@phoenixkonsole Quote:

phoenixkonsole wrote: @cdimauro sorry.. as I said you are talking about something different.. I have meant the Bundestagswahlen where we elect the dominating party ... which happened in 2017. You are talking about a party internal voting which only elects the leader of a soccer club. Merkel should not be there.. because the people don''t wanted her. 2017.. not 2018..

Now it's clear that you don't even open the links. From the title of the first link which I've reported:

"Germania, voto in Assia: batosta Cdu, volano i Verdi al 20% e la destra al 13%"

(Google-)Translated in English:

"Germany, vote in Hesse: CDU blows, the Greens fly at 20% and the right at 13%"

So, it's clear that it was NOT the internal party voting, but it was about the last elections in Hessen.
Quote:

So now go back.. read daily german news from 2000 and you have the same level of information and influence on your believing.. than it makes sense to talk about this topic. Else you have your bubble of knowledge and I have mine..

See above: at least I read something, whereas it's crystal clear that you do NOT.
Quote:

Which lead to 2 pages of talk about a "topic" but we both still talk about different thinks. Again.. voting where way way back and the result was ignored... People don't voted for Merkel..

You continue to completely ignore how democracy works. Do you know why it's called Representative Democracy?

Even Wikipedia tells you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy

"Representative democracy (also indirect democracy, representative government or psephocracy) is a type of democracy founded on the principle of elected officials representing a group of people, as opposed to direct democracy.[2] Nearly all modern Western-style democracies are types of representative democracies"

Or... are you a fan of the "Direct Democracy" (like the populists of the 5 Stars Movement / M5S in Italy)? Which is something very difficult achievable.
Quote:

Instead everyone whites for any of the other options leading to a point where no one was able to speak / work with the other fraction... FDP even declared that they don't want to join the same shit again of CDU / SPD lies..

See above this is how representative democracy works. If you don't like, you're free to change it with a better model. IF you have it, of course.
Quote:

The AFD is not the problem.. it is the symptom. Problem are the failiures made (which can happen..) and more importantly the ignorance and denying of problems. Thats the problem.. They cause problems, they cause poverty and they don't plan.. they can only react like dog when you throw a ball. Immigrant are no problem.. don't get me wrong. I am as I said result of immigrants.. This is not the topic. Topic is only whe need different people. and AFD is like cancer because they didn't take care for the body.. or too late. Good wake up kick in the balls.

You continue with your populism filled up of just feelings, without giving a concrete example of what is wrong (and not even talking about solutions).

And you continue this way even after I and Zylesea asked it. Which means that, again, you have NOTHING to report: not even ONE, single, simple fact supporting your fantasies.

Your are the slogans used by populists: people which do know NOTHING about the how system works, its history, its status, but sometime wake-up in the morning and start blatantly yelling against... only they know what.

But yes, I agree that AFD is THE cancer. And that's why I don't support them, and I fight against them.

I don't want that happens again something like that: http://wiki.ghv-villingen.de/?p=4849
Villingen - Stalag V B
Is the place were my grandfather was prisoner of war for 28 months. He escaped only because alliances were continuously bombing Germany at the end of the war, and reached Sicily (south Italy) by WALKING. When he reached his small town he was only 40Kg, and was about to die. I avoid to report what he told me about what he passed during this period, but you can imagine.

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER: THIS SHOULD NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN!!!

@recedent Quote:

recedent wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Actually USA are the primary responsible of the Ukraine crisis, with their continuously ongoing expansionism plan. This time they were too close to Russia, which reacted. I don't believe what I'm reading... You're kind of justifying Russian armed aggression and partial occupation of a sovereign state just because they didn't like the way Ukrainian politics shifted?

No.
Quote:

Have you ever been to Ukraine?

No.
Quote:

I was and I'm not surprised that people there would like to belong to EU rather than RF. They have eyes, you know. And what do you mean by "too close to Russia"? Sharing borders?

Do you remember what happened to Cuba and USA? More or less the same stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion
Quote:

You know, there are quite a few EU countries sharing borders with Russia. Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland... Should they be afraid?

Why not? The were even part of USSR.
Quote:

Can they make their own political decisions without asking Russia for their opinion on matter?

Yes.

And now, to be more clear: I do NOT justify Russia neither USA for their squalid foreign politics.

BTW, I'm a US citizen.

@Rob
@OneTimer1

Most of the French people dont bother about this copyright law because they have more crucial problems like how to finish the month with a job that give not enough money.

