@pavlor

Natami was the project of one man, Thomas Hirsch so Vampire, Apollo and so on are really something different. The only common link is that work for apollo core started when Natami officially still existed

@NutsAboutAmiga

No Vampire was designed after Natami, the only common link is apollo core which was started while Natami still officially was alive. I do not understand why people are so hard trying to prove that the project progress is at least as slow as that of 4.X. They are publishing one new improved core after the other now and new hardware.

Regarding Tabor and standalone I do not think that they directly compete because of different platforms (4.X and 68k/3.X) but they compete about limited resources if people only have room and/or money for one of them.

@NutsAboutAmiga

amiga is a small hobby niche platform

nothing is taking off here

@ferrels

Why don't you apply to Aeon / Hyperion to write the drivers as you seem to think it is so easy. Neither machine is available yet that's why I said race. A1222 is predicted to be out by Christmas much the same as the Vampire and both will most likely serve my requirements ok.

Requirements

Play old games
Play MP3 / Video
Email
Internet

Not to demanding....

_________________
A1200 ACA1232 128MB Indivison MkIICr
Elbox empty Power Tower
RPi3 Emulating C64 ZX Atari PS BBC
Wii with Amiga emulation
Vampire v4 SA

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: Then there difference in different PowerPC chips, they all have different instructions, and CPU they picked for Tabor has exotic FPU

"Exotic"?!



The e500v2 is for PowerPC/Power ISA what ColdFire was to 680x0! This is not simply about missing instructions here but about instruction overlappings, i.e. same instructions doing different things on different cores.

It's not "exotic", it's simply not PowerPC compatible!

Here is what Debian developer Kyle Moffett said about it at the time:

Hello,

So I'm afraid I don't have powerpcspe hardware anymore; I left Boeing
to go work for Google in January. Unfortunately I believe the guys I
was working with there are all really crazy overworked right now, so I
don't actually know how much progress they are likely to make on it in
the next few _years_.

Additionally, even FreeScale appears to be abandoning the e500v2
hardware; all of their new chipset families are e500mc (32-bit) or
e5500 (64-bit), both of which return to classic PowerPC FPU and can
run normal "powerpc" Debian.

So if nobody is maintaining it anymore, perhaps the best thing to do
really is to kill it off quickly?

I wish things had turned out better for that, but on the other hand
I also wish I hadn't had to sink quite so much of my life into working
around FreeScale's braindead FPU design too, so...

Cheers,
Kyle Moffett

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @ferrels Quote: Until NG Amiga users start demanding a better OS and better hardware You mean ask Mai Logic to be resurrect from there bankruptcy and fix the AmigaONE-SE/XE? Eyetech, that sold the AmigaONE-XE and SE, kind disappeared. so good luck with that.

WHAT?! I'm sure nobody wants MAI back...

But there are rumors about OS4 going Mac PPC you know. Laptops in particular.

The Mac H/W is solid.

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @ferrels "Buy legacy PPC hardware", but MorphOS does not support RadionHD cards so that does help.

Are you sure about what GFX cards (and to what degree) MorphOS supports?

MorphOS developers are very skilled low level developers. GFX card driver development has AFAIK been a prioritized area of development for a very long time. The list of supported cards (as well as what is supported) has been growing constantly. So if one particular card should not be supported today, rest assured it's coming...

@Rob

Quote:

Rob wrote: It's down to limited resources rather than competence.

Are you sure?

To me it seems like most low level stuff (like GFX card driver support, other drivers, etc) is down at a very low development pace, if indeed moving forward at all. Makes you wonder if the true low level competence is still within the team? Most interesting developments seems to be conducted by third parties like AeonKit, like GFX card support, and not being part of OS4 at all.

@gregthecanuck

Quote:

gregthecanuck wrote: @ferrels I believe we actually saw photos of the "stacks" of A1222 boards that had been built in a posting somewhere. I have no doubt the production run has taken place.

I don't doubt it either. I believe Trevor said that a thousand boards had been produced and was sitting on the shelves. He seemed very sincere and I see no reason for hem to lie about something like that, what would be the point in that?

That was in 2015 I believe...?

Quote:

But a big shame for sure that the drivers are taking so long. I am sure Trevor is really enjoying seeing all his capital tied up in inventory. The opportunity cost just keeps growing...

1) It could be a lack of human resources and necessary low-level competence.

2) Another (darker) explanation could be motivation. Much has happened since then, behind the scenes. It could be that alliances has been formed? In this context is kind of interesting to see how Hyperion revoked AeonKit's license for Kickstart 40.72 ROM's while continuing to sell it themselves, and the sudden rumors about Hyperion working with ports for Apple H/W.

My point: Maybe Hyperion has no intention of releasing an OS4 port for Tabor?

Last edited by TRIPOS on 04-Aug-2017 at 01:23 PM.

