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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Atari betting us again
Posted on 21-Jun-2019 19:49:27
#41 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11143
From: Norway

@OneTimer1

There are some great benefits of using FPGA's. One chip that does everything, instead of many chips from many venders, and many drivers to write.

hardware from lots venders also suck because suddenly they stop supporting chipset X, and start selling chipset Y, and suddenly need to redesign your hardware to support chipset Y, when really they have more important things to do.

You can see this problem where clearly on AmigaONE hardware, drivers taking forever to get completed. This is also an issue with AROS, many motherboards you have to use hosted version of AROS, (or you can only get online, if connect to internet over your mobile phone.) you also see on MorphOS not supporting the same graphic cards as AmigaOS4.x, is so hard to support everything. And for users it becomes annoying to find graphic card that can support firmware (CFE or UBOOT) and OS, and can used in multi-boot configuration with Linux or MorphOS. Wrong graphic card and you can't boot Linux, or MorphOS or AmigaOS. you be stuck with only one working system.

maybe can get away with less costly motherboard using standard chips, but the development cost goes up on the software side. it all has to beta tested, fixed, and beta tested again until it works.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Jun-2019 at 08:01 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Jun-2019 at 07:54 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Jun-2019 at 07:52 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Jun-2019 at 07:51 PM.

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Nonefornow 
Re: Atari betting us again
Posted on 21-Jun-2019 20:43:09
#42 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2013
Posts: 137
From: Greater Los Angeles Area

@Kronos

And all we have left now are some C64X, maybe some Amiga mini, (which I have never seen) and a Commodore inspired Linux OS.

https://archiveos.org/commodoreos/

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wawa 
Re: Atari betting us again
Posted on 21-Jun-2019 23:38:46
#43 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6187
From: Unknown

and yet the advertisements about a new commodore computers went on berlin subway. so apparently around the world. people who barely ever heard of commodore itself. let alone amiga were mentioning the revival of commodore computers to me. while none of these has certainty ever heard of or considered os4, morphos or aros.

im certainly not a supporter of, lets call them, cusa, yet trying to intentionally make fun of them like misspelling the label backwards dosnt really gain credibility or attention for any platform here.

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OneTimer1 
Re: Atari betting us again
Posted on 22-Jun-2019 21:14:58
#44 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 498
From: Unknown

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:

There are some great benefits of using FPGA's. One chip that does everything, instead of many chips from many venders,


Wrong, you still need a similar number of chips with a FPGA like you would need it on a RasPI and a single FPGA is more expensive than a 5 RasPi

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:

and many drivers to write.


Linux is free and used an many existing emulator projects, most RasPi like boards are sold with free Linux distributions in the background.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 22-Jun-2019 at 09:27 PM.
Last edited by OneTimer1 on 22-Jun-2019 at 09:18 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Atari betting us again
Posted on 22-Jun-2019 22:12:09
#45 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11143
From: Norway

@OneTimer1

We are not Linux users, if have Linux drivers it has to be rewritten to work on AmigaOS this is lot of work, because even AmigaOS4.1/MorphOS are nothing like Linux. It almost drive me mad writing the catweasel mk4 drivers for AmigaOS4.1, the problem your facing is that if you crash a driver, you can't unload it from memory, it get stuck, you most reboot your Amiga system, so every tiny mistake you have to reboot the system. This where different from writing a program. (I'm was happy when Ian tok over the project.)

Where you crash a program you can ignore it, where often. Then fix the code and start the program for the 2en time, so one crashed program/window and program that has not crashed running it's own window. And then you reboot when your happy, so fewer reboots, less waiting, less problems with corruption and so on.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-Jun-2019 at 10:14 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-Jun-2019 at 10:14 PM.

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OneTimer1 
Re: Atari betting us again
Posted on 22-Jun-2019 22:50:33
#46 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 498
From: Unknown

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:

We are not Linux users, ...


I bet you are using a smart-phone, tablet, TV or blu-ray player with Linux inside and you might not even know it.

Linux on an 'Amiga Mini' might only start UAE with an AmigaOS and users would only notice AmigaOS.

But the 'Atari VCS', that was the topic of this thread, might do the same. This products are made for people who want to revive their memories of old console games, not for 'VCS OS zealots'.

A potential Amiga Games console doesn't even need an AmigaOS, just a selection menu for some older ECS/AGA games which ignored the AmigaOS anyway.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 22-Jun-2019 at 10:52 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Atari betting us again
Posted on 22-Jun-2019 22:55:29
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11143
From: Norway

@OneTimer1

Quote:
Linux on such an 'Amiga Mini' might only start UAE with an AmigaOS and users would only notice AmigaOS.


it run where slow on setup like that, the emulation overhead is high!!
AmigaOS4.1 that is using hardware composition, and where games are more demanding, also where noticeable when using web browsers and so on. also when your coding or writing code like I do, you notice it lot more time to compile programs.
video playback also suffers.

