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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
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QuikSanz 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 8-Feb-2018 4:41:07
#41 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2003
Posts: 1089
From: Surf City - Huntington Beach, Ca.

What I can find on Dragonfly for 68K is pretty old.

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agami 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 8-Feb-2018 4:42:07
#42 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 500
From: Melbourne, Australia

@ne_one

Quote:
Surely Hyperion isn't suggesting that value equates to investment?

What would you have them equate it to? Mind you, I don’t agree with their valuation, but I do understand why they’re valuing it that way.

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bison 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 8-Feb-2018 6:01:30
#43 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 993
From: N-Space

@QuikSanz

Quote:
What I can find on Dragonfly for 68K is pretty old.

I don't think it ever ran on 68K. It was forked from FreeBSD in 2003 and ran on x86, but nowadays runs on x86-64 only.

I found this article that mentions "a low-level 68k-to-x64 translation service called 68k2x64."

http://www.trollaxor.com/2012/05/miss-amiga-try-dragonfly.html

I've never heard of it. More important, Google has never heard of it. Googling "68k2x64 site:dragonflybsd.org" doesn't produce any results. Given the domain name of the source, I think we are being trolled.

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OlafS25 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 8-Feb-2018 9:14:11
#44 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5192
From: Unknown

@agami

I read somewhere Ben H. mentioning 2.5 million dollar (including the court case with amigainc). I only thought crazy when I read it and if he still thinks he could get money for it in that magnitude he is even more delusional than most in the community. Whatever he thinks he invested in it the more time goes by the less value is in what he owns

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resle 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 8-Feb-2018 9:51:29
#45 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2005
Posts: 500
From: shanghai

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote:
I always wonder, if you guys want modern os with its all modern features and software why dont you simply take an modern os. Why are you discoussing amiga, os4, heck, aros. All wothwhile amiga features are part of such an os today.


I believe what everyone wants is clear: they want something that looks exactly like Amigaos, has the same paradigms as Amigaos down to the names of system folders, something which is completely compatible with all-things-amiga - but - would support modern stuff and run on modernly-powered hardware.

Which, you know, could have happened if only 15 years ago AmigaOS was ported to x86 rather than PPC, or if amiga devs just turned a new leaf and focused on Aros instead of splitting in camps and blah blah blah the same stuff that has been said over and over and over again.

/resle out

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KimmoK 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 8-Feb-2018 12:06:15
#46 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5089
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@resle

" if only 15 years ago AmigaOS was ported to x86"
I doubt that would have changed much.

But the split was a very bad move.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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KimmoK 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 8-Feb-2018 12:17:20
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5089
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Leo

"Using Linux won't give you access to features like:
- datatypes
- assigns (you can do some limited stuff with links but that's not the same thing)
- AmigaDOS (while I'm not a fan, people like it)
- screens per app, with "public" screen notion, with ability to send any window to any public screen (again, some modern OS have some screen/fullscreen thing but it's different and much more limited)
- MUI-like GUI which is a full OO GUI that you may program using C++
- a light Gfx system (who wants current XWindow mess?)"

Yep.
Just a few minutes ago I noticed how I miss assigns for Windows.
Shortcuts in a "links" folder is not quite the same thing etc.

+I would like to see "immediate" actions, instead of things like waiting "windows swapping untill things like volume setting become visible".
+being able to shut down reliably within seconds (Linux or Windows does not manage to do this)
+sane file naming (Windows still uses 8+3) and folder structures

+ideally my kind of NG AOS should also have executive (etc) kind of aids built in, so that I can easily take full control of CPU time + RAM/SWAP used by tasks, IF I want to.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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StarF 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 8-Feb-2018 12:18:23
#48 ]
New Member
Joined: 5-Dec-2009
Posts: 9
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

Quote:

It does not need to catch up. It's ok to be different.
Good way to narrow the gap would be to kick start legacy free next gen, possibly re-using some things, but if re-use is not worth it, then write from scratch. (later a sandbox can do the legacy support)


It does need more up to date stuff, to be worth while to develop for. Also users want to have a proper modern browser, and other tools, if they are to use the OS.

Last i looked at OS4 it was a mess if loads of stuff forced togerther to give it some new features. I was not impresed.

