@geen_naam

The question becomes does Aeon like to inherit all the legal problems Hyperion has? ot buy only stuff that is considered additions or replacements, and what % of the OS can be considered clean room.

With out Hyperion they can’t use name AmigaOS or Workbnech, or AmigaONE, they need to rebrand everything.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Jun-2021 at 06:11 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Jun-2021 at 06:07 PM.

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@geen_naam

Quote:

In the open source scenario. There will be multiple directions.

One of those "directions" will become dominant. The cost in terms of time and resources of maintaining a fork is very high. This pattern is observable in many existing open source projects.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

I believe "Workbnech" would be allowed.

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@geen_naam

Kjetil is speaking in terms of the current "status quo" situation, so he's correct on how it is now.

If the Amiga Parties prevail, then you don't have this certainty to count on. It is this uncertainty that causes some of the fear.

We can't do anything about that atm because the lawyers won't allow the Amiga Parties to discuss plans in public. Sorry.

#6

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@geen_naam

Quote:

But what if Hyperion lost the case. They lose amigaos4 as well and it's sold to Aeon.

The only thing Hyperion owns is Reaction. The rest is licensed from Amiga Inc. (Trademarks, OS3 code) and a whole bunch of external developers (all the new code in OS4).

If Hyperion loses the court case, the only thing they could sell to A-EON is Reaction. For everything else, you'd have to negotiate new licenses with Amiga Corporation and all the developers. Which brings us back to "other entities' code" and "I know the amiga.org guy!".

Quote:

Would you support that?

No, it would be just more of them same. Trevor Dickinson is the guy who financed Hyperion's original lawsuit against Amiga Inc, he's a Hyperion shareholder and creditor and he's also the guy who's been refusing to shut them down for years. And once he acquired Exec SG, he immediately put Ben's old lapdog in charge of the project. None of that sounds like a fresh start to me.

Plus I don't see anything that would convince me that A-EON/Amigakit are good at project management or leadership. Tabor has been announced in 2015, LibreOffice in 2012, old press releases routinely vanish from their websites, they remove all occurences of "AmigaOne" from their wiki while claiming it didn't happen, delist Hyperion from their webshop without explaining it etc.

They basically just throw money at things, and then try to recoup that from users. Sometimes they get lucky (Hans), sometimes not so much (purchases of Aladdin 4D and Octamed, Xena...)

@cgutjahr

Quote:

cgutjahr wrote: I'm discussing AmigaOS, which means A-EON and Amigakit are off-topic here.

They may be off-topic now, but we don't know what happens after the trial. It's no big secret that Mike, Trevor and Matthew are good buddies...

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@AP

Not so sure Mike has cost Trever a lot of money and put his business into jeopardy, not sure what love there is left there.

I’m sure Trever will try to make deal after dust is settled, but what has happened here, should have put up some red flags, you can’t have militant bully as business partner.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Jun-2021 at 09:14 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Jun-2021 at 09:10 PM.

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@cgutjahr

Quote:

For starters, OS4 used to include (commercial) graphics drivers. Having to pay for drivers now is a sign that things are getting worse.

OS4 ISO has four native drivers included:

Permedia (Hyperion)
Voodoo (Hyperion)

ATIRadeon (owned by A-EON)
RadeonHD Lite (owned by A-EON)

Are you really stating that an old Permedia or Voodoo driver is anywhere near the complexity of a RadeonHD or RadeonRX driver which are included in the Enhancer Software? The native Permedia/Voodoo drivers are for cards that are 15-20 years older than the modern RadeonHD / RX cards catered for by the Enhancer Software. Two decades of advancements in graphics card technology represents substantially increased development times. A-EON commissioned Hans to develop the drivers on a non-mainstream platform. He had to fathom out parts of the hardware that were undocumented by AMD and even contributed information back to them. All of this took years of development time and substantial associated costs.

The new drivers are certainly not a sign of things getting worse. Would you want the real retro experience of running OS4 with a Voodoo or Permedia card?