@TRIPOS

Quote:

rumors about Hyperion working with ports for Apple H/W

They're only rumors because no one is allowed to talk about what they've seen (ie the latest version of OS4.1 running on ___).

Quote:

Are you sure about what GFX cards (and to what degree) MorphOS supports?

Currently, accelerated drivers top out at the R500 series (meaning the best card supported with acceleration is the Radeon X1950XTX - a card which is also supported by accelerated drivers under OS4).
However...updated drivers covering the rest of the Terascale2 cards (everything up to the Radeon HD 6000 series) are rumored to be near completion.
And GCN cards, while not supported in the next update, are an eventual target.

What should worry ALL PPC NG users is that our PCIe v1, v1.1, and v2.0 expansion slots may not support future video cards.
I've already received confirmation from AMD that older slots support GCN gen 1 cards, BUT will probably have a problem with later cards.
SO, are we at a dead end here?

Well, I see no GCN gen 2 support yet, let alone support for RX series cards.
AND, it might NOT be possible to support these.

Quote:

The e500v2 is for PowerPC/Power ISA what ColdFire was to 680x0! This is not simply about missing instructions here but about instruction overlappings, i.e. same instructions doing different things on different cores

A fair enough comparison, except at least the Coldfire cpus offer advantages like much higher clock speeds. What's the e500v2 offer? Nothing really, just a lower price.
And yes, its a dead end. A mistake, one that isn't compatible with the rest of the PowerPC ISA.

I've said this before, and I stand by it, a low end board for our community should be founded on the e5500 core based T10xx line. Similar pricing, no fpu issues, and they have a lot in common with the processors used in the X5000.

But apparently the 'faithful' in our community, yet again, are willing to put up with long delays for a second rate product.

Hey, I'm a big fan of Aeon and Varisys, but this design decision was a MISTAKE.
And with designs like this being floated, who needs MAI?

Last edited by iggy on 04-Aug-2017 at 12:41 PM.
Last edited by iggy on 04-Aug-2017 at 12:39 PM.
Last edited by iggy on 04-Aug-2017 at 12:23 PM.

@g01df1sh

I have no interest in A1222. It could come out tomorrow or 3 years from now; I don't care.
But I will most definitely be buying the Apollo V4. Standalone and the 1200.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

@agami

Understandable. I straddle this conundrum, in that I like the Vampire series, but I'd be willing to buy additional PPC hardware IF it was a worthwhile investment.
So, I'm just fanatical enough to be willing to pony up the price for an X5000, because the A1222 is too much of a compromise.

But, if its a choice between spending similar amounts....

OK, Vampire has my nod too!

Because we want the BEST we can get, not some budget piece of crap.

Last edited by iggy on 04-Aug-2017 at 01:31 PM.

@g01df1sh

If your requirements are:

Requirements

Play old games
Play MP3 / Video
Email
Internet

Then go for the A1222 as this is will probably be the one more likely to fulfill your needs.

Play Old Games Can be done either via runinUAE one click from the desktop using all your WHDload installs. RTG compatible games are supported in Amiga OS4 and will run natively examples Myst, Payback, Foundation.

Play Mp3 - Tunenet , AmigaAmp. Tunenet will support M4a files and countless others plus you have Shoutcast streaming

Play Video- Emotion Video player or Mplayer both ran well on a Sam 460 machine if thats an indication of performance.

Email- Yam or Simplemail Also access to webmail via Odyssey GoogleMail and Outlook work

Internet- Odyssey worked well on a Sam 460 and works really well on the X5000, so this will give you some idea

You also have Netsurf as a back up although this is a CSS based browser


Hope the above assessment helps

_________________
Amigaone X5000/20 4GB Radeon RX 550 Polaris 12 AmigaOS4.1 Final Edition Update 1
Amiga 1200 Workbench 3.1.4
Amiga CD32

@iggy

Quote:

iggy wrote: Quote: Are you sure about what GFX cards (and to what degree) MorphOS supports? Currently ... near completion ... an eventual target.

Present and upcoming. Which was exactly my point.

"NutsAboutAmiga" can say whatever he wants; I'm not at all worried about the GFX card support situation on MorphOS. Commitment is a fact and the development track record is solid.


Quote:

What should worry ALL PPC NG users is that our PCIe v1, v1.1, and v2.0 expansion slots may not support future video cards.

Not worried their either. I have had very much fun and use for the perfectly supported R200 and R300 cards in my machines for 1.5 decades. Drivers are good, S/W is there to make use of it. In the mean time, OS4 users has been chasing a "PCIe" dragon, resulting in never having had good overlay, good 2D and 3D accelleration, etc. And when finally a third party publisher releases some 3D drivers, they were whipped by a 400MHz Efika with it's "AGP 1x" and old-world GFX. And the available S/W we have is the same old-world S/W anyway, so...

