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wawa
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Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after? Posted on 20-Apr-2017 13:43:30
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Elite Member |
Joined: 21-Jan-2008 Posts: 6259
From: Unknown | | |
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| @billt
Quote:
I want modern, highg end capability, 68k doesnt offer that. |
68k offers legacy, x86/64 offers up to date performance, ppc doesnt offer any of both.. |
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billt
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Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after? Posted on 20-Apr-2017 14:10:16
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Elite Member |
Joined: 24-Oct-2003 Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA | | |
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| @wawa
Quote:
68k offers legacy, x86/64 offers up to date performance, ppc doesnt offer any of both. |
OS4 runs on neither 68k nor x64... For the time being, neither 68k nor x84 offer anything modern or advanced for AmigaOS. 68k isn't modern of course, and x86 is simply irrelevant for now.
I do run 68k stuff on ppc...
I also run ppc stuff on ppc...Last edited by billt on 20-Apr-2017 at 02:27 PM.
_________________ All glory to the Hypnotoad! |
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wawa
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Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after? Posted on 20-Apr-2017 15:04:06
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Elite Member |
Joined: 21-Jan-2008 Posts: 6259
From: Unknown | | |
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| @billt
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OS4 runs on neither 68k nor x64 |
an os is only as relevant as software it runs. if there is no unique software to speak of there is no reason to buy any expensive dedicated hardware. except you have fetish to run that just for the sake of it, but then it is rather irrenlevant how advanced or performant it is, as this serves no practical purpose anyway. genuine amiga wins here hands down. it runs amiga os and its unique applications all fine. |
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billt
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Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after? Posted on 20-Apr-2017 18:47:12
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Elite Member |
Joined: 24-Oct-2003 Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA | | |
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| @wawa
If you don't want to run OS4 or OS4 software, or do development thereof, then it's irrelevant.
I personally do not agree that OS4 or its platforms are irrelevant for me. To each his own. _________________ All glory to the Hypnotoad! |
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Amigo1
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Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after? Posted on 20-Apr-2017 18:56:21
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Super Member |
Joined: 24-Jun-2004 Posts: 1582
From: the Clouds | | |
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| @billt
Quote:
billt wrote: @wawa
If you don't want to run OS4 or OS4 software, or do development thereof, then it's irrelevant.
I personally do not agree that OS4 or its platforms are irrelevant for me. To each his own. |
with a slightly different wording I was going to write the same.
I like AmigaOS 4.x much more than OS3.x . To each his own. |
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tlosm
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Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after? Posted on 21-Apr-2017 0:24:01
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Elite Member |
Joined: 28-Jul-2012 Posts: 2746
From: Amiga land | | |
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| @billt
15w for core probably _________________ I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32; PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB; MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz; #nomorea-eoninmyhome |
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billt
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Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after? Posted on 21-Apr-2017 15:07:56
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Joined: 24-Oct-2003 Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA | | |
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tlosm
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Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after? Posted on 21-Apr-2017 16:44:07
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Elite Member |
Joined: 28-Jul-2012 Posts: 2746
From: Amiga land | | |
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| @billt
can be, but what make me thinking is can a e6500 make less hot than a e5500? because the e5500 need a big fan on it for stay fresh when all cores are working. _________________ I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32; PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB; MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz; #nomorea-eoninmyhome |
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Hammer
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Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after? Posted on 21-Apr-2017 18:55:29
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Elite Member |
Joined: 9-Mar-2003 Posts: 5246
From: Australia | | |
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| @billt
Quote:
billt wrote: @wawa
Quote:
68k offers legacy, x86/64 offers up to date performance, ppc doesnt offer any of both. |
OS4 runs on neither 68k nor x64... For the time being, neither 68k nor x84 offer anything modern or advanced for AmigaOS. 68k isn't modern of course, and x86 is simply irrelevant for now.
I do run 68k stuff on ppc...
I also run ppc stuff on ppc...
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I do run 68K and PPC with Amiga Forever/WinUAE + AOS4 PowerPC on Intel Core i7-4790K at 4.5 Ghz._________________ Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68) Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68) |
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billt
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Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after? Posted on 21-Apr-2017 19:08:45
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Elite Member |
Joined: 24-Oct-2003 Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA | | |
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| @tlosm
http://www.nxp.com/assets/documents/data/en/brochures/P2P3P5APPBRF.pdf Quote:
Manufactured in 45 nm process technology, the P5040, P5021, P5020 and P5010 devices... |
Quote:
With frequencies scaling to 2.4 GHz, the P5040 delivers an impressive 28,800 DMIPs in 25 watts typical power. |
The very worst case TDP I've found for t4240 watts (cores + logic) is 55W. That would fit into a performance laptop, like some gaming laptops have hotter CPUs than that. http://www.nxp.com/files-static/training_pdf/FTF/2012/americas/WBNR_FTF12_NET_F0027.pdf
http://events.fortiss.org/fileadmin/uploads/events/James_Freescale_QorIQ_Aerospace_Defense_20151013.pdf T4240 Details Typical Power 28-36W (That ain't bad...)