Sure if only interested in game written in 1988 and you might have no issues with it under emulation, but even, games written in 1988 might not look right. I'm have noticed that interlace mode often do not look correct, also it seems to be latency issue, where what happens on the screen actually happens one frame after it should, so you really less time to react. It does not feel correct. This where really hardware is better, FPGA's are great at giving you what emulation might not fully be able to deliver.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-Jun-2019 at 11:09 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-Jun-2019 at 11:08 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-Jun-2019 at 11:07 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-Jun-2019 at 11:06 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-Jun-2019 at 10:57 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Atari betting us again
Posted on 22-Jun-2019 23:11:24
#48 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11143
From: Norway

@OneTimer1

Quote:
I bet you are using a smart-phone, tablet, TV or blu-ray player with Linux inside and you might not even know it.


Well my blu-ray player is not trying to be a printer, and my TV does not try to be washing machine.

Quote:
But the 'Atari VCS', that was the topic of this thread, might do the same. This products are made for people who want to revive their memories of old console games, not for 'VCS OS zealots'.


I don't know will it suffer the same fate as Commodore USA? or will people buy into the Atari plastic. Or are Atari people also picky about how games play what to expect from a system.

I really don't know, I can only speak from my point of view.

When I buy PC's normally buy it in parts, and get tower that has good airflow, so it does not make lots of noise in my room, as for my AmigaONE I removed front panel with the boing ball logo, so now air can flow freely, the boing ball or Amiga plastic does rally interest me, personally I think.

All in one design where the keyboard is integrated into the computer is stupid (Atari ST, Amiga 500, Amiga 1200), move the keyboard/computer and the power cable falls out on backside. something I really don't want to happen when I'm playing a game or in the middle of something. A stationary computer is really different from laptop, if that happens on laptop your on battery backup.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Jun-2019 at 04:22 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-Jun-2019 at 11:51 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-Jun-2019 at 11:30 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-Jun-2019 at 11:28 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-Jun-2019 at 11:26 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-Jun-2019 at 11:25 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-Jun-2019 at 11:22 PM.

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Rob 
Re: Atari betting us again
Posted on 23-Jun-2019 19:12:51
#49 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5823
From: S.Wales

@OneTimer1

Quote:
But the 'Atari VCS', that was the topic of this thread, might do the same. This products are made for people who want to revive their memories of old console games, not for 'VCS OS zealots'.


You can do that with the Flashback consoles but this is trying to be a modern console. The problem I see here is that there a no modern games for it in sight. I can't see why anyone would want to pre-order a system that doesn't even seem to include a bundled game and doesn't even promise any launch titles let alone the kind of catalogue that would be needed to gain any kind of traction.

Last edited by Rob on 23-Jun-2019 at 07:17 PM.

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fishy_fis 
Re: Atari betting us again
Posted on 24-Jun-2019 3:33:14
#50 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1851
From: Australia

@Rob

lol.
You're on an Amiga site and (iirc) an OS4 user, but are having trouble understanding why people do things that arent logical to most? Buying an expensive system without any real software you cite as a negative.

Irony isn't really a strong suite is it?

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Rob 
Re: Atari betting us again
Posted on 24-Jun-2019 15:30:36
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5823
From: S.Wales

@fishy_fis

OS4 and it's associated hardware make no pretense of trying to compete with mainstream hardware and operating systems. It is purely a hobbyist product aimed at enthusiasts.
The pitfalls of the OS and hardware are well documented and what software there is for it is a known quantity. This meaning that potentially customers can make an informed choice when deciding whether to buy it or not. You can also actually buy the hardware through network of specialised dealers who cater to this hobbyist market.

The Atari VCS is aiming to compete with the mainstream consoles and costs a similar price or in some cases is more expensive than a mainstream console complete with a controller and a bundled game or two. As I stated before there are no new games promised or any statement of support from any major publisher yet they want you to stump up $400 to pre-order hardware that may arrive in 9- 10 months time.
How can you make an informed choice on that basis.

Oh, when trying to demean someone using a colloquialism you should at least make the effort to check you are using the correct wording.

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Hypex 
Re: Atari betting us again
Posted on 6-Jul-2019 16:42:46
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9625
From: Greensborough, Australia

@wawa

Quote:
neither can os4 (even combined with both previous), so whats the point?


My point was to determine what made AROS and MOS more realistic. Be that software or hardware. And a possible combination of both.

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Hypex 
Re: Atari betting us again
Posted on 7-Jul-2019 15:29:07
#53 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9625
From: Greensborough, Australia

@hth313

Quote:
Realistic in as being a way to build a decent low cost Amiga like system. You need x86 (or ARM) for this.


Okay so good price per performance.