The yellow vest protests is what would happened in USA if Trump was not not been elected: The poor workers that are left on the side in small cities where the factories have closed, the trains station too , that got no more public services like a post office nor shops in the downtown (=lost jobs) but only globalized hypermarket
Certainly the yellow vest protests would have more support from non poor peoples if it didnt turned in such a butchery:

January 2019 : "144 serious wounds among yellow vests and journalists, including 92 by defensive bullet throwing shots. At least 14 victims lost an eye." "12 people died"


The French people that knows about this copyright law (including me) are more favorable: There are still some reference newspapers/journalists in France and people dont want them to be looted by Google & co
All the newspapers here have defended this copyright law: from The Monde to La Croix (catholic) to Charlie Hebdo (leftish)

Quote:

will not save the French culture it will make it less visible.

If newspaper are looted to bankrucity it will not help them to be visible once dead

There is in France a more active politic to defend cultural stuffs like French cinema: for example there a lots of facilities to make (french or foreign) movies to be shot in Paris ( I have heard that New York make difficulties to let foreign films been shots in this city) So Paris is much more frequent and visible in films than other capitals.

Alain Thellier - Paris - France

@outrun1978

Quote:

few people have actually changed their minds on this issue and are unlikely to ever do so, so you can run a referendum, call a general election and the reality is that we are still going to end up with the same result.

One thing I've learned from this whole debacle is that there should never have been a referendum in the first place.

The problem is that the decision whether to exit or remain in the EU involves complex issues spanning a huge range of topics and professional disciplines. In order for an individual to make an informed decision on such a question he would not only need to be knowledgeable across all topics and disciplines but, crucially, he would have to be plugged in to all the relevant information so that this could be put into the mixing pot, weighed-up and an informed decision taken.

The reality is that most ordinary members of the public are neither qualified to take such a decision, nor are they informed. Even if they wanted to become informed, and were willing to invest the significant amount of time to do so, they are not sufficiently connected to what's going on behind the scenes to access all of the required information.

So it's a stupid question to ask of the public. That's why we have Governments - they are supposed to be connected to the information, they are supposed to be represented by experts in all the required fields, and therefore they are in the best position to distil all the information and take an informed decision.

Of course, this becomes a problem when we have an incompetent Government and member politicians who are self-serving and therefore biased toward their own ends . But such a problem is not helped by putting the decision onto an ill-informed and unqualified general public.

@BrianHoskins

Quote:

In order for an individual to make an informed decision on such a question he would not only need to be knowledgeable across all topics and disciplines but, crucially, he would have to be plugged in to all the relevant information so that this could be put into the mixing pot, weighed-up and an informed decision taken.

What you have failed to grasp is the medium and long term economic outcomes (and even the short term with much accuracy) CANNOT be gauged by the so called 'experts'!

1) This decision SHOULD be made on the basis of whether the direction the EU is going in the next 50 years will favour the UK or not.

2) Also, the question should be asked; is it better to live in a restrictive undemocratic Federalist Super-State where only around 34% of our populace actually cares to vote for the proportional representation mess of a MEP selection vote every 5 years!

...Or as I would argue, is it better to be in control of your own destiny, to be prosperous or destitute dependent on our own efforts, entrepreneurial spirit and tenacity rather than safe socialist / federalist hand outs (our own money given back to us in part and dictated for specific projects by EU quangos), mutual protectionism and back slapping amongst irrelevant and back-facing European federalists.

3) We are the UK! We don't need bureaucratic red tape, directives and restrictions to stop us turning rogue and declaring war on other nations. The very idea of the EU's creation to make it impossible to declare war on each other is insulting and ridiculous. If Germany had turned the screw any more on Greece in regards to their national debt, austerity and the Greek national debt repayments there would have been civil unrest and civil war whether the EU attempts to make it impossible or not.

4) The Federal European Super State is a dangerous experiment gone wrong. It restricts our freedom, is in no way representative of a bottom up parliamentary democracy like our own (whatever John Bercow thinks ) and with its ridiculous quango in the European Commission telling the European Parliament what laws to vote on is one step away from the Imperial Senate of the Star Wars Prequels.

5) We are a free democratic country that respects international law, is a safe haven for true refugees not economic migrants (such as persecuted Christians fleeing brutal Islamic regimes) and has a legal structure and political system that is the model for the world.

