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/  Forum Index
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      /  Kalamatee Needs Support
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wawa 
Re: Kalamatee Needs Support
Posted on 25-Jan-2020 13:06:40
#41 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

i always considered the bounty system sub optimal, since it lets a lot of funds sit unused on accounts dedicated to either obsolete tasks or such that hasnt got any attention for years. therefore i tried to only support bounties when trusty people habe been appointed, not before, and this itself puts the whole system a bit into a question.

looks like kalamatee is putting some draft documentation, what concerns aros funding up on github. maybe some concept emerges how to handle it.

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OlafS25 
Re: Kalamatee Needs Support
Posted on 25-Jan-2020 13:10:27
#42 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5733
From: Unknown

@wawa

I still think the idea is not bad but for a long time there was no activity anymore. With recent developments (Aros+Vampire) it seems better to me to directly support involved developers

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ASiegel 
Re: Kalamatee Needs Support
Posted on 25-Jan-2020 13:19:51
#43 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2013
Posts: 195
From: Unknown

@wawa

Quote:
then please be clear about it, because your previous statement sounds as if the
bounty was completed and the appointed developer has not claimed it.

Well, this may very well be the case. We just do not know the current status.

Your previous comment claims that you were told we could have paid out the funds long ago, which would suggest all the work is done...

In any case, I merely pointed out that there is AROS-related work out there that Kalamatee would be paid for. Just as I pointed out the last time the same topic came up.

Quote:
now, what concerns the bug report, is the description available somewhere?

Please read again what I wrote. We do not know what the bug is and we did not receive a reply when we asked about it.

We only know that there is a bug because the developer reported that there would be.

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Mazze 
Re: Kalamatee Needs Support
Posted on 25-Jan-2020 13:32:04
#44 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 3-Aug-2013
Posts: 41
From: Unknown

@ASiegel

Then there is the funds:
https://www.power2people.org/funds/aros/

"The allocation of the money will be decided by a group of AROS community representatives"

Who is against paying some money of that funds to Nick and Michal?

_________________
AROS - Make code not war

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Kalamatee Needs Support
Posted on 25-Jan-2020 13:35:54
#45 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 208
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

you are nerving "my friend"

In the past someone even offered him a job (of course not where he lives now) but it seems there are personal reasons why he stays where he is now (and not because of lethargy or Aros).

Comments like yours (without any background knowledge) are not really helping anyone



Friend OlafS25,

I am sorry to nerve you. I don't think I ever nerved anyone, and I am not even sure what this exotic process might entail! But nonetheless, please accept my deepest and utmost sincere apologies.

Believe, I have all the background knowledge that is needed in order to comment. If anything, it is you who are telling me that I don't have the background knowledge, without really knowing whether I have it or not. See?

Funny that you even cited one anedocte that adds up to my theory. That one is struggling to make ends meet, but rejects a job, is a red flag in itself.

Either way, I wish the best to our mutual friend Kalamatee, and great developments for Aros.

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR,
MEGA_RJ_MICAL

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I HAVE ABS OF STEEL

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terminills 
Re: Kalamatee Needs Support
Posted on 25-Jan-2020 13:37:12
#46 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1388
From: Unknown

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL


I guess that depends on how you value said pet project.

Some people support development of AmigaOS4 by buying $3000 machines, Some people support MorphOS by buying License keys, for me I supported AROS because it's my pet project of choice by I wouldn't even call it a donation but by paying to support projects of choice.

It certainly would be great if Kalamatee had a full-time job. however, he doesn't so it's quite simple really. Does the community value his time enough to support his ongoing efforts to continue development?

Look back at all the threads started about how we should pool our resources together to pay for a full-time developer. Well, here you have an opportunity to do just that.

All that being said if the community decided to contribute enough to pay him as he was a fulltime employee. It should be handled as if he was an employee and give him a list of requirements as you would do with any other employee.

_________________
Support AROS sponsor a developer.

"AROS is prolly illegal ~ Evert Carton" intentionally quoted out of context for dramatic effect

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ASiegel 
Re: Kalamatee Needs Support
Posted on 25-Jan-2020 13:46:53
#47 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2013
Posts: 195
From: Unknown

@Mazze

Quote:
Who is against paying some money of that funds to Nick and Michal?


I guess you are not aware but this is actually a loaded question.

What I can say is: Personally, I have absolutely no preferences regarding how funds are spent as long as it can be clearly communicated what donors are receiving in return for their contributions.

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Mazze 
Re: Kalamatee Needs Support
Posted on 25-Jan-2020 14:08:49
#48 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 3-Aug-2013
Posts: 41
From: Unknown

@ASiegel

Okay, I don't know what the donors expect for the money.