Quote:

In a sane project, once the devs have identified graphics.library as a component that badly needs an overhaul, the project leader approaches one or two guys (Hans...) and asks them to do some research on that topic and come up with a plan - including a vague roadmap and a list of potential (compatibility) issues. Then you try to find a way (money, buttkissing, hardware donations, peer pressure...) to make Hans work on that.

Assuming there is actually a Development Project Leader at Hyperion and a Graphics Development Roadmap: why is Hans going to do such a significant body of work for beer money. donations and peer pressure? In the real world, he has to pay bills and earn money to provide for his family.

When OS 4.1 Final Edition retails for 29 EURO, there is never going to be enough money generated to fund meaningful development. Hyperion know this.

Quote:

I was simply trying to say that the latter option is not making the best use of the Hans resource

Its the only viable option in the circumstances and it has yield spectacular results amongst mammoth amounts of work from Hans:

RadeonHD
RadeonHD Southern Islands
RadeonRX
Warp3D Nova
Power Management API
Video Acceleration

Last edited by amigakit on 03-Jun-2021 at 10:13 PM.

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Quote:

Are you really stating [...]

I'm saying that OS4 came with Bill Toner's Radeon drivers included, which were - at the time of release - about as uptodate as Hans' drivers are now. But the latter are not part of the OS but need to be purchased separately - which is one of many signs that the situation has gotten worse.

This is not Hans' fault, or yours. It's obviously Hyperion's fault.

Quote:

why is Hans going to do such a significant body of work for beer money. donations and peer pressure?

1. I said 'money' not 'beer money'. If money is required, there are ways to secure funding: a crowdfunding campaign, selling a collector's edition in a nice box...

2. You're implying Hans is the only one qualified to do that job. At least four or five people have been doing graphic drivers and related work on AmigaOS, MorphOS or AROS in the last few years. Thomas Richter is working on a P96 graphics driver right now, for example.

3. You're also implying Hans only does this for the money. I can't judge that, obviously - but the man seems to be in love with what he's doing - like a lot of other developers in this community. I won't automatically assume paying him in full is the only option.

Quote:

Assuming there is actually a Development Project Leader at Hyperion and a Graphics Development Roadmap

LOL.

@cgutjahr

Quote:

I'm saying that OS4 came with Bill Toner's Radeon drivers included, which were - at the time of release - about as uptodate as Hans' drivers are now.

When A-EON purchased the ATI Radeon drivers from Forefront Technologies Inc. they reminisced how much work they did to create the drivers whilst working with ATI under NDA at the time. I would not want to minimise this huge effort because it was a great achievement at the time. Bill co-worked with Joshua Helms at Forefront to create this driver.

Rolling on a decade, the amazing work that Hans did on his own to create RadeonHD was a mammoth task in comparison. The complexity of the modern cards are an order of magnitude greater than their predecessors and comparisons are not valid. It always astonishes me that Hans pulled it off. AMD would have a large team of developers doing the same driver work for mainstream platforms.

Quote:

But the latter are not part of the OS but need to be purchased separately - which is one of many signs that the situation has gotten worse.

Of course the RadeonHD driver is third party and not part of OS4. There was little prospect of it ever being created as part of OS4 due to lack of resources and other reasons. That is not a necessarily a sign that things have got worse as many end-users are enjoying the benefits of modern graphics cards. Similarly modern shader 3D system, video acceleration and power management are here through third-party independent development.

Quote:

I said 'money' not 'beer money'. If money is required, there are ways to secure funding: a crowdfunding campaign, selling a collector's edition in a nice box...

I doubt any of your proposed initiatives would raise funds in the order of magnitude to pay a developer for several years to do this work. The "collector's edition in a nice box" was a tongue-in-cheek suggestion I presume?


