In this special AmigaWorld.net Poll, you are kindly asked to cast your voice and address the elephant in the china shop - is it time to pool the resources and join forces?

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@Petah

I'm trying to start the year by being more optimistic, and I want to be honest as well, so... I didn't vote. I'd like to say 'yes', but I think we're already well into the sixth verse of American Pie.

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@bison

I just say Pi ;)

That time was 10 years ago, but it's still not a complete lost cause.

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Quote:

Is it time to pool resources and join forces?

This question has been asked a hundred times already. What's the point of asking again and getting the same answer?

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@Petah

No.

It is competition and different thinking that drives innovation and progress. Not 'Lets all do the same thing with different labels'.

Sharing hardware is good. Sharing skills is good. Sharing philosophy ....... not so good.

Yet another same answer

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@Petah

I ended up voting yes. But I am also in two minds about it. I agree we should pool resources. But I don't think anyone will join forces.

The Amiga community, or Amiga computer rather, is split up. There is the original and that stood on it's own for a long time. Then the AmigaOne and OS4 eventually came along. Amithlon was brought out. MorphOS and the Pegasos. AROS on a PC. And now the Vampire wants to give new life to the original.

We can argue as to who is official. But the fact remains OS4 was built off the OS3 sources. MorphOS is a clone on PPC. And AROS is a clone on x86. Amithlon was a fast AmigaOS3 emulator with native hooks. The Vampire needs a new 68K OS3 but doesn't have a native one. No matter the work put into these their methods will always differ.

It's getting to the point that any officially source based code is too old and redundant. And really, it is, most OS4 code should be replaced that isn't already. So that official label is wearing thin. But it will always seperate it from the rest, no matter how bad it is. For this reason I don't see any forces joining. As it stands they still all compete in one way or another, even if that may drag us down at times. The user has the choice.

Last edited by Hypex on 18-Jan-2019 at 03:29 PM.

@Petah

no pancakes no vote besides it's a rhetorical question

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@Hypex

I can only say it has been successful when we have joined forces, in the past, like Directory Opus 4 / and Directory Opus 5, work on all systems, MUI5 also works on MorphOS and AmigaOS at least. OWB / odyssey its also example of cooperation.

So it is possible, the thing that stops cooperation is ego and free will, you can't force people to cooperate, and EGO, some reinventing the wheel instead of helping out on an existing project.

For example how many file manager exists on Amiga, won't it be better if to have one good file manager instead many that stinks?

Toolbars is another example, lots of toolbars insted of using one that already works, we keep making new ones that don't, for example XDOCK vs AMIDOCK vs Push4Dock, and so on. There is also AmigaStart, Excalibur and lots of other as well.

Same thing with picture viewers, lots and lots of bad ones insted of working on one really good one.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 18-Jan-2019 at 05:36 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 18-Jan-2019 at 05:33 PM.

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@Petah

I voted yes, and I agree with Hypex. In my opinion joining the forces is the only way to achieve something. Unless someone with big money decides to resolve al the legal mess and pay developers. In that case AROS may survive for some time. MorphOS will not (except if the tycoon will decide to use it as the base for future AmigaOS). But this is all so obvious, why am I typing this?

I don't think competition, in the sense of having different "camps" helps at all here. But then who am I to say.. The successful Steve Jobs was quite fond of competition n his younger years, I bet he would have put one Frieden against the other to see who produced the better Exec.. He said he thought competition was key. In his later years he changed his mind.. I guess we are all still too young to comprehend what he meant.

@Petah

That cannot be done as long as some insist to hide their sources while some insist it should be open. You cannot really join forces in such setting. Even if we could agree on doing it either way, there would be the problem that people just have different ideas on the direction. It is fragmented and will probably continue to be.

One way forward is to open source the core parts of AmigaOS and MorphOS, and then either start a common project to bring it forward or just let it all be assimilated into AROS. That could mean that all flavours of today step down to become some kind of distribution of a common core. The core would be based on either, or more likely all of the current alternatives to some degree. The more we focus on one of them rather than all, the more likely it will be that there can be some kind of working result coming out of it.

I put my small hope in AROS here, mainly because it is open source already and seems to be most flexible on different hardware platforms. It may be used with 68k Amiga and it has the Raspberry Pi as a coming target. Given that we live in the past and cannot hope to compete with mainstream computing, I think 68k and some kind of light weight stable and inexpensive hardware platform is the best bet. Perhaps the existing PPC machines can serve as the high end for now.

