of line.

well, but this was "invented" at times when the amiga keyboards did not have pos1/end or page-up/down keys... now they have. time for a change.
Quote:

RAmiga-B is acommon option for starting a block select.

well... block select. i really hate this when using codebench. afaik this is the only option there to mark and copy.

using notepad it is ctrl-cursor-up/down for marking text. arghl. many programs and even more shortcuts.

regards...
michael

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broadblues 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 10-Mar-2017 22:57:16
#89 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4324
From: Portsmouth England

@MichaelMerkel

Quote:

Quote:

RAmiga-B is acommon option for starting a block select.

well... block select. i really hate this when using codebench. afaik this is the only option there to mark and copy.

using notepad it is ctrl-cursor-up/down for marking text. arghl. many programs and even more shortcuts.


Err... notepad supports RAmiga-B to intiate block select, and codebench supports CTRL cursor key, so there is 100% consitancy there between those two prgrams.

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wawa 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 10-Mar-2017 23:17:37
#90 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6140
From: Unknown

@MichaelMerkel

Quote:

well, but this was "invented" at times when the amiga keyboards did not have pos1/end or page-up/down keys... now they have. time for a change.


sorry but without going deeper into the origin, subject and functionality of right-amiga-whatever versus ctrl/strg-whatever, on what you call "standarized amiga keyboards" (by now) is simply (rebranded) pc keyboards standard used with os4/mos/aros as a replacement for non existent amiga equivalent.

by no means i am defending clumsy two-hands r-amiga-c solution (which isnt possible to locate on such a pc-keyboard without self adhesive sticker or much imagination), as standard contrary to the native strg/ctrl-c, but for fact, it is an amiga standard, you seek to replace, which leads to confusion, if you dont admit it and rather to circumnavigate the facts.

Last edited by wawa on 10-Mar-2017 at 11:25 PM.

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djrikki 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 11-Mar-2017 7:56:52
#91 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2010
Posts: 2077
From: Grimsby, UK

I fully agree with whoever started the Cut Copy Paste topic.

In my opinion it should be top priority to flip RAmiga with LAmiga system wide and encourage apps to use CTRL x/c/v and have a standardised way to mark text across all the board on keyboard and or with mouse.

This is one area where for millions of users the world over - is not negotiable.

Last edited by djrikki on 11-Mar-2017 at 07:57 AM.

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Raffaele 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 11-Mar-2017 8:58:10
#92 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1852
From: Naples, Italy

@djrikki

Quote:

djrikki wrote:
I fully agree with whoever started the Cut Copy Paste topic.

In my opinion it should be top priority to flip RAmiga with LAmiga system wide and encourage apps to use CTRL x/c/v and have a standardised way to mark text across all the board on keyboard and or with mouse.

This is one area where for millions of users the world over - is not negotiable.


Yes! This is another feature that requires (again) elder legacy software being sandboxed living with its own standards, and shortcut sequence ctrlx/c/v being aligned with the rest of the world.

New software can continue relying on sequence RAmiga/LAmiga + keys as they are harmless shortcuts and Amiga only standard ones, but escaping/exiting abruptly from software should be standrdized with CTRL+ESCape that is more logic.

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Daedalus 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 11-Mar-2017 12:47:08
#93 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1665
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@djrikki

Oh no :( Why start to introduce shortcuts from other platforms? Popularity doesn't necessarily make it good, otherwise MacDonalds would be the best restaurant in the world. It sounds like you're just uncomfortable with things being a little different. Ctrl is an awkward shortcut key because it's also used for control characters. The Amiga and Mac both have it right - dedicated keys for shortcuts and consistency across software. Windows and Linux, while better than they were in the past, are generally a shortcuts nightmare. Ctrl-X, C and V work fine in most places, but when you go to the command prompt it changes to Shift+Insert, Ctrl+Insert - the pre-Windows shortcuts, because Ctrl is used for control characters, or even to Alt-Space-E-K, depending on the version. Should applications also start implementing Alt-F4 for quitting? Or F1 for help? Ugh... Feels like taking a step backwards, and also requires manual handling of shortcuts by the application, which means more programming. I for one certainly won't be implementing such code in my applications.