Quote:

You're implying Hans is the only one qualified to do that job. At least four or five people have been doing graphic drivers

Mark Olsen is the other notable developer who has astonishing abilities to create these highly sophisticated drivers. I don't have first hand knowledge of anyone else working on graphics drivers at this level. Lets hope more talent comes through in our community in the future.

Last edited by amigakit on 04-Jun-2021 at 12:06 AM.
Last edited by amigakit on 04-Jun-2021 at 12:04 AM.
Last edited by amigakit on 04-Jun-2021 at 12:02 AM.

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Frank Mariak.

@thread

Someone didn't care for the last court ruling in favor of the Amiga Parties.
Wonder who? heh.

brief detail from Pacer

Big news. Ben located his attorney.

#6

Last edited by number6 on 04-Jun-2021 at 02:45 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @AP Not so sure Mike has cost Trever a lot of money and put his business into jeopardy, not sure what love there is left there. I’m sure Trever will try to make deal after dust is settled, but what has happened here, should have put up some red flags, you can’t have militant bully as business partner.

As always, free speech etc ... I appreciate every debate ... but sometimes ... a debate is really not helped by input that is clearly not fact based.

Evert

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@jorit2

Ok let’s elaborate on that, when Ben and Trever D, partnered up create company AEON, ben did take money from AEON to cover legal costs, only after it had happened Trever D found out about it, these parts of public records. These legal costs as direct consequence of legal disputes between Hyperion and Cloanto.

Ongoing legal disputes between Hyperion and Cloanto, has been disaster for Hyperion ability pay developers, and can have most likely delayed product from shipping? Fact or fiction?

A1222 had to be redesign becouse has not shipped on time, parts can no longer be obtained, fact or fiction?

Because legal disputes, Trever D, had to buy ExecSG, and pay the developer for there work, work Hyperion should have played for, is this not direct consequence of the legal disputes?

A-EON / Trever D had to remove "AmigaONE" from all its web pages, due to ongoing legal disputes.

Costumers’ uncertainty has not costed A-EON / Trever D any money?

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 04-Jun-2021 at 07:07 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 04-Jun-2021 at 07:04 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 04-Jun-2021 at 07:01 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 04-Jun-2021 at 07:00 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 04-Jun-2021 at 06:59 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 04-Jun-2021 at 06:53 PM.

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Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @jorit2 Ok let’s elaborate on that, when Ben and Trever D, partnered up create company AEON, ben did take money from AEON to cover legal costs, only after it had happened Trever D found out about it, these parts of public records. These legal costs as direct consequence of legal disputes between Hyperion and Cloanto. Ongoing legal disputes between Hyperion and Cloanto, has been disaster for Hyperion ability pay developers, and can have most likely delayed product from shipping? Fact or fiction? A1222 had to be redesign becouse has not shipped on time, parts can no longer be obtained, fact or fiction? Because legal disputes, Trever D, had to buy ExecSG, and pay the developer for there work, work Hyperion should have played for, is this not direct consequence of the legal disputes? AEON had to remove "AmigaONE" from all its web pages, due to ongoing legal disputes. Costumers’ uncertainty has not costed AEON any money?

I'm not elaborating on any of that.
I was just commenting on what you posted, about the relationship between Mike and Trevor as if it were a fact.

Other than that: You're asking me to elaborate on things that went on after I left, or was not a part of.
Other than what I heard mostly through the grapevine, hearsay in other words, I am not privy to what went on between Ben and Trevor regarding A-EON. I chose not to be a part of AEON or the X1000 project.
Same applies to anything related to A1222.
Given my current position I may or may not have a little insight in the dispute between Hyperion and Cloanto ... but then again ... given my position I'm not in a position to talk about it.

Evert

Besides, you don't even believe I am really who I claim to be

Last edited by jorit2 on 04-Jun-2021 at 08:28 PM.
Last edited by jorit2 on 04-Jun-2021 at 07:21 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Let me take a look based on your paragraphs...
Quote:

Ok let’s elaborate on that, when Ben and Trever D, partnered up create company AEON, ben did take money from AEON to cover legal costs, only after it had happened Trever D found out about it, these parts of public records. These legal costs as direct consequence of legal disputes between Hyperion and Cloanto.

