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   /  Amiga OS4 Hardware
      /  Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
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PosterThread
arthoropod 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 22-May-2018 17:51:53
#61 ]
Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2018
Posts: 63
From: Gotham

@Hypex

GOOD point, Power 9 is not emulating a PPC, its code compatible with big endian PowerPCs running in a session under the hypervisor.
It would just be the other SAM460 hardware that would be emulated.

Giving Power 9 a big advantage over X64's reliance on qemu.

We've seen how long it took to get decent 68K performance on X86, how much of a drag will qemu be emulating Power?

Right now, the best platforms for SAM460 emulation would be the Talos II and the PowerMac 11,2, both capable of running PPC code natively.

And as I've pointed out, no X64 single cpu platform is capable of matching Power 9's maximum of 88 concurrent threads.

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retro 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 22-May-2018 22:51:57
#62 ]
Super Member
Joined: 16-Dec-2003
Posts: 1027
From: Unknown

@arthoropod

So insted of being angry about not having power9 .could wee lock at an Another angle here.is it posible to make am xzorro accraletor board or an pci-e connected solution.. it or is it a bottelnick with power 9 on a pci-e board

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OneTimer1 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 22-May-2018 23:31:11
#63 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 458
From: Unknown

@arthoropod

Quote:

arthoropod wrote:
@OneTimer1

If the Talos II can emulate a SAM460 ....


So buy it and don't ask for a port.

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Rob 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 22-May-2018 23:44:10
#64 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5794
From: S.Wales

@retro

Such cards would have various drawbacks and if put a single board computer on Xorro it will be able to share very little resources with the host computer. If you have the resources to build such a board it's better to use them to make an ATX board more suited to Amiga OS than the Talos II.

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arthoropod 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 22-May-2018 23:52:06
#65 ]
Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2018
Posts: 63
From: Gotham

@retro

Sure, I don't see why a PCI-E card couldn't be built, you might even be able to install that in an X64 and use it to bridge from one ISA to another.

@Rob

Quote:
If you have the resources to build such a board it's better to use them to make an ATX board more suited to Amiga OS than the Talos II.


BUT...that's probably the better course, if there are 24 PCI-E lanes available to one Power 9 cpu, an X16, X4, X4, or and X16, X4, 2 to 3 X1, anda PCI slot or two, or forego the x16 (since its gen 4 anyway) and go for a dual X8, X4, and whatever of combinations of X1 PCI-E and PCI slots you want to use the last four PCI-E lanes for.

Look the PPCs from Freescale are guaranteed to be available for at least ten years after introduction by NXP, and some may be available longer through their long term support projects.

So there is some time to work on this.
Looking at the expansion limitations of the Talos II Lite, I'd probably regret not buying the full two cpu board.
Might pay to wait for an ATX revision.

Last edited by arthoropod on 23-May-2018 at 12:18 AM.

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 23-May-2018 14:37:33
#66 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3403
From: Unknown

@thread

Poll: what you want to buy...

"With the staggered launch of the #TalosII Lite basic chassis bundle and the mainboard only, we wanted to ask: which one are you looking to purchase?"


https://twitter.com/raptoreng


Someone proposed this chassis: https://www.bitfenix.com/global/en/products/chassis/prodigy#gallery

Model portal pandora and prodigy are so cool chassis!

Last edited by AmigaBlitter on 23-May-2018 at 02:49 PM.
Last edited by AmigaBlitter on 23-May-2018 at 02:39 PM.

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WolfpackN64 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 23-May-2018 14:47:14
#67 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 9-Oct-2016
Posts: 299
From: Unknown

@AmigaBlitter

I think they should stay with a Supermicro chassis. I thought I read on their Twitter that if the Talos II Lite is sucessful, they might consider an even cheaper ATX version.

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 23-May-2018 14:50:14
#68 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3403
From: Unknown

@WolfpackN64

They're asking to choose with or withous chassis...

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 23-May-2018 14:58:21
#69 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3403
From: Unknown

@thread

i see again an opportunity flying away again...

I remember the port OS4 on PS3 thread...

i found an old discussion on the PlayStation forum too (http://community.eu.playstation.com/t5/PS3/Amiga-PS3/m-p/68313)

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Hypex 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 23-May-2018 17:25:23
#70 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9518
From: Greensborough, Australia

@arthoropod

Then this hypervisor opens up possibilities. Perhaps possibilities we've only dream of before. Of realistically running OS4 on top of powerful hardware at near native speeds. If not code native speed. Next to porting to ARM or doing the next best thing which would be to compile basic kernel code to ARM and provide an optimising PPC emulator. Taking ARM As an example since Hyperion don't have a license to port to x86. LOL.

But would this be using QEMU? That is a PPC optimised version with a VM or some other VM? It would be funny if we only lacked software and OS4 could also blaze on a Mac G5.

Apart from this could it be also used to run OSX 10.5 64-bit? Yes it's old now and Linux would be a better OS. And in my experience always better when it comes to drivers. I hacked an Ubuntu 9.04 PPC CD to install on my A1 many moons ago. Plug in my NetGear USB WiFi adapter. Works off the bat. OSX? Fiddle around looking for drivers that crash on the G3 I had. OSX lost that race.

I've always wondered why it was hard or slow for X86 to emulate PPC. Well until it went 64-bit it didn't have much of a register count. And X86 got native big endian support around this time for memory R/W. I think this register count may burden it as, in my mind, one CPU emulating another should have matching or double the register count. I don't think an emulator should use local variables in memory for emulated registers. I think they should use real registers to do a proper job. After all the emulated CPU should be bit inferior or you are working uphill. Now 68K is a CISC and similar to X86 in that respect, except it doesn't have that legacy segmented crap. But PPC, by comparison, is simple. Like ARM and an Amiga copper list, each instruction is 16-bit code with 16-bit data. OK same width as 68K base opcode but only two words to think about. Doing a lookup table should be a cinch.