_________________
AROS - Make code not war

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cdimauro 
Re: Kalamatee Needs Support
Posted on 26-Jan-2020 20:42:34
#49 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2096
From: Germany

@OlafS25 Quote:
OlafS25 wrote:
@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

you are nerving "my friend"

In the past someone even offered him a job (of course not where he lives now) but it seems there are personal reasons why he stays where he is now (and not because of lethargy or Aros).

I do not know the details and it is not my job to judge or not

Telecommuting is a concrete possibility nowadays.

A few years ago I was contacted by a Red Hat headhunter, and they offered a position which didn't required relocation to the headquarter (Brno).

A couple of months ago a friend of mine applied for a position for SUSE (BTW, last weekend I was in Nurenberg, in the same building where they have several offices. Nice place, and beautiful city! ), and they offered a remote job as well.

On some Python conferences there were recruiting sections and several companies offered remote jobs (one company had ONLY remote jobs!).

Those just to give some examples.

I don't think that it'll be difficult to get some good position, especially with his skills (which are appreciated in the industry).
Quote:
For Aros development he is a piece of luck so people who support Aros should support him financially. I did in the past (even recently) and will certainly do in future.

From some of his messages on the AROS-Exec it looks like he'd like to be paid for working to AROS. So, like an employee. This is the idea which I've built reading him.

Which I think is very very difficult, especially considering the nano-niche market which the post-Amiga platforms occupy, and AROS in particular.

I also would like to work full-time on CPython (I've tons of ideas on how to make it much faster), but... this isn't possible.

Those are projects were you can contribute in your spare time. Maybe taking some money with the bounties mechanism, like for AROS.
Quote:
Comments like yours (without any background knowledge) are not really helping anyone

It's better to don't touch this key, and you know why...

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Kalamatee Needs Support
Posted on 27-Jan-2020 1:37:40
#50 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 208
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:
From some of his messages on the AROS-Exec it looks like he'd like to be paid for working to AROS. So, like an employee. This is the idea which I've built reading him.

I also would like to work full-time on CPython (I've tons of ideas on how to make it much faster), but... this isn't possible.


See, what friend cdimauro is writing here, is exactly what I meant and perceived.
It's a mechanism I know oh so well, my friends!

This tricky, tricky internet of ours, tempting some to remain jobless and hold on just a bit more, just a bit more, because the crowds might eventually fund them to work on just what they like, be it Aros, a comic, a podcast... not one of those dreary jobs that people usually have to put up with.

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kolla 
Re: Kalamatee Needs Support
Posted on 27-Jan-2020 4:18:00
#51 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1469
From: Trondheim, Norway

I support AROS developers and the idea of supporting AROS monetarily simply for the sheer irony that AROS developers would then be the only paid OS developers in Amiga land, and that flies in the face of the developers of the official commercial Amiga OS, who are not paid at all, and where all funding/profit goes to people who do jack nothing development.

So, for the sake of irony and taunting unpaid slaves of OS3 and OS4 development - support the developers of the free and open source AROS :)

Last edited by kolla on 27-Jan-2020 at 04:19 AM.
Last edited by kolla on 27-Jan-2020 at 04:18 AM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Kalamatee Needs Support
Posted on 27-Jan-2020 5:55:23
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2096
From: Germany

@kolla: I also support AROS developers, but IMO it's better to finance bounties that you like to be completed. This way you set the goals, and you're sure to get something back.

AROS has still A LOT of things needed (and more can come for sure), so developers have only to decide where to spend their time.

But directly giving money to developers is a mistake that I'll never do again.

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Overflow 
Re: Kalamatee Needs Support
Posted on 27-Jan-2020 8:42:41
#53 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1627
From: Norway

@cdimauro

I totally get your point of view/expirience.

I have a different approach to this, which is;

A developer/proejct has currently reached x level of progress.
I understand this is a "hobbist" level project, and I adjust my expectations accordingly.

Whenever I allocate funds to a project/developer, I essentially buy into the project at x level, and wont get bent out of shape if thats the last version of said project.

Ofcourse, everyone hopes there are futher updates/developments.
And Ive been around these forums, knowing that some/many will bounce off the walls if they dont get developments on par with 2020 technologies, but I have difficulties taking them serious.

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wawa 
Re: Kalamatee Needs Support
Posted on 27-Jan-2020 11:46:37
#54 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:
I also support AROS developers,


im not aware, which form your support takes and who or what task you are you supporting right now but even if its just kind words, its a good attitude. thanks for that.