6) All we need to do to succeed post-Brexit IMHO is to cling / return to our Christian heritage, return to a respect for the Bible, the good news of Jesus' death and resurrection as a sacrificial atonement for our sins (if we are repentant), deal with our pride, greed and fear about our pension funds, and negative equity on our houses and walk boldly into the opportunity, freedom and self determination that an exit from the EU offers!

Remain = Project Fear
Remain = Project Greed
Remain = Project "I'm Rich so don't rock the boat you uneducated serfs"

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@cdimauro

Quote:

Do you remember what happened to Cuba and USA? More or less the same stuff. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion

Well, I believe one act of agression doesn't justify the other one. Or are you trying to say Russia never left the Cold War mentality?
And I don't think the Ukrainian 'Maidan' movement resulted in an "illegal coup". I guess every country leader (even the most democratively elected one) kind of looses his mandate when he starts shooting his people at the streets.

Quote:

Quote: You know, there are quite a few EU countries sharing borders with Russia. Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland... Should they be afraid? Why not? The were even part of USSR.

Wow. Just wow.
Finland and Poland were part of USSR? Like when precisely? Hmm, I guess a part of Finland was annexed by USSR in 1940 during the Winter War, and part of Poland was annexed by USSR in 1939 when Stalin and Hitler divided the country between themselves. But in that way - USSR had quite a portion of Germany under its influence not so long ago. So I guess that not only the Baltic States, Finland and Poland need to be afraid. The 'sphere of influence' is a very convenient term when trying to draw the borders anew.

Last edited by recedent on 09-Apr-2019 at 02:29 PM.

@BigD

Quote:

What you have failed to grasp is the medium and long term economic outcomes (and even the short term with much accuracy) CANNOT be gauged by the so called 'experts'!

I certainly haven't failed to grasp that - I fully agree that there are various uncertainties around the future consequences of BREXIT and that no expert in the world can give us a definitive answer on *these* points. The same is true, of course, in vice-versa - the experts are incapable of giving us definitive information about some of the consequences of staying in.

But when an individual member of the public takes such a decision they base it on an extremely limited set of information, much of which is spun and biased by the media (and politicians) anyway, and even then they are extremely vulnerable to their own personal beliefs and biases.

In my view it's too big a question to ask an ill-informed and unqualified member of the public to answer. And that's why I think there should never have been a referendum on BREXIT.

That said, we *were* asked the question. And I did try to do my bit to answer it.

On that point I am very upset with our politicians. It was their job to give us the following.

1. Here is what we know about the pros and cons of BREXIT
2. Here is what we don't know and what the risks are.
3. Here is our personal opinion.

Instead we had ridiculous campaigns of blatant lies on both sides of the fence. The politicians tried to spin statistics to suit their agendas, and this was plainly obvious to anyone who bothered to take the time to drill down on what they were quoting.

But there was so much of it going on that it got to the point where we simply could not know what was true, what was false, and what was just noise.

In the context of all this chaos that they created, they asked us to make an important decision about the future of our country.

Bizarre.

@recedent

Quote:

And I don't think the Ukrainian 'Maidan' movement resulted in an "illegal coup". I guess every country leader (even the most democratively elected one) kind of looses his mandate when he starts shooting his people at the streets.

Be careful with such logic. This is exactly the way of thinking used in the Russian propaganda to support their aggression against post-Maidan Ukraine.

It is really hard to have much sympathy for the post-coup leadership, when nearly the very first thing they did in power, was to discuss how to best oppress the Russian speaking part of the nation. These people were either stupid, or malevolent... or both.

In the end, this doesn´t matter. We must support whoever is ruling in Kiev as a matter of principle. Aggressor shall never think his gains are painless.

@BrianHoskins

Quote:

Instead we had ridiculous campaigns of blatant lies on both sides of the fence. The politicians tried to spin statistics to suit their agendas, and this was plainly obvious to anyone who bothered to take the time to drill down on what they were quoting.

Since when has ANYONE in the UK trusted their politicians? If voters believed the likes of Boris Johnson, Jeremy Corbyn and Tony Blair's pathetic cousin from across the political divide David Cameron, then they have turned their backs on basic common sense!

Our media, including the BBC is biased - fact. As I attempted to explain; our rich privileged political elite DO NOT WANT CHANGE of any type. They have done well out of the old system and ANY upheaval whether right or wrong for the UK upsets their investments, pension pots, property prices and the process requires our politicians to have to actually make decisions that they might get blamed for taking and requires our civil servants to actually have to do some serious hard work. They don't like it and resent doing it and it may make them poorer in the short term!