No point in chasing the latest and the greatest GFX, when the computer you run it on can't even dream of saturating it because it's way too weak, dimensions behind in performance. If you look back in history, you'll see how various CPU/chipset/GPU generations matches each other. R200-R520 cards are perfect matches for the kind of 2005 level computer performance we are dealing with in the PPC world.

PCIe v4 is rolling out now. PCIe v4 cards will work fine in H/W where they make sense, i.e. in modern PCIe v4 motherboards (CPU/Chipset/GPU, hand in hand). Bolting on a PCIe v4 level GFX card on a 2005 level PPC machine is bordering to stupidity. There is no S/W for such a computer that can utilize such a GFX card. So no, I'm not at all worried. There won't be a shortage of suitable GFX cards for our computers.

What worries me is the lack of news regarding the x86 migration (where these PCIe v4 cards make sense)...

Last edited by TRIPOS on 04-Aug-2017 at 02:02 PM.
Last edited by TRIPOS on 04-Aug-2017 at 02:01 PM.

@TRIPOS

Funnily enough, PCIe Gen4 will first appear on POWER9 systems.

@TRIPOS

The latest third party implementation called NOVA is up to 6.4 times faster on some initial benchmarks .

https://keasigmadelta.com/blog/warp3d-novas-performance-boost-partially-hidden-by-lazy-cow/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lxgQVKKeKY

Quote:

And when finally a third party publisher releases some 3D drivers, they were whipped by a 400MHz Efika with it's "AGP 1x" and old-world GFX. And the available S/W we have is the same old-world S/W anyway, so...

Last edited by Spectre660 on 04-Aug-2017 at 02:38 PM.

_________________
Sam460ex : Radeon Rx550 Single slot Video Card : SIL3112 SATA card

@TRIPOS

Quote:

I have had very much fun and use for the perfectly supported R200 and R300 cards in my machines for 1.5 decades.

Yes, lack of good R300 support was what originally kept me from considering OS4.
And AGP graphic card support for older AmigaOnes is pretty dismal to this day.

While MorphOS supports R300, R400, and R500 cards for AGP systems with accelerated drivers.
Of course the Peg2, sharing the legacy AmigaOne's crappy AGP slot design is limited to a universally leyed R300, but at least we have accelerated 3D drivers for those cards.

And worrying about support for high end PCIe cards is a bit silly when you consider that they may be limited by the cpus used in our PPC systems.

My personal vote for a good PCIe card for the X5000 would be the Radeon HD 6570. Accelerated drivers are available for OS4 and Linux (and will soon be available for MorphOS), AND they're fairly low cost.
Radeon 7750 or R7 250?
Pretty much overkill for the systems they are going in.

Not as silly as installing an HD 6870, but still...

@outrun1978

why are you all the time promoting Tabor?

The only sane solution is using a PC and installing UAE

I would say it different... if you like 68k amigas and emulation is not enough amiga to you then buy standalone or Vampire. If your primary interest is to run 4.X software and only additional some 68k software then go for Tabor

@OlafS25

Let outrun promote Tabor. He got expirience with NG Amiga, and can tell people with questions regarding the topic HIS personal point of view.

Ofcourse we can run Wintel and emulation. The same goes for AOS3 or AROS. Why bother? Just sell all our Amiga hardware, and go 100% for Wintel and Libreoffice+modern browsers.

Be consistent when you poke people for being hard on the Vampire, but poke people being positive about NG.
Most of us(!?) realise the disadvantages of using Amiga hardware/software, but thats not really the topic at hand.

And Im a Vampire user for the record. Only AOS4FE via WinUAE.

If someone purchase Amiga hardware and expect to do everything they need without some pains, then they are deluding themselves. We should know that by now.

@OlafS25

I suggest going for an Amiga NG machines because I have owned a few and unlike most of the posters on here who simply enter into the same shitty arguments and post the same negative drivel, I actually own use an OS4 machine so my opinion is probably a little bit more worthwhile than those who have never clapped their eyes on one.

Can i comment on the Vampire in its current form? No because i havent seen it running on an A1200 and neither has anyone else. When I do, I will form my own opinion and more importantly if someone asks for it, I will give my honest assessment. If i think its worthwhile i may even buy one for my A1200.


That being said my opinion is no better or worse than anything elses, but at least i have tried to answer G01dfish's question which is more than what most have tried to do here.

Ultimately Mr. G01dfish has to ask himself what he is planning to use either machine for and make an informed choice based on this. Equally when both machines are out he could try them out for himself.

The shit going on in the background of this thread is quite frankly irrelevant and counterproductive as I am sure any sane person would agree with.

_________________
Amigaone X5000/20 4GB Radeon RX 550 Polaris 12 AmigaOS4.1 Final Edition Update 1
Amiga 1200 Workbench 3.1.4
Amiga CD32