Quote:
but IMO it's better to finance bounties that you like to be completed.


as we have been discussing earlier in this thread bounties are fine when there is a pool of interested developers around by no means an ideal solution when there are only a handful of them left. there is a huge pile of funds on not assigned, unfinished or not claimed bounties parked on sites like power2people for years now. personally i usually dont support a bounty as long as i dont see anyone assigned to it who could actually be fulfilling it, this was the case with aros kickstart in the end, luckily.

Quote:
This way you set the goals


maybe. but i have my doubts, that the general public really knows better in every detail, what priorities to set and what and how really needs to be done. a discussion about that is certainly healthy, but just setting up bounties that cannot later be adjusted later is similarly like asiegel has worded it, introducing "loaded" issues, rather than solving anything.

Quote:
But directly giving money to developers is a mistake that I'll never do again.


not sure what that bad experience was,but..

funny enough aros development is getting off exactly when the available competent developers are receiving some kind of direct support in this or other form, namely since they have at least partly an appropriate hardware to work on the matter, the reference hardware they code for, and probably some partial compensation for their own investments, time and effort.

quite a while ago deadwood proposed on eab bounties for stuff like palette prefs and overscan, that would be essential to fulfil compatibility requirements especially for m68k target. the response has been very limited and the pledges actually nonexistent. i told him that time, that it unfortunately wont work like that. now, about a month ago essential support for paletted screens along with fixed palette prefs has been introduced and foundation for overscan and overscan prefs lied out just within few days since kalamatee and michal could work on vamp hardware.

there are so many improvements in this short time that it is sometimes hard to keep track of it. there is constant chat and flow on info on development channel. the commit flow in numbers. the atmosphere is constructive. not sure whats there to complain about.

Last edited by wawa on 27-Jan-2020 at 10:53 PM.

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SHADES 
Re: Kalamatee Needs Support
Posted on 27-Jan-2020 22:47:22
#55 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 652
From: Melbourne

@Overflow

Donated.

_________________
It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

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ne_one 
Re: Kalamatee Needs Support
Posted on 28-Jan-2020 1:08:38
#56 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 882
From: Unknown

@wawa

Quote:
i have my doubts, that the general public really knows better in every detail, what priorities to set and what and how really needs to be done. a discussion about that is certainly healthy, but just setting up bounties that cannot later be adjusted later is similarly like asiegel has worded it, introducing "loaded" issues, rather than solving anything.


As with anything, there is a reasonable compromise that protects both sides. Even a very high-level proposal provides a roadmap that can be tracked for progress.

Surely there is a key group that decides priorities for AROS development?

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OlafS25 
Re: Kalamatee Needs Support
Posted on 28-Jan-2020 9:31:35
#57 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5733
From: Unknown

@ne_one

the current key developers are michal and kal who basically decide

of course the priorities also depend on feedback from outside (at the moment from vampire/apollo team)

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ASiegel 
Re: Kalamatee Needs Support
Posted on 28-Jan-2020 15:26:04
#58 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2013
Posts: 195
From: Unknown

@Mazze

Quote:
Okay, I don't know what the donors expect for the money.


I think the only reasonable expectation would be "transparency" and a public explanation of spending decisions, just as happens with bounty projects.

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ASiegel 
Re: Kalamatee Needs Support
Posted on 28-Jan-2020 15:44:08
#59 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2013
Posts: 195
From: Unknown

@wawa

Quote:
just setting up bounties that cannot later be adjusted later is similarly like asiegel has worded it, introducing "loaded" issues, rather than solving anything.

Actually, there are examples of bounty projects that were cancelled and replaced with new ones, which included moving funds. Of course, these projects were still related and not completely dissimilar to what donors originally agreed to pay for.

Also, just for the record, I used the wording "loaded" because mazze clearly did not consider the theoretical possibility that there might be an answer other than "nobody." Put differently, one should be careful about which questions you would like to see answered in public and consider the potential consequences.

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wawa 
Re: Kalamatee Needs Support
Posted on 28-Jan-2020 16:16:47
#60 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@ASiegel

Quote:
"transparency"


it has been discussed before on a number of occasions and at least according to my recollection moving around the funds to adopt the situation better was pretty much never possible. at least since im involved.

im not complaining. and p2p has obviously provided a good service earlier. but, independently of good will, it doesnt seem to serve its purpose under current circumstances.

for the moment more immediate and informal means of cooperation and support seem to work out better. the people on our slack channels contribute to common cause as much as they can. everyone can check and decide for themselves who is doing what and who deserves what. the same with general public. the satisfied "customer base" seems to be growing day by day and basing their support on the actual progress.

people involved with the teams are trying to communicate what is being done, nick and matthias wrote a summary not long ago, and the progress and its priorities can be clearly observed in commit logs.

Last edited by wawa on 28-Jan-2020 at 04:17 PM.

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