There is a vacuum of leadership in our political elite and the 'Remainers' (especially the MPs) never accepted the obvious fact that they lost and they lost hard in the Brexit referendum.

We should have ALL pulled together and made the best of the decision to leave the EU however our civil servants, politician and left leaning media have all dragged their feet, not given ANY suggestions of a way forward and perpetuated the very confusion and uncertainty that WILL devalue the aforementioned investments, pension pots and property values that they hold dear above all else!

HUMAN GREED NOT LACK OF EDUCATION, NOT LACK OF INFORMATION BUT A COMPLETE DISREGARD FOR POLITICAL FREEDOM AND SELF DETERMINATION HAS CREATED THIS CURRENT MESS NOT BREXIT ITSELF.

THE BRITISH PEOPLE KNEW WHAT THEY VOTED FOR INCLUDING:

1) NO POINTLESS PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION MEP ELECTIONS THAT LEADS TO REPRESENTATIVES THAT COW DOWN TO THE COMMISSION ANYWAY!

2) NO MORE EU RED TAPE

3) NO BEING DICTATED TO BY THE EU COMMISSION QUANGO WHICH OPERATES LIKE SEB BLATTER'S FIFA!

4) SOME SEMBLANCE OF BORDER CONTROLS AND THE ABILITY TO AT LEAST SET A REALISTIC IMMIGRATION QUOTA!

5) AVOIDING ALL THIS RIDICULOUSLY WASTEFUL NEGOTIATION BETWEEN 20+ MEMBER STATES THAT SLOWS ALL DECISION MAKING DOWN TO AN ABSOLUTE CRAWL!

It's not rocket science and we don't need an NHS donation figure on the side of a bus to swing our vote!

Last edited by BigD on 09-Apr-2019 at 04:26 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@thellier

Quote:

@OneTimer1 Most of the French people dont bother about this copyright law because they have more crucial problems like how to finish the month with a job that give not enough money.

This was exactly my impression.


Quote:

The yellow vest protests is what would happened in USA if Trump was not not been elected: The poor workers that are left on the side in small cities where the factories have closed, the trains station too , that got no more public services like a post office nor shops in the downtown (=lost jobs) but only globalized hypermarket

Well there are less train station in the US and Trump wants to shut down a lot of public services. But you might be right, when an elitist capitalist from News York, who was born with a golden spoon in his mouth does this, it will be OK for the poor workers. */sarcasm*


Quote:

The French people that knows about this copyright law (including me) are more favorable: There are still some reference newspapers/journalists in France and people dont want them to be looted by Google & co All the newspapers here have defended this copyright law: from The Monde to La Croix (catholic) to Charlie Hebdo (leftish)

We in Germany have nearly the same law that became an EU directive (article 11) now.

Google stooped the presentation of article snippets from newspapers, when the law came into force.

Then Google asked the most important Newspaper publishers if they want to be represented in Google search or if not, of course all wanted to be represented because they needed visitors.

And at the end, Google got the newspapers for free, except the small ones that where not important enough.

As a result, no publisher got money from Google, but the small newspapers are not listed any more.

Spain has a similar law but with harder conditions, as a result none of the Spanish newspapers are listed by Google. Well at least the Spanish American newspapers can get more attention.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 09-Apr-2019 at 06:28 PM.
Last edited by OneTimer1 on 09-Apr-2019 at 06:26 PM.

Quote:

BigD wrote: 5) AVOIDING ALL THIS RIDICULOUSLY WASTEFUL NEGOTIATION BETWEEN 20+ MEMBER STATES THAT SLOWS ALL DECISION MAKING DOWN TO AN ABSOLUTE CRAWL!

Well, it seems as if the UK has much more problems doing some simple negotiations in its parliament than alls the states in the EU.

@OneTimer1

Quote:

Well, it seems as if the UK has much more problems doing some simple negotiations in its parliament than alls the states in the EU.

That's because the UK's MPs are showing a disdain for the majority will of the people of the UK and parliamentary democracy in general with their actions regarding Brexit especially over the last two months.

Theresa May has successfully negotiated a withdrawal agreement; a stepping stone to further trade agreement negotiations and yet most of the MPs (and the speaker) stick their heels in, delay, procrastinate and complain. Most of them are more qualified to be Donald Tusk's and Jean-Claude Juncker's MEP whipping boys than MPs in the Mother of all Parliaments .

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@OneTimer1

Quote:

Well, it seems as if the UK has much more problems doing some simple negotiations in its parliament than alls the states in the EU.