Quote:
Amiga OS does not run on either of those and are unlikely to ever be able to do that. This for two reasons, Amiga OS relies on a lot of low level assembly language and are in the hands of a company that is not able to do much progress and who does not want to even go this route.


A lot of the ASM would have been replaced by C when they ported it to PowerPC. In fact all 68K ASM in the kernel would have needed to be replaced. The exception would be programs such as ARexx they don't have a license to port to non-68K. Aside from that would be ASM just like any other OS like Linux where it's needed. I've said this before, but OS4 being ported to PowerPC actually brought AmigaOS closer to running on x86, or ARM. Even if this hasn't yet happened. But there are some PowerPC specifics like exception structures that are too low level.

When OS4 was first released it would have likely been at the level of Windows '95 and ten years behind. Time has passed and despite contuined work it still remains at a level behind. But to even progress it further than it is would require more money and resources that just don't seem to be there.

Quote:
BSD ended up in the court about ownership issues with the UNIX trademark owner. Linux did not have this problem and grabbed a lead.


Ridiculous. Was this after Apple grabbed BSD for their kernel?

Quote:
I do even dream about the Amiga being able to touch the mainstream competition like Windows, macOS or Linux. That train left the station 20-25 years ago.


I did the same about myself being a married young man. And if ever there was a train I missed it. So some things remain a dream. When it's too late and they can never happen.

Last edited by Hypex on 08-Jul-2019 at 03:42 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Atari betting us again
Posted on 7-Jul-2019 15:36:25
#54 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9625
From: Greensborough, Australia

@tlosm

Quote:
Atari in ages change it skin from hardware (last machine jaguar) to game pubblisher.


What about when the Amiga changed from hardware to a game publisher called Amiga Inc that packaged Amiga games in some emulator for mobiles?

Quote:
Xbox One next year Xbox Scarlett.


Where's the XBox Two? Or XBox 720? XBox 360x2.

Quote:
Nintendo Switch and next holidays probably nintendo switch mini (2ds will be no more made)


Will they drop PowerPC?

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Hypex 
Re: Atari betting us again
Posted on 7-Jul-2019 15:45:41
#55 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9625
From: Greensborough, Australia

@OneTimer1

Quote:
There are a lot of things that would reimplements the AGA chip-set and some like UAE or Minimig are cheaper and already available.


They are but UAE is software based and even with ARM based solutions it tends to be inaccurate and suffer faults. I don't recall the MiniMig reaching AGA.

Quote:
But if someone would design a 'Retro Amiga' for mass production, he would go the cheapest possible way and this would never use something expensive like a FPGA.


They are almost there with RPi and UAE in a box. But it's not perfect. To do things in software is really against the Amiga way of doing it in hardware in the first place. FPGA can be more accurate. I always hear that UAE doesn't play the Paula sound correctly. Well the software mixer would need to exactly duplicate the digital process and not just do additive mixing. So an FPGA could get closer to the mark. But there are analogue electronics that either one can still fall short off.

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Rose 
Re: Atari betting us again
Posted on 7-Jul-2019 16:41:56
#56 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 628
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Quote:
Ridiculous. Was this after Apple grabbed BSD for their kernel?


WAY before it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIX_System_Laboratories,_Inc._v._Berkeley_Software_Design,_Inc.

Quote:


Quote:
Nintendo Switch and next holidays probably nintendo switch mini (2ds will be no more made)


Will they drop PowerPC?


They already did. Switch runs on nVidia's Tegra X1.

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tlosm 
Re: Atari betting us again
Posted on 8-Jul-2019 5:16:39
#57 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2654
From: Amiga land

@Hypex

nintendo drop powerpc from when they release swich ... nintendo swapped to arm and tegra for the home console. wii u was the last powerpc console made.

xbox one instead of xbox 360/720/iii or other names i think was the choice because they was ready for cloud gaming from 2013. but the world was not ready for it (network www speed). probably with scarlett we will see the cloud version of xbox (prject xcloud)

Last edited by tlosm on 08-Jul-2019 at 05:20 AM.
Last edited by tlosm on 08-Jul-2019 at 05:19 AM.

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kolla 
Re: Atari betting us again
Posted on 8-Jul-2019 6:37:00
#58 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1315
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Hypex

Quote:

I don't recall the MiniMig reaching AGA.


Then you have not paid attention.

https://somuch.guru/minimig/minimig-mist/
https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Minimig-AGA_MiSTer

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kolla 
Re: Atari betting us again
Posted on 8-Jul-2019 6:52:34
#59 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1315
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Hypex

Apple didn't "grab BSD" for their kernel. NeXTSTEP was Mach and BSD based in its origin, and Apple were on their knees for Steve Jobs to return and save the company.

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terminills 
Re: Atari betting us again
Posted on 8-Jul-2019 10:38:10
#60 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1362
From: Unknown

@Rob

Ironically the Ryzen R1000 it uses is more powerful than the Xbox One not so sure about the One X though.

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