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PosterThread
amigang 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 18-Apr-2021 8:49:25
#1201 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1578
From: Cheshire, England

@matthey

Quote:
Hyperion has used up its good will and abused its reputation to the point of no return. What are you hoping to hold out for?


Well if Hyperion wins then if cloanto/Amiga really want everything back together they would have to buy Hyperion out, so they could get a payday out of it.

Plus let’s not forget they are selling os3.1.4 at 30euros id would of expect they sold at the very least 400+copies? -tax’s and other thing they likely made 8,000euros at very least, most likely more I would guess.

Also if they know they own outright ownership of Amigaos then they could sign deals with companies to license out roms to maybe a mini Amiga consoles, (could be license to 10,000s if the success of the c64mini anything to go by.) they could make there own Amiga forever package, again just look at google play store at Amiga forever rom pack says 10K+ downloads, there a big market out there the Hyperion could go after with very little investment.

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SHADES 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 18-Apr-2021 11:56:12
#1202 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 671
From: Melbourne

@ppcamiga1

My point was that ARM is not designed to be little endian.
So, I wanted to know why he stated it was.
Also, I wanted to know that if this was the biggest problem, and ARM does not have this requirement, why it was not considered.

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SHADES 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 18-Apr-2021 12:03:17
#1203 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 671
From: Melbourne

@Hyperion-Director

Ok, thanks for that but ARM is noted to be bi-endian and is not x86 compatible.
Was this not taken into account?
ARM is such an easy to land arcitecture with very little in prohibitive investments.
Surely the PPC world or x86 is a lot harder to cater for, you just mentioned the boot code for graphics cards etc. A lot of ARM SoC CPU's have a gpu core inbuilt already.
The best thing about them is the platform doesn't change much so there is no need to support a multitude of devices or chipset platforms etc. Pi is a perfect example of this.

Last edited by SHADES on 18-Apr-2021 at 12:08 PM.

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DiscreetFX 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 18-Apr-2021 17:25:57
#1204 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Feb-2003
Posts: 2021
From: Chicago, IL

@SHADES

Apple got x86 working on ARM chips no problem.

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AP 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 18-Apr-2021 20:02:25
#1205 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Jul-2003
Posts: 563
From: Vienna/Austria

@DiscreetFX

Quote:

DiscreetFX wrote:
@SHADES

Apple got x86 working on ARM chips no problem.


But Apple is Apple. A switch from one cpu to another is no easy task regarding manpower and money. As Ben said: It's of course possible but not without a certain amount of time and money.

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A1222Plus later this year (pre-ordered)

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matthey 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 18-Apr-2021 22:58:28
#1206 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 888
From: Kansas

Quote:

SHADES wrote:
My point was that ARM is not designed to be little endian.
So, I wanted to know why he stated it was.
Also, I wanted to know that if this was the biggest problem, and ARM does not have this requirement, why it was not considered.


ARM was originally designed to support little endian only. It is still what I consider to be natively little endian. Bi-endian ARM cores usually default to little endian mode and executing code may always be little endian. I'm not sure when bi-endian support was added but at least ARMv6 and ARMv7 have good optional support for big endian mode. At one time, the "future" big desktop architectures like PPC, MIPS, SPARC, PA-RISC and ALPHA had better big endian support and embedded had better big endian support with 68k, ColdFire, SuperH and PPC (networking often used big endian buses). Then x86/x86-64 reasserted domination of the desktop and ARM took over the embedded market. Many of the big endian architectures became bi-endian. Bi-endian usually does *not* mean equal hardware support for both and the bias is usually in favor of the native endianess. Development tool support is also usually not equal with native support being better. IBM has devoted huge resources to making little endian support on POWER as good as big endian but there are likely still some things big endian like executing code (mixed endian is ugly). Big endian ARM likely has been considered as an AmigaOS porting target and likely would be an easier target than x86-64 but there are disadvantages also.

SHADES Quote:

Surely the PPC world or x86 is a lot harder to cater for, you just mentioned the boot code for graphics cards etc. A lot of ARM SoC CPU's have a gpu core inbuilt already.