You point out an amazing fact there, a Power CPU that can match the likes of X86 again.

Maybe not the cost or power bill but whose asking?

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Signal 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 23-May-2018 17:55:24
#71 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 657
From: USA

@retro

Quote:

retro wrote:
So insted of being angry about not having power9 .could wee lock at an Another angle here.is it posible to make am xzorro accraletor board or an pci-e connected solution.. it or is it a bottelnick with power 9 on a pci-e board


You can not think of POWER9 in the same way as a ppc that is being used on the AmigaOne boards today. Do yourself a favor and investigate the POWER 8 and 9 CPUs more. They are a different animal and need a little different thinking.

Watch This Presentation

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arthoropod 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 23-May-2018 19:34:12
#72 ]
Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2018
Posts: 63
From: Gotham

@Hypex

Quote:
But would this be using QEMU


No, that's the cool part ,Power 9 can run big endian PPC code natively in one session, little endian Power code in another session, and if you want to use qemu to emulate other ISAs you've got lots of available threads to support it.

The only thing I could see that might require emulation is a running OSX10.4, since emulating a PowerMac G5's hardware would be useful. Not the processor of course, the supporting hardware.

@Signal

Quote:
You can not think of POWER9 in the same way as a ppc that is being used on the AmigaOne boards today


I don't think they get it either, IBM's last desktop oriented PPCs were Power 4 based,.
Power 9 has evolved far enough to remain competitive.

Last edited by arthoropod on 23-May-2018 at 07:42 PM.
Last edited by arthoropod on 23-May-2018 at 07:42 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 24-May-2018 17:44:09
#73 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9518
From: Greensborough, Australia

@arthoropod

Quote:
No, that's the cool part ,Power 9 can run big endian PPC code natively in one session, little endian Power code in another session, and if you want to use qemu to emulate other ISAs you've got lots of available threads to support it.


That's pretty good that it can run PPC code at all. Given that these embedded PowerPC chips we have tend to have slight incompatibilities with each other. But how good is a hypervisor at running supervisor code and interrupts?

I wouldn't have thought running little endian code would be that hard given that endian majors around memory read/write and PPC had instructions to do that sort of thing. Inside the CPU they are pretty much equal and could be thought of as agnostic. And regarding memory, a LE CPU reading a word in and writing it out, will end up with the same exact result as a BE CPU reading a word in and writing it out.

Quote:
The only thing I could see that might require emulation is a running OSX10.4, since emulating a PowerMac G5's hardware would be useful. Not the processor of course, the supporting hardware.


So a bit more deeper than MOL? Did 10.4 run on 64-bit? I didn't know it had useful supporting hardware.

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Signal 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 24-May-2018 19:56:01
#74 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 657
From: USA

@

Looks like Fedora is into both Big/little endian for POWER.

CLICK!

Debian also.

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arthoropod 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 24-May-2018 20:30:38
#75 ]
Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2018
Posts: 63
From: Gotham

@Hypex

The G5 systems were 64 bit supporting up to 8 to 16 GBs of memory, so my guess would be that the last revision of OSX that supported the PPC cpu supported 64 bit operations.

I'm not sure of what all a Power 9 system's hypervisor is capable of, but I did verify it can run concurrent big endian and little endian sessions.

I have no idea what the limitations are to cross session interaction, but some of the bravest of us are already committed to buying an TalosII system.

Keeping in mind that the leaders are the ones with arrows in their backs, I'm holding off a bit, and want to see some further development on 64bit big endian PPC systems like the PowerMac 11,2 G5, the X5000/20 and X5000/40, and the thus unnamed T2080 laptop.

But it is only a matter of time until there are no more big endian Power cpus.
The final word on that, from NXP, no further development of the Power based cores.

Last edited by arthoropod on 24-May-2018 at 11:43 PM.
Last edited by arthoropod on 24-May-2018 at 09:35 PM.
Last edited by arthoropod on 24-May-2018 at 09:34 PM.
Last edited by arthoropod on 24-May-2018 at 08:32 PM.

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fishy_fis 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 25-May-2018 5:14:36
#76 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1833
From: Australia

@arthoropod

Quote:
And as I've pointed out, no X64 single cpu platform is capable of matching Power 9's maximum of 88 concurrent threads


Not true. Even Knights Landing from 2013 has upwards of 60 dual threaded cores.

And that was 5 years ago.
Plenty of advancement since.

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fishy_fis 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 25-May-2018 5:20:57
#77 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1833
From: Australia

@Signal

You're following up on my post asking questions based on things I never said.
Perhaps read what I actually wrote before responding?

I said nothing about the quality of the board.
I simply suggested you cant have too much raw grunt on the desktop, and that it's unlikely to ever be a platform for OS4, even if it is a good candidate.

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Signal 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 25-May-2018 19:28:17
#78 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 657
From: USA

@fishy_fis

Quote:

fishy_fis wrote:
@Signal

You're following up on my post asking questions based on things I never said.
Perhaps read what I actually wrote before responding?

I said nothing about the quality of the board.
I simply suggested you cant have too much raw grunt on the desktop, and that it's unlikely to ever be a platform for OS4, even if it is a good candidate.


I did not ask about board quality.
I never asked, or replyed to you, anything about OS4 on this platform.

Your posting to me does raise another question;
Did you go to the Nancy Pelosi school of thinking?

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 8-Jun-2018 21:26:34
#79 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3403
From: Unknown

https://raptorcs.com/TALOSIILITE/

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K-L 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 8-Jun-2018 21:42:08
#80 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2006
Posts: 1295
From: Oullins, France

@AmigaBlitter

Nice !

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