http://www.nxp.com/assets/documents/data/en/product-briefs/T2080PB.pdf Quote:
A top-speed bin T4240 dissipates approximately 2x the power dissipation of the P4080; however, the T4240 increases computing performance by ~4x, yielding a 2x improvement in DMIPs per watt. |
And if one used a t4240 in a laptop, there's a lot of peripherals/logic that likely won't get used. And can cut back on cores used per CPU demand at the time, or drop to t4160 or t4080.
https://www.nxp.com/webapp/Download?colCode=T2080&Parent_nodeId=1339184091400722256375&Parent_pageType=product&Parent_nodeId=1339184091400722256375&Parent_pageType=product Each e6500 core at 1.8GHz is about 1 watt
https://www.nxp.com/webapp/Download?colCode=P5040&Parent_nodeId=1335211155430699170860&Parent_pageType=product&Parent_nodeId=1335211155430699170860&Parent_pageType=product Each e5500 core at 1.8GHz 13W / "core group", but I have not found what that "core group" term actually means.
It's frustrating that one cannot easily find a direct comparison of cip vs chip or core vs core wattage..._________________ All glory to the Hypnotoad! |
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edponpon
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Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after? Posted on 21-Apr-2017 19:14:38
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Regular Member |
Joined: 8-May-2007 Posts: 314
From: USA, The World Police | | |
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| I'm kinda surprised OS 4.X hasn't been seriously considered for Raspberry PI 3 and on. This little system has plenty of power for the OS and wouldn't be a risk for anyone to invest in, seeing how cheap it is. Now I know, someone out there is already going to point out "Emulating" Amiga on the Raspberry PI 3. I've considered that too, but I'm talking about having the OS on the MicroSD and having all new software specifically developed for this platform. Many people don't want to break the bank to buy an expensive hobbyist computer. I think we'd (Amiga community) have way more members and support if the OS and hardware were matched together just right. Just my 2 cents though. What do you guys think?
Ed
_________________ Amiga 1200 - ACA 1233 68030 128MB Ram 8GB CF With tons of Classics
AmigaOne X5000
Raspberry PI 400 - PiMiga 1.5 "That which doesn't kill you, only makes you stronger" - Someone important, but I forgot who |
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Rob
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Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after? Posted on 21-Apr-2017 19:42:32
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Elite Member |
Joined: 20-Mar-2003 Posts: 6344
From: S.Wales | | |
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| @edponpon
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I'm kinda surprised OS 4.X hasn't been seriously considered for Raspberry PI 3 and on. |
Lack of resources. |
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tlosm
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Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after? Posted on 21-Apr-2017 21:57:00
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Elite Member |
Joined: 28-Jul-2012 Posts: 2746
From: Amiga land | | |
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| @billt
probably they means core and cache ... and is in line for what is know on e5500 15w for core . 30w for 20 2ghz and more than double for the 40. good if the e6500 is less hot. Last edited by tlosm on 21-Apr-2017 at 09:57 PM.
_________________ I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32; PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB; MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz; #nomorea-eoninmyhome |
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iggy
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Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after? Posted on 22-Apr-2017 14:38:12
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Super Member |
Joined: 20-Oct-2010 Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA | | |
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| @Hammer
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I do run 68K and PPC with Amiga Forever/WinUAE + AOS4 PowerPC on Intel Core i7-4790K at 4.5 Ghz. |
How's that working out for you, using a eight thread 4.5 GHz cpu to run an emulation of an old, slow Amiga PPC card? Somehow I can't see that outperforming an X5000, which would also have better video card support.
68K apps would fly though. |
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AmigaBlitter
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Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after? Posted on 24-Apr-2017 18:07:03
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Elite Member |
Joined: 26-Sep-2005 Posts: 3512
From: Unknown | | |
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| @billt
Very interesting material.
Have you find any eventual PPC roadmap from nxp (now qualcomm)? _________________ retired |
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billt
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Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after? Posted on 24-Apr-2017 18:44:13
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Elite Member |
Joined: 24-Oct-2003 Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA | | |
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| @AmigaBlitter
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Have you find any eventual PPC roadmap from nxp (now qualcomm)? |
I'm not aware of anything new being said. Last I spoke with Freescale/NXP was just as NXP purchased Freescale. I doubt Qualcomm bought NXP for hte PPC stuff...
http://www.nxp.com/assets/documents/data/en/supporting-information/QorIQ-Layerscape-Webinar.pdf This roadmap is now basically past-tense, as it looked to 2016 as the future.
https://freescale.jiveon.com/docs/DOC-330317 Looks more recent and has NXP logos on it. Talks mostly of ARM, includes PPC on a few pages, and the roadmap does have a vague hint of some "next generation" green blob at top-right for PPC (with current products listed at left side), but doesn't actually say anything. I certainly wouldn't mind if AmigaOS moved on to ARM64, or even to x64.