GPUs built into SoCs have hardware registers which may be little endian also. Some buses like PCI use little endian by default. Most GPUs have better little endian support today.

SHADES Quote:

The best thing about them is the platform doesn't change much so there is no need to support a multitude of devices or chipset platforms etc. Pi is a perfect example of this.


ARM up to ARMv7 lacked standardization so ARM hardware was practically all configured different. Even the CPU cores support different modes and extensions. This made it difficult to support a wide range of devices. Android has relatively poor performance, is buggy on some hardware and doesn't support some hardware because of this. ARMv8 became much more standardized which improves performance and portability of code but it looks like one of the standardizations is a move to little endian as the default endianess with endian conversion instructions as the favored way of dealing with big endian data. This is *not* efficient when most of the data is big endian though.

The Raspberry Pi has produced enough hardware to create a pseudo ARM standard but that only applies to RPis. There are still significant differences between versions of the RPi. The first SoC only had an old ARMv6 core while newer cores have higher performance cores and features yet many OS distributions use older and less efficient code which still runs on the early RPis (32 bit ARMv6 instead of 64 bit ARMv8). So far, I believe all RPis support big endian mode but that could change as ARMv8 AArch64 only cores become more popular (AArch32 is a compatibility bridge with older ARM). Certainly, big endian mode is not being used much on RPis. Someone asked about big endian mode on a RPi in the following thread.

https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=183735

Many responses were not very helpful to nearly being hostile toward big endian.

Quote:

I really don't understand why anyone would ever use bigendian. It is clearly a violation of the Natural Order Of Things and quite possibly the ill-advised use of it has caused fractures in reality that have left us with the current level of insanity in the political world. Nasty gibbering things from the dungeon dimensions.


Quote:

Irrelevant; ARM provides instructions for all sorts of ways to handle big-endian-evil.

For example
REV Rd, Rm ARMARM DDI0406Q p. A8-270
REVSH Rd, Rm ibid. pp A8-274-5
REV16 Rd, Rm ibid. pp. A8-272-3

Unless you have some near-magical way to get data in and out so fast that spending an instruction endian-swapping before and after any other manipulation is significant, I don't see much likelihood that you need anything else.


Sadly, the last quote is likely the recommended way to handle big endian data on newer ARMv8 cores and the most future safe. In my opinion, big endian support on ARM is likely to get worse.


DiscreetFX Quote:

Apple got x86 working on ARM chips no problem.


Hyperion couldn't afford to pay 398.960 EUR while Apple is richer than some countries.

Apple's fortune turned around when they entered the embedded market with the iPod and then iPhone. Their desktop market is small in comparison. Using ARM chips for desktop will reduce costs especially now that they are developing their own ARM SoCs.

Last edited by matthey on 19-Apr-2021 at 04:44 AM.

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SHADES 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 18-Apr-2021 23:31:10
#1207 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 671
From: Melbourne

@matthey

Ok, so Bi-endian support started after ARM6

Current generation ARM processors (from ARM6 onwards) have the option of operating in either little-endian or big-endian mode. I would be very suprised if anyone wanted to use older, pre ARM-6 arcitecture for porting and since the endian issue hasn't really been a thing since prior to ARM6, I don't know why this was even brought up. It's not a static little endian device like was suggested.

"GPUs built into SoCs have hardware registers which may be little endian also. Some buses like PCI use little endian by default. Most GPUs have better little endian support today."

Even IF this is the case, on board GPU standardisation means not breaking things between platform formats. Something AROS still struggles with using "known compatible hardware" even in x86 land for revisions of it's attempts at an OS port. The reason I mention it is because of the now standardisation of hardware, this becomes much easier to develop for. You just don't have to support a bunch of chipsets or configurations anymore.

I don't know about the lack of support. I found heaps of resources just with a flick of the Google search engine.
http://netwinder.oregonstate.edu/pub/netwinder/docs/arm/Apps04vC.html

As for being openly hostile towards programmers due to using big-endian functionality, that sounds very subjective indeed. I doubt any manufacturer would pour in the requirement to include function and tape out functionality if people are going to be openly hostile towards it and therefore, never use it. That makes zero sense.