Mini timeline in case it helps...

Trevor Dickinson, Anthony Moorley, and Ben Hermans formed A-Eon (Belgium)
The event referred to as the forgery/theft/bank fraud (depending on which article you use as a source) was discovered by Anthony.
Anthony couldn't leave fast enough, after which the A-Eon (as you know it now) was formed without Ben Hermans obviously.

This event in turn means the X1000 project suffers, later to be introduced at Bletchley (retro show). Trevor later writes openly about having to get the project back on track.
2010 show report

As we are talking about the year 2010 here...I don't understand your connection to a lawsuit that began 7 years later. Sorry.

Paragraph 2. I don't know which exact product you refer to, so I'll skip that one.

Paragraph 3:
Quote:

A1222 had to be redesigned becouse has not shipped on time, parts can no longer be obtained, fact or fiction?

The only factual public info on this would be the obvious redesign due to the parts obsolescence. Only Trevor and Matthew could speak to other issues, but since the work shifted to Acube and was not planned that way originally...there might be an issue there.

Most of the rest would have to be answered by Trevor.

But re:Amigaone
You'll note a clickable link for X5000 on amiga.org wiki, but not for X1000.
Source
As X1000 began under the first incarnation of A-Eon, it maintains its connection to partnership with Hyperion in its own wiki.
Source

#6

Last edited by number6 on 04-Jun-2021 at 07:55 PM.
Last edited by number6 on 04-Jun-2021 at 07:43 PM.
Last edited by number6 on 04-Jun-2021 at 07:35 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

Ok let’s elaborate on that, when Ben and Trever D, partnered up create company AEON, ben did take money from AEON to cover legal costs, only after it had happened Trever D found out about it, these parts of public records. These legal costs as direct consequence of legal disputes between Hyperion and Cloanto.

TIL: Ben Hermans has a time machine.

@Rose

Some factual errors, but anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdZ5zIAFaCs

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

Ok let’s elaborate on that, when Ben and Trever D, partnered up create company AEON, ben did take money from AEON to cover legal costs, only after it had happened Trever D found out about it, these parts of public records. These legal costs as direct consequence of legal disputes between Hyperion and Cloanto.

No. the legal costs that nearly bankrupted Hyperion and made Ben allegedly (according to Trevor) steal money from A-EON Belgium are from the 2007-2009 lawsuit against Amiga Inc. A litigation Hyperion (i.e. Ben) provoked, hoping he could get his hands on OS4 that way.

Quote:

Ongoing legal disputes between Hyperion and Cloanto, has been disaster for Hyperion ability pay developers, and can have most likely delayed product from shipping? Fact or fiction?

Hyperion hasn't really been paying developers for more than a decade. The Cloanto-Hyperion litigation started in December 2017.

Quote:

Trever D, had to buy ExecSG

Another consequence of the Hyperion-Amiga litigation: the Friedens were no longer getting paid, after a few years of that they sold to Trevor. Nothing to do with Mike Battilana.

Quote:

A-EON / Trever D had to remove "AmigaONE" from all its web pages, due to ongoing legal disputes.

No, they had to do that because of their decade-long, ongoing bitch fight with Hyperion. Again, this has nothing to do with Cloanto.

Quote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdZ5zIAFaCs

That speech was given 11 months before Cloanto sued Hyperion, I doubt Trevor says anything in that video regarding Cloanto, but I'm not going to watch a 30 minute video to find out.

(Edit: typos)

Last edited by cgutjahr on 04-Jun-2021 at 10:00 PM.

@cgutjahr

I was also wondering about the point of that link.

I actually watched it again.

All I can think of is Trevor's mention that Mike introduced him to Ben. Perhaps that's why Mike is blamed?

#6

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