Plus, let's see how long it takes the federal machinery to turn if Corbyn is allowed to substantially amend Theresa May's withdrawal agreement. IMHO there would be months of vetoes and counter votes or downright bloody mindedness and delay on the part of the EU in order to try and keep us paying into the pension pot of European bureaucrats forever!

The EU is not an organisation that you can negotiate with over any sensible time scale hence the only real choice to stop this uncertainty and damage to our economy was Theresa May's deal or 'No Deal' something our MPs are unable to comprehend in the selfish little theoretical minds

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BrianHoskins

Quote:

Instead we had ridiculous campaigns of blatant lies on both sides of the fence.

I'm sure this is true, but... the reason politicians lie is because a majority of voters want to be lied to. People want things that they can't have, so they naturally gravitate to politicians who promise things they can't deliver. The result is broken promises and acrimony, but the majority of voters never seem to learn.

Every once in a while one will see a local politician who more or less tells the truth, but they are seldom elected, and if they are, they don't go far. Anyone at the national level has to be a world-class demagogue to succeed. The 2016 US presidential elections are a case in point: the one thing Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton have in common is that they are both impressive liars.

The real problem isn't mendacious politicians; it's the vast number of uninformed and unthinking people who vote for them.

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

@

The EU (European Union) is the biggest political scam ever devised.

It advertises the free movement of people, goods, services, and capital, and yet it does not allow the UK to leave.

Wasn't there a wall in East Berlin for the same reasons?

@thellier

Quote:

thellier wrote: @Rob @OneTimer1 Most of the French people dont bother about this copyright law because they have more crucial problems like how to finish the month with a job that give not enough money. The yellow vest protests is what would happened in USA if Trump was not not been elected: The poor workers that are left on the side in small cities where the factories have closed, the trains station too , that got no more public services like a post office nor shops in the downtown (=lost jobs) but only globalized hypermarket Certainly the yellow vest protests would have more support from non poor peoples if it didnt turned in such a butchery: January 2019 : "144 serious wounds among yellow vests and journalists, including 92 by defensive bullet throwing shots. At least 14 victims lost an eye." "12 people died" The French people that knows about this copyright law (including me) are more favorable: There are still some reference newspapers/journalists in France and people dont want them to be looted by Google & co All the newspapers here have defended this copyright law: from The Monde to La Croix (catholic) to Charlie Hebdo (leftish) Quote: will not save the French culture it will make it less visible. If newspaper are looted to bankruptcy it will not help them to be visible once dead There is in France a more active politic to defend cultural stuffs like French cinema: for example there a lots of facilities to make (french or foreign) movies to be shot in Paris ( I have heard that New York make difficulties to let foreign films been shots in this city) So Paris is much more frequent and visible in films than other capitals. Alain Thellier - Paris - France

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/16/google-news-spain-publishing-fees-internet
Google News says ‘adiós’ to Spain in row over publishing fees



https://techcrunch.com/2014/12/14/spanish-newspapers-want-google-news-back/
According to the Spain Report, the Spanish Newspaper Publishers’ Association is now pleading for mercy.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@recedent Quote:

recedent wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Do you remember what happened to Cuba and USA? More or less the same stuff. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion Well, I believe one act of agression doesn't justify the other one.

Well, I think I've already explained my point-of-view in my last sentence on the previous comment (excluded the P.S.), right?
Quote:

Or are you trying to say Russia never left the Cold War mentality?

Might be. Or, at least, it came back.
Quote:

And I don't think the Ukrainian 'Maidan' movement resulted in an "illegal coup". I guess every country leader (even the most democratively elected one) kind of looses his mandate when he starts shooting his people at the streets.

pavlor already replied on this, but I've to add that sometimes it happens and still the government has the need to do it.

Think about terrorists that want to install a (non-so-democratic) new state, maybe based on some religious "law" (sic.).
Quote:

Quote: Why not? The were even part of USSR. Wow. Just wow. Finland and Poland were part of USSR? Like when precisely? Hmm, I guess a part of Finland was annexed by USSR in 1940 during the Winter War, and part of Poland was annexed by USSR in 1939 when Stalin and Hitler divided the country between themselves. But in that way - USSR had quite a portion of Germany under its influence not so long ago. So I guess that not only the Baltic States, Finland and Poland need to be afraid. The 'sphere of influence' is a very convenient term when trying to draw the borders anew.

You already answered yourself. Yes, it happens: whether you like it or not.

That's real life. Unfortunately.