Anyhow, these were my main reasons for posting. The litte endian argument is only true post ARM-6 which, has been addressed some time ago.
The rest is open to personal experiences and bias.

Last edited by SHADES on 18-Apr-2021 at 11:37 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 18-Apr-2021 at 11:35 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 18-Apr-2021 at 11:34 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 18-Apr-2021 at 11:33 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 18-Apr-2021 at 11:32 PM.

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Hyperion-Director 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 19-Apr-2021 5:06:04
#1208 ]
New Member
Joined: 27-Mar-2021
Posts: 7
From: Unknown

@matthey

Quote:

"1. Hyperion wins the court battle
a) Hyperion can't afford to port AmigaOS to new hardware
b) without new affordable hardware AmigaOS revenues will dry up
c) game over
2. Hyperion loses the court battle
a) Hyperion loses all sources of AmigaOS related revenue
b) Hyperion owes more money than they can ever repay
c) game over
3. Hyperion sells everything AmigaOS related and/or settles
a) Hyperion may receive funds to survive and legal costs are reduced
b) Hyperion could then go back to porting games"

Another quote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1xAUfdK9FE

Seriously, does anybody in his or her right mind truly believe none of these "issues" are considered prior to Hyperion taking a certain action?

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Hyperion-Director 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 19-Apr-2021 5:13:15
#1209 ]
New Member
Joined: 27-Mar-2021
Posts: 7
From: Unknown

@matthey

Thanks for bringing J-Core to my attention, first time I heard of this CPU architecture.

Obviously I was aware of the previous Hitachi offerings.

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SHADES 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 19-Apr-2021 6:13:15
#1210 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 671
From: Melbourne

@DiscreetFX

"Apple got x86 working on ARM chips no problem."

The instruction set in ARM is very different to x86 and Apple uses Rosetta to emulate/interperate missing instructions. It is not without problems or performance hits either.
A lot like UAE for AMIGA in this instance.

Last edited by SHADES on 19-Apr-2021 at 06:13 AM.

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LadyJane 
Re: Trevor's role
Posted on 19-Apr-2021 6:26:45
#1211 ]
New Member
Joined: 5-Aug-2019
Posts: 4
From: Unknown

@A1200

Quote:
Trevor Dickinson himself says he throws money at these ventures for the love of it with no hope of ever recuperating it.


Can you see how throwing money like this also nourished corruption and lawsuits? Real love needs attention, not money. The moment people started longing for Trevor's money, this community changed for the worse.

@Birbo

Quote:
Do you think a roundtable meeting with Trevor and Michele would be a good idea?


Why Trevor?

He funded Hyperion's lawsuits against Amiga in the 2000s. His money is still being used against Amiga & Cloanto. Judging by where he puts his money, he seems to want war, not peace.

Trevor is also a Hyperion shareholder. Whoever owns even only a handful of shares is 100% obliged to do what is best for the company, and not act against it. Any shareholder would know that.

For more than 10 years, Trevor had the option of selling his Hyperion shares and demand repayment of the lawsuit money (it shows on the books as a loan, after all). That could have stopped all war. But he never did.

Even if Hyperion fails, Trevor could hope to buy every last scrap. The parties may lose, but the person who invested in war always wins.

So again, why Trevor?

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ppcamiga1 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 19-Apr-2021 7:28:23
#1212 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 229
From: Unknown

@SHADES

Quote:
My point was that ARM is not designed to be little endian.

ARM was designed to be little endian.

Quote:
I wanted to know that if this was the biggest problem, and ARM does not have this requirement,

On bi-endian ARM data is big endian, code is little endian.
what causes many compatibility problems.

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SHADES 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 19-Apr-2021 7:35:54
#1213 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 671
From: Melbourne

@ppcamiga1

Joe Zbiciak
, ~20 years as processor architect
Answered 2 years ago · Upvoted by Ed Bell
, 25+ yrs prof experience supporting networked computers. · Author has 3.4K answers and 14.5M answer views

The ARM architecture in principle supports both.