It would be easier starting from scratch using DragonFLY BSD (like apple used freebsd), and build upon that. I am just talking about DragonFLY as the developer already have some Amiga features in there, also the developer is an old amiga os developer.

any way it will never happen, and continuing down the road with amiaos4 and ppc is only making sure that amiga forever will be nothing but a fun hobby to some, a bit of retro and never really realavant any more.......

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KimmoK 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 8-Feb-2018 13:28:51
#49 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5089
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@StarF

>It does need more up to date stuff, to be worth while to develop for.

Yes it does.
More & simple ways to use modern developer tools as well.

>Also users want to have a proper modern browser, and other tools, if they are to use the OS.

For "normal use", yes.
Current status is that beyond the absolute diehard fans, it's just a playground (it's fine, but it does not produce growth).

>Last i looked at OS4 it was a mess if loads of stuff forced togerther to give it some new features. I was not impresed.

That what happens when trying to drag the legacy compatibility towards the future.

>It would be easier starting from scratch using DragonFLY BSD (like apple used freebsd), and build upon that. I am just talking about DragonFLY as the developer already have some Amiga features in there, also the developer is an old amiga os developer.

It could be an option. Kernel/OS gurus could study the challenges with it.
(for anyone who can not google: https://www.dragonflybsd.org/ )

>any way it will never happen, and continuing down the road with amiaos4 and ppc is only making sure that amiga forever will be nothing but a fun hobby to some, a bit of retro and never really realavant any more.......

Relevant as an option/alternative for modern mainstream system... yes, most likely it never will be.

But it's a small miracle that AmigaOS4 and MorphOS exist as followers of AOS3. IMO, we do not need yet another (AROS is just alternative if AOS4/MorphOS disappears).

If/when MorphOSn+1 delivers 64bit+SMP+MP+etc on x64 + looks and feels familiar to Amigans, it might overtake the community ...
but with 3*split resources + closed source ... also that might not happen in our lifetime/ever.

But hey, we have given good extra income to some lawyers for years.

Last edited by KimmoK on 08-Feb-2018 at 01:49 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 08-Feb-2018 at 01:30 PM.

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- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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bison 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 8-Feb-2018 14:25:42
#50 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 993
From: N-Space

@KimmoK

Quote:
It could be an option. Kernel/OS gurus could study the challenges with it.

The primary challenge is that one would have to be as smart as Matthew Dillion and somehow acquire his decades of experience.

DragonFly is an option only if you accept it as it is and build on top of it. The same with Linux, to a lesser extent. One could make minor changes, but anything beyond that is unrealistic. The only way a modern Amiga-like OS will come into existence is if it leverages the work of others. We do the 1%, and someone else does (or has already done) the 99%.

Building on top of a system like that is possible. Writing an Amiga-like window manager/compositor, for example, or creating a more Amiga-like shell with assign. You could even change the filesystem layout if you wanted to, although that would have some unintended consequences.

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number6 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 8-Feb-2018 14:48:24
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 10089
From: In the village

@agami

Thank you for your explanation.

Quote:
I will try again when I have the kind of money Hyperion will be satisfied with.


^ That indicates interest remians on your part and you're main/only issue was monetary.

2015? I would say enough has transpired since 2015 to warrant a revisit (on your part) of this pricing issue.

*shrug*

#6


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This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

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StarF 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 8-Feb-2018 14:50:37
#52 ]
New Member
Joined: 5-Dec-2009
Posts: 9
From: Unknown

@bison

it should be possible to write a more Amiga Like gui for DragonFly BSD as far i know.

TBH take Dragonfly BSD and add some more amiga features, and a nice gui, and i would be happy. Screens, datatypes, screens.... and so on...

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bison 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 8-Feb-2018 15:12:17
#53 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 993
From: N-Space

@StarF

Quote:
it should be possible to write a more Amiga Like gui for DragonFly BSD as far i know.

I know this to be true because I'm writing one. I'm about half way done. At least I hope I'm half way done -- I won't know for sure until I'm actually done. I'm writing it on Linux, but I will be sure that it works on DragonFly as well, since there seems to be some interest in that.

Learning Xlib (which is a precursor to learning XCB) has been slow business. There's not much documentation beyond the man pages, so I'm having to read a lot of source code. I'm not even thinking about Wayland yet, although I have played around with the API a bit.

Screens cannot be implemented as they were on the original Amiga because there are no modern GPUs that support multiple simultaneous resolutions, at least as far as I know. There's no need for this anymore, since there is no longer a need to trade resolution for color depth -- we can have it all nowadays, 16-million colors at maximum resolution.