@Petah

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...is it time to pool the resources and join forces?

Interesting question.

I had Bill Buck on the phone last week and he seemed to think there was still a chance "if everybody was on the same page".

But then, he's had his fill of this market and Genesi has moved on to support IOT devices.

And while the MorphOS developers have a good relationship with Aeon, I doubt they'd ever work with Ben Hermans.

So we have three "camps", and limited cooperation.

Although all three OS' use the same browser and have some compatibility with MUI.

Ideally, we'd merge everything, have the right to call it an Amiga (not an AmigaOne), and have something distinct to run it on (beating the same drum again, I'd like Power 9).

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JimIgou wrote: I had Bill Buck on the phone last week and he seemed to think there was still a chance "if everybody was on the same page". But then, he's had his fill of this market and Genesi has moved on to support IOT devices.

IoT and embedded is where the 68k Amiga should be shrinking its already tiny footprint. This market is on fire and the Amiga once again sits on the side lines as technology opportunities pass by.

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And while the MorphOS developers have a good relationship with Aeon, I doubt they'd ever work with Ben Hermans. So we have three "camps", and limited cooperation.

Either Ben Hermans or Hyperion itself is probably gone soon anyway. I see a rigid old tree which won't ride out the coming storm.

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Although all three OS' use the same browser and have some compatibility with MUI.

1) AmigaOS 68k (Reaction)
2) AmigaOS PPC (Reaction)
3) MorphOS (MUI)
4) AROS (MUI)

Which AmigaOS like OSs are you combining to get three?

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Ideally, we'd merge everything, have the right to call it an Amiga (not an AmigaOne), and have something distinct to run it on (beating the same drum again, I'd like Power 9).

I like the idea of a few standard platforms which are binary compatible but Power 9 by itself is a path to fewer Amiga owners as the price climbs. Even with SMP support in AmigaOS (which I'm skeptical if it can be added without breaking Amiga PPC compatibility), I'm afraid the price of entry would be too high to meaningfully expand the user base in this age of cheap electronic computers and devices. The Amiga needs affordable entry level hardware.

All it takes for "joining forces" is for all users to jump on one of the alternatives, and stick with it. Obviously this is not going to happen.

@matthey
Amiga has nothing to offer embedded and IoT, there's barely any "I" on Amiga even.

Last edited by kolla on 19-Jan-2019 at 08:44 AM.

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@matthey

Reaction standard on 68k?

Except 3.5 and 3.9 of course but there were only few Reaction based programs

@kolla

Yeah, nobody is going to put Humpty Dumpty together. People can't even agree on which direction the "progress" and "development" of their choice of Amiga-flavor should take.
If anything I expect further fracturing especially on the 68k front, as new incompatible hardware and OS versions are introduced

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kolla wrote: All it takes for "joining forces" is for all users to jump on one of the alternatives, and stick with it. Obviously this is not going to happen.

Even if all camps joined forces, there would likely not be enough users anymore to attract attention and especially developer support (although a unified Amiga would make developer support easier). Maybe ex-Amiga users would come back but again very affordable hardware is needed. We need a product which is attractive outside the Amiga community.

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@matthey Amiga has nothing to offer embedded and IoT, there's barely any "I" on Amiga even.

A tiny footprint *is* attractive for embedded. The 68k has a smaller footprint and better single core performance than Thumb2 (better single core performance allows cheaper lower clocked embedded hardware designs as well as better game and single threaded performance). AArch64 fattened up (bigger footprint) to boost single core performance. The AmigaOS has possibilities too if SMP, memory protection and security can be added without breaking too much compatibility (probably requires hardware support). Microkernels like L4 and QNX are quite popular in embedded with L4 alone in over 1.5 billion devices.

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OlafS25 wrote: Reaction standard on 68k? Except 3.5 and 3.9 of course but there were only few Reaction based programs

Reaction is the most advanced standard GUI which AmigaOS 68k has received. AmigaOS 3.1.4 dropped back to GadTools but it is primitive and, I hope, a stop gap measure. It is embarrassing not to have a scalable and font sensitive GUI. MUI and Reaction should be evaluated for supporting modern device gadget alternatives, supporting low resolutions, performance and footprint. Of course it would be nice to support both MUI and Reaction on larger Amiga installations for best compatibility.