In fact, it’s theoretically possible to have big endian processes running under a little endian supervisor, and vice versa. The ARM architecture* lets you specify what endian to run its exception handlers in—and that includes system calls and interrupts—separately of the currently active endianness.

In practice, the vast majority of ARM devices you encounter will be running in little endian mode. That’s where the software ecosystem is.

* At least as of ARMv7. Not sure about earlier architecture versions, as I’m much less familiar with them.
30.1K viewsView upvotes
View shares
· Answer requested by Greg Campbell

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Mobileconnect 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 19-Apr-2021 7:37:48
#1214 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2003
Posts: 378
From: Unknown

@Hyperion-Director

"Seriously, does anybody in his or her right mind truly believe none of these "issues" are considered prior to Hyperion taking a certain action?"

We all wonder what game you're playing mate. If you want your debts paid off, just bloody say it. If you are expecting to make some profit on your investment - sorry, you poisoned the well, too late for that. If you want to own it all, then we'd all prefer a scorched earth policy from everyone else at this point.

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A1200 
Re: Trevor's role
Posted on 19-Apr-2021 7:47:50
#1215 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-May-2003
Posts: 3063
From: Westhall, UK

@LadyJane

In the UK at least it's the directors who have to act in the company's best interest, the shareholders don't run the company unless they are directors too. Shareholders can vote to remove a board or would have certain rights regarding sale of the company, new shares etc which would be outlined in any articles.

I don't think Trevor is a bad guy, he's just so keen on progressing Amiga he backs any horse that may achieve that end. Keeping shares in a company gives you rights to minutes and so forth so it pays to remain a shareholder if you want an idea of what's going on beyond the press releases.

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kolla 
Re: Trevor's role
Posted on 19-Apr-2021 8:11:31
#1216 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1636
From: Trondheim, Norway

This whole endianess debate for _current_ ARM is pointless - the point was what was available _at the time_ and back then, ARMv5 days, XScale etc, BE-32 was the option and it was quite available. Again, I say this as someone who not just read about it, but who actually used it.

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Birbo 
Re: Trevor's role
Posted on 19-Apr-2021 10:21:41
#1217 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Apr-2007
Posts: 554
From: Zurich, Switzerland

@LadyJane

To answer your question about mine - this is my opinion:

If there is a will to bring the legal framework in the area of "Amiga" to rest, then the people who are currently actively involved in it and can also exert influence should come together.

Be it financially or by means of their role. Trevor Dickinson has been very active in the past years and still is - so I would welcome it if he would also be included in the discussions.

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Fl@sh 
Re: Trevor's role
Posted on 19-Apr-2021 12:32:35
#1218 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2004
Posts: 215
From: Napoli - Italy

@All

About endianless of ARM architecture I have to say things are not how they was described in prior posts.
At least until ARM V7 architecture.

As I remembered, and probably confirmed here, instruction/registers are always in Little Endian mode and only data access can be performed in Big Endian mode.
This is due networking devices where ARM cpus are very common, in this way cpu doesn't have to swap nibbles between LE and BE modes.
If someone can confirm this and can extend the case even on ARM V8 arch is welcome.

This way to run represents a big stone on OS4 porting on ARM.
Maybe IMHO could be much better use Talos Blackbird systems with Power8/Power9 ultrafast cpus with ECC Memory support and port OS4 here.
Blackbird is all opensource so you don't have to ask but only to read docs, work on it and just make things happen.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 19-Apr-2021 13:27:52
#1219 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 229
From: Unknown

@SHADES

In theory ARM may work as real big endian cpu.
In real life on bi endian ARM code is little endian and data is big endian.
Which results in changes in code.
What makes ARM useless for Amiga Os.
Because the whole point of use 32 bit big endian cpu is to use old code without changes.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 19-Apr-2021 13:40:24
#1220 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 229
From: Unknown

@matthey

AInc lost Amiga Os as a compensation for work that AInc ordered but not want to pay for.
2009 Agreement was fair.
2009 Agreement left AInc rights to use Amiga Os for games only
as long as gui is not exposed to end user.
This is big part of market.
What mr Batalia is doing, the whole court case is stupid.
He should use what already has.

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