But the mechanism of screens can be simulated. Amiwm does this with workspaces. I'm doing it by constraining the titlebars of maximized windows to the screen so that any maximized window can emulate a dragable screen. It's not the same thing, but it's fun to drag the windows around. Windowlab does something similar.

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StarF 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 8-Feb-2018 15:22:25
#54 ]
New Member
Joined: 5-Dec-2009
Posts: 9
From: Unknown

@bison

Quote:
I know this to be true because I'm writing one. I'm about half way done. At least I hope I'm half way done -- I won't know for sure until I'm actually done. I'm writing it on Linux, but I will be sure that it works on DragonFly as well, since there seems to be some interest in that.

.


Interesting, i hope you one day get to show us what you done!... impresive...

Quote:
I

Screens cannot be implemented as they were on the original Amiga because there are no modern GPUs that support multiple simultaneous resolutions, at least as far as I know. There's no need for this anymore, since there is no longer a need to trade resolution for color depth -- we can have it all nowadays, 16-million colors at maximum resolution.

But the mechanism of screens can be simulated. Amiwm does this with workspaces. I'm doing it by constraining the titlebars of maximized windows to the screen so that any maximized window can emulate a dragable screen. It's not the same thing, but it's fun to drag the windows around. Windowlab does something similar.


I know, i was thinking something like dynamic workscreens and so on. Where an app can spawn one.

Also somekind of scripting like rexx to allow for cross app scripts would be awesome...

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bison 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 8-Feb-2018 15:31:09
#55 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 993
From: N-Space

@StarF

Quote:
I know, i was thinking something like dynamic workscreens and so on. Where an app can spawn one.

Also somekind of scripting like rexx to allow for cross app scripts would be awesome...

Both of these things are out of scope for what I'm working on. They would have to be implemented by applications, and someone would have to write a toolkit to support them first.

As far as scripting languages embedded in applications, I believe Lua of often used for that, but I don't follow such things closely.

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StarF 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 8-Feb-2018 15:40:18
#56 ]
New Member
Joined: 5-Dec-2009
Posts: 9
From: Unknown

@bison

understandable, i was just wishing for what my dream of a dragonfly / amiga os combined thing would need.

The OS would need a proper API for applications, to allow proper integrating scripting between apps.. again just dreaming :)

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wawa 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 8-Feb-2018 20:00:01
#57 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5913
From: Unknown

@StarF

why oh why are we always discussing peoples dreams and phantasies, arent they better kept private? why do we need them to be voiced aloud?

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Fransexy 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 8-Feb-2018 20:39:02
#58 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Jun-2004
Posts: 2322
From: Elche (Alicante), spain

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote:
@StarF

why oh why are we always discussing peoples dreams and phantasies, arent they better kept private? why do we need them to be voiced aloud?


Because is a public discussion forum

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Make Amiga Great Again

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A1200 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 8-Feb-2018 20:51:25
#59 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-May-2003
Posts: 2924
From: Westhall, UK

@Slash

Quote:
ridiculous notion that you need to spend £2,000 on a niche PPC machine to run what is essentially a hobby OS.


Some hobbies cost a lot more than a couple of grand. If you are into horse riding you can spend many thousands on a horse. The most expensive ham radio transceiver I ever purchased was £9000!

_________________
Amiga A1200, 3.1 ROMs, Blizzard 1220/4 with FPU, 4GB KingSpec DoM SSD, Workbench 3.1

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simplex 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 8-Feb-2018 22:24:23
#60 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 663
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@Leo

Quote:
Because people want a modern AmigaOS, and not Linux, Bsd, whatever?

Using Linux won't give you access to features like:...

+1x10^6

I've been using Linux for about 15 years. It's gotten a lot better: pre-emptive multitasking, driver support, plug-n-play, 64-bit computing, etc.

But the UI is still not as convenient as AmigaOS' UI was, for pretty much every one of the first few examples you list there.

There are two places your list is wrong, though:

Quote:
- MUI-like GUI which is a full OO GUI that you may program using C++

I believe that both Gnome and KDE are more object-oriented than Intuition ever was. Gnome is hacked in C the same was BOOPSI is; KDE is well-designed C++ built on top of QT.

Quote:
- a light Gfx system (who wants current XWindow mess?)

The Linux distributions are moving to replace X by Wayland. I don't know what all the differences are, but apparently part of it is the "light" business.

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