Last edited by matthey on 19-Jan-2019 at 05:17 PM.

@Petah

The OS developers went their separate ways years ago. I don't think they have any interest in joining forces.

Some software developers have tried to make their applications usable on more than one OS.

IMHO ... we users, or wanna-be users, have many good choices available, including MorphOS, AmigaOS 4.1, various versions of AROS, various emulator packages, Classic Amiga systems.

I still have my A2000HD but its been powered off for a few years.

Years ago, I installed QNX 6.x on our HP Pavillion system.

Then, I went the AmigaOS 4.x route, bought a MicroA1 with a Pre-release version on AmigaOS 4.0. Upgraded the OS when new updates became available. I still use this system, with OS 4.1 FE. Can't justify the cost of an AmigaOne X5000.

I have also tried several versions of AROS on my old HP laptop. I like what I see. I would like to try MorpOS but don't have compatible hardware.

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Last edited by redfox on 19-Jan-2019 at 06:03 PM.
Last edited by redfox on 19-Jan-2019 at 06:00 PM.

@matthey

AmigaOS 3.1.4 was designed as a kind of bug-fix for 3.1. Reaction was introduced with 3.5 and 3.9. I cannot judge if it really was and is better than MUI but at least if you look at 68k software on aminet there are only few programs requiring Reaction so I cannot see it as "standard" on 68k.

Bad poll, no option for 'Why should we join forces?

Let OS4 and AROS et al go their own separate ways, and leave us real Amiga users alone. Then we can pool our resources without compromise.

The real elephant in the room? The Amiga is now a 'retro' computer, just like the C64, ZX Spectrum etc. Those of us who still think real Amigas are awesome want to preserve and use them in their original form, taking advantage of modern innovations where appropriate (CF cards, FPGAs etc.) but not morphing them into PC clones. Others are consumed with PC envy or a libertarian fear of closed source software, and don't care if they destroy the Amiga's essence to achieve their goals.

Asking the different factions to forces to join forces is like asking vintage car enthusiasts to 'join forces' with kit car builders and hot-rodders - on the basis that they might share similar body shapes. Their desires and needs are so different that there is little worth sharing.

It's taken over 20 years to make an open source replacement for AmigaOS that's about 75% complete - a total waste of time when we already have a 100% one in our real Amigas. OS4 is geared towards hardware so different from real Amigas that trying to marry the two is hopeless. Another disturbing trend is bloatware being shoveled over from other platforms with little attempt to improve it, and users being accused of 'refusing to upgrade' when they don't want to compromise their existing setups to run it.

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agami said: That time was 10 years ago, but it's still not a complete lost cause.

The rift actually occurred soon after Commodore's demise - more than 20 years ago - and even at that time it was obvious how it would go. Most of us did the sensible thing and let our Amigas retire gracefully as we moved on to PCs. A few zealots tried to save the village by destroying it - which is why we now have OS4 on PPC. Now the original Amiga is roaring back as a retro computing platform, putting the fun back. And finally, some really dedicated people are producing amazing stuff for classic Amigas - only to get brickbats from the other factions (Not open source! Can't be a real Amiga if it has an FPGA in it!).

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Amigo1 said: In my opinion joining the forces is the only way to achieve something.

That only makes sense if they all want to achieve the same 'something'. In reality the goals are incompatible. 'Next-gen' owners want to compete with PCs, open source OS advocates are attempting to turn PCs into Amigas, and retro computing enthusiasts are trying to relive their youth and preserve the legacy. Incompatible goals, and incompatible means of achieving them.

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Amigo1 said: It is embarrassing not to have a scalable and font sensitive GUI. MUI and Reaction should be evaluated for supporting modern device gadget alternatives, supporting low resolutions, performance and footprint.

I am all for lower footprints etc. but what's really embarrassing is thinking that a scalable and font sensitive GUI is so essential. Apart from a few applications such as word processors and web browsers I don't think the overheads are worth it, and even those apps probably shouldn't be relying on the OS to do the job.

I love Topaz8. It works fine in all the 'normal' screen resolutions that I use. I hard code it into all my own projects, so I don't have to worry about my GUI elements being 'sensitive' to different fonts. I am not a fan of GUI creation systems like MUI and Gadtools either, preferring to make my own using standard Intuition functions. The one attempt I had at compiling a MUI app put me off - just trying to find classes that didn't didn't crash was a nightmare.