Your guess is as good as mine.
_________________ All glory to the Hypnotoad! |
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iggy
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Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after? Posted on 24-Apr-2017 20:08:39
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Super Member |
Joined: 20-Oct-2010 Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA | | |
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| @AmigaBlitter
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Have you find any eventual PPC roadmap from nxp... |
I don't think there are plans to go further. Even before NXP bought Freescale, Freescale reps were encouraging customers to migrate to ARM (just ask Bill Buck) and the Qorlq line (which most e5500 and e6500 cored processors belong to) was migrating to ARM based devices.
PowerPC has been relegated to embedded, controller, and communications applications for some time now, even if the current PPCs we've focused on can be used for desktop and laptop applications (although they DO have too many NICs).
IBM now embeds PPCs in Power8 cpus as thermal and power monitors and controllers.
While the T2080 based laptop project is still moving forward (although the first funding drive for schematics has been pushed back to mid-May), I think we need to consider our options.
Current PPC cpus and cores will still be with us for several years (as Freescale has commitments to existing users), but we need to plan ahead.
Power8 and 9 ARE an option, IF a low enough cost board can be designed. The Talos design from Raptor engineering is available for license and could be scaled down to lower price and make it better suited to eight core cpus. Raptor's last price quotes were idiotically high for the proposed run of that board. If it can't be done for $2K or less, there isn't much point in it for our market.
BUT, the advantage would be that as they are bi-endian, these processors WILL run our NG software. AND, it WOULD attract buyers from outside of our community (the Linux community has been looking for a truly open platform for some time).
Then there is ARM and X64. At one time I was an advocate of moving to ARM, but it still doesn't offer the power or flexibility of an X64 system. AND the decision has been made to move MorphOS to X64.
Outside of AROS, no one is focusing on Amiga/ARM applications, so this could give OS4/OS4.2/OS5 a relatively exclusive niche.
However, X64 does seem to make the most sense, in the long run.
For me (and YES, I know I repeat this all the time), I'm quite happy with our current developments.
A QorlQ based AmigaOne is finally available (for those of you that don't know, this was the cpu line originally favored by Varisys when they were first contracted) The P5020 based X5000 is quite nice (would be better if we had gpu assisted video decoding), and I look forward to buying a P5040 based variant.
AND, we will do what we can to get the T2080 based laptop built (if we can get the funding for Acube's assistance, that will help legitimize that project).
SO, while I'm sure I'll get some flamingly negative responses to this post, we're actually in a pretty good place. New 68K hardware is being produced, new PPC hardware is being produced, THREE NG OS' continue to be developed, new software is being introduced and old software is being updated, AND the Amiga trademark appears to have be freed from its long time bondage to AInc.
Not bad for a "dead" platform. As the FIRST multimedia PC, it deserves our continued attention. Last edited by iggy on 24-Apr-2017 at 08:11 PM.
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AmigaBlitter
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Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after? Posted on 25-Apr-2017 6:58:09
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Elite Member |
Joined: 26-Sep-2005 Posts: 3512
From: Unknown | | |
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| @iggy
Great analysis.
+1 _________________ retired |
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iggy
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Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after? Posted on 25-Apr-2017 10:14:36
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Super Member |
Joined: 20-Oct-2010 Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA | | |
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| @AmigaBlitter
Thanks, way too long winded though. But I was getting the impression that those rabid for the push to X64 didn't think that the rest of us were paying attention. Our evolution has been slow (its a damned small market), BUT it is occurring. |
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cgutjahr
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Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after? Posted on 25-Apr-2017 13:39:08
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Cult Member |
Joined: 8-Mar-2003 Posts: 969
From: Unknown | | |
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| @iggy Quote:
IF a low enough cost board can be designed.
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The second somebody needs to "design a board", you'll end up with massive delays, high prices, distribution and production problems - i.e. the situation we already have. There's no need to have custom hardware, so let's not have custom hardware please.
Designing your own boards is stupid, period. Pick one that will hopefully be available in big numbers for as many years as possible and support that.
The actual CPU you're using is the smaller problem. It shouldn't be PPC, for obvious reasons - but what you pick is only important for a small percentage of your OS developers and nobody else.
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Then there is ARM and X64.
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The problem with ARM is the lack of desktop-worthy motherboards that are actually available for more than a year. All those SBC/pi clone manufacturers release a new revision every other year.
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Outside of AROS, no one is focusing on Amiga/ARM applications
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Inside of AROS, only Papara is "focusing" on ARM, no? And that's only true if you define "focussing" as "is running AROS hosted on ARM Linux".
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