For what it's worth, I'm constantly using RAmiga-X/C/V with one hand and never gave it a second thought. Is it that much of a problem for other people?

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Daedalus 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 11-Mar-2017 12:52:21
#94 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1665
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@Raffaele

Quote:

Raffaele wrote:

but escaping/exiting abruptly from software should be standrdized with CTRL+ESCape that is more logic.


What? What's wrong with RAmiga-Q? Or the very similar Command-Q from MacOS? What does Ctrl-Esc do really? It calls up the Start menu on Windows for users who don't have a Windows key on their keyboards...

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Tomppeli 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 11-Mar-2017 13:22:44
#95 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Jun-2004
Posts: 1631
From: Home land of Santa, sauna, sisu and salmiakki

@Daedalus

I agree with every word you said (in posts #93 and 94).

@all
Remember Amiga has Amiga keys closest to the space bar and it's not hard to use a thumb together with a little finger to pick ramiga+xcv after you excercise it a little bit.

IBM copied too much old dummy terminals to their PC. I would be more happy with A1000 style keyboards than PC ones. Simple.

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MichaelMerkel 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 11-Mar-2017 14:34:13
#96 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 810
From: Ilvesheim, Germany

@broadblues

Quote:

Err... notepad supports RAmiga-B to intiate block select, and codebench supports CTRL cursor key, so there is 100% consitancy there between those two prgrams.


almost. codebench did not select text with CTRL here. but i just found out that you can redefine almost all cursor shortcuts in codebenchs settings
did so now. shift+cursor working very well now! yeah!
only the undo/redo keys don't work here.

regards...
michael

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Severin 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 11-Mar-2017 19:09:01
#97 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Aug-2003
Posts: 2720
From: Gloucestershire UK

@Dandy

Quote:
This is one of the rare examples where I prefer the way Windows does c&p via shortcuts over the Amiga way.

Mainly because I'm right-handed and use the right hand to control the mouse and have the left hand free to press CTRL + X/C/V.

On the Amiga I have to use the right Amiga-key instead of the CTRL key at the left side of the keyboard and by that cannot use the right hand to mark the text.


Simple solution is Amigakey remapper

For me ctrl-c is a no-go because it is the break command, not only for shell programs it can also be used for some workbench programs. I don't want to try to copy something from a program and instead close it just because windows uses that key combination differently.

This whole discussion is pointless, most of you have other computers where you can get LO for free, use it on them and leave us amiga only users in peace :)

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ExiE 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 11-Mar-2017 19:34:46
#98 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 18-May-2004
Posts: 449
From: Czech Amiga News

@Severin

Quote:
This whole discussion is pointless, most of you have other computers where you can get LO for free, use it on them and leave us amiga only users in peace :)


Do you mean all three of you? Sorry, just a stupid joke but I can't help myself :(

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Amigo1 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 15-Mar-2017 6:42:18
#99 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1481
From: Cork Ireland

@MichaelMerkel

Quote:

MichaelMerkel wrote:
@Dandy

while i also like the ctrl+cvx stuff and am used to it (btw. also the shift+cursor = select text stuff i *really* miss on the amiga),


Unless I'm misunderstanding something, it is CTRL+ cursor key in most Reaction(?) apps (Notepad, and SHIFT+cursor in MUI apps (but it can be changed to ALT or CTRL too in MUI prefs) :)


edit: I read the post where wrote you found the solution yourself only after posting mine.

Last edited by Amigo1 on 15-Mar-2017 at 07:06 AM.

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Amigo1 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 15-Mar-2017 7:04:07
#100 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1481
From: Cork Ireland

@Daedalus

I agree!

But I would also like it a lot if it was possible (same like for the mouse buttons) to swap between RAmiga and LAmiga in Input preferences. System wide. What a killer feature for accessibility settings!

I know old software will probably not cooperate, but eh with the X1000 and X5000 E-UAE works fine..

if we are keeping to stay compatible with old software, then it is not acceptable that so many old software titles do not work. All the games and WHDLoad should work too (without the need of the excellent RunInUAE)

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