@BigD Quote:

BigD wrote: 2) Also, the question should be asked; is it better to live in a restrictive undemocratic Federalist Super-State where only around 34% of our populace actually cares to vote for the proportional representation mess of a MEP selection vote every 5 years!

So, in UK the population always vote: 100% of them. And maybe you vote every year? Month? Day?

Nice to know...
Quote:

...Or as I would argue, is it better to be in control of your own destiny, to be prosperous or destitute dependent on our own efforts, entrepreneurial spirit and tenacity rather than safe socialist / federalist hand outs (our own money given back to us in part and dictated for specific projects by EU quangos), mutual protectionism and back slapping amongst irrelevant and back-facing European federalists.

At least many EU countries implement some welfare state. What happens in UK when you lose your job?

BTW, EU warmly asked the members to implements laws to go in this direction. But, unfortunately, it wasn't mandatory.

Yes, I like a "social/ist" state: the person should be at the center. NOT the capital and totally free liberalism.
Quote:

3) We are the UK! We don't need bureaucratic red tape, directives and restrictions to stop us turning rogue and declaring war on other nations. The very idea of the EU's creation to make it impossible to declare war on each other is insulting and ridiculous. If Germany had turned the screw any more on Greece in regards to their national debt, austerity and the Greek national debt repayments there would have been civil unrest and civil war whether the EU attempts to make it impossible or not.

This is a delirium. Not even deserves a comment.
Quote:

4) The Federal European Super State is a dangerous experiment gone wrong. It restricts our freedom, is in no way representative of a bottom up parliamentary democracy like our own (whatever John Bercow thinks ) and with its ridiculous quango in the European Commission telling the European Parliament what laws to vote on is one step away from the Imperial Senate of the Star Wars Prequels.

What do you think that is already UK now? A single, homogeneous, country? Why don't you ask Scottish what do they think about UK.
Quote:

5) We are a free democratic country that respects international law, is a safe haven for true refugees not economic migrants (such as persecuted Christians fleeing brutal Islamic regimes) and has a legal structure and political system that is the model for the world.

Which, as someone else stated, wasn't even to able to decide what to do, and is asking to extend the period to take a final decision.

"Order! Order! Order!"
Quote:

6) All we need to do to succeed post-Brexit IMHO is to cling / return to our Christian heritage, return to a respect for the Bible, the good news of Jesus' death and resurrection as a sacrificial atonement for our sins (if we are repentant), deal with our pride, greed and fear about our pension funds, and negative equity on our houses and walk boldly into the opportunity, freedom and self determination that an exit from the EU offers!

Again, plain delirium. You're no different from the terrorists that want to implant an Islamic state.

Basing a state on the Bible means going back in the dark age, where people could be throw stones for blasphemy, and you can even become slave if you weren't able to pay your debts (yes, even selling you sons: the Bible clearly specify the price to pay for a male or female son).

Completely non-sense. As usual, when you start talking about religion.

@OneTimer1

Quote:

But you might be right, when an elitist capitalist from News York, who was born with a golden spoon in his mouth does this, it will be OK for the poor workers. */sarcasm*

If Trump was elected it was only because the democrats have betrayed the poor workers for years. Trump is the consequence (of angry poor workers) not the solution. But certainly Clinton if elected would have do nothing for poor workers so would have to face angry people too in a way or another

Yellow vest protests is the same consequence: the socialists in France that have be betrayed the poor workers for years with anger that grows up.
So electing Macron was the same "dégagisme" stuff : put away the old poltics parties that have betrayed the people for years.

About "degagisme" note that latest survey give in France
5% for Socialists
14% for Republicans
that were the two major politics parties so people dont want them anymore

Side note: In France the classic expression is "born with a silver spoon" but Yellow vest protesters said that "Macron was born with a golden spoon" to mean he is coming from a top elite classe

@bison

I can find no disagreement with your post. But it does highlight that democracy is kind of a broken system. It might be the best system of governance that we currently have, but it has significant short-comings for the reasons you've described.

And this:

Quote:

it's the vast number of uninformed and unthinking people who vote for them.

This is why having a Referendum on a complex subject spanning multiple professional disciplines was an inherently bad idea.

When I make the statement that the Referendum was a bad idea, I'm not saying that the decision to leave is bad. In fact I am making no statement either way about that. I am only saying that letting the people decide was incredibly foolish.

[EDITS: typos]

Last edited by BrianHoskins on 10-Apr-2019 at 09:59 AM.
Last edited by BrianHoskins on 10-Apr-2019 at 09:58 AM.