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      /  PPC Instruction Set Now Open Source
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PosterThread
Zylesea 
Re: PPC Instruction Set Now Open Source
Posted on 21-Aug-2019 23:10:38
#21 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2132
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@ferrels

Quote:

ferrels wrote:
@Zylesea

Why not just support Classic 68K Amigas instead of dreaming of FPGA Amigas such as the Mist, Action Replay, or the Vampire?


FPGA reimplementations of 68k are faster than available and compatible 68k processors. The 68k is EOL. FPGA is the only way to proceed on that processor line (except from software emulation . which is even more efficient)

Quote:
And I don't know of any Macs that run OS4.

Ever heard of project Mona..?

Thing is: the old Apple kit is cheap, well documented and way fatser than all fpga solutions of the foreseable future. My ppc macs are running a nice Amigaish system (the mini does it since 10 years now!). OS4 could have been there, too...

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asymetrix 
Re: PPC Instruction Set Now Open Source
Posted on 22-Aug-2019 0:26:34
#22 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 813
From: United Kingdom

@thread

I can imagine a cheap arm processor simulating 68k attached to PCIe card or FPGA based AMD chip : simulating AGA and enhanced to access other features.

https://github.com/VerticalResearchGroup/miaow

This would be a base system and educational microcontroller.

An Amiga microcontroller, for new students to learn 68k ASM + AGA Amiga programming.

Universities could be supplied these cheap cards and provide feedback, to increase the NEXT gen of Amiga developers.

UDEMY has not one 68000 embedded microprocessor course.
Not one OCS/AGA Amiga graphics 'demo' course.

Obviously PPC is an option too.

Lost opportunity.


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ferrels 
Re: PPC Instruction Set Now Open Source
Posted on 22-Aug-2019 6:15:38
#23 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 824
From: Arizona

@Zylesea

Quote:
Ever heard of project Mona..?


Yes, I've heard of it and it was a complete failure...no audio, no network, and it barely ran at all and was quickly thrown onto the trash heap of failed projects. Is that project supposed to be a good reason to go out and buy a Mac because it's actually quite ridiculous to claim that a Mac is an alternative platform for running OS4.

As for the speed, there are people still running OS4 on their Amiga Sams at 1Ghz and they're quite happy, so your argument that a PPC softcore is too slow for general purpose use falls flat. If it was too slow as you suggest, then Xilinx certainly would not have partnered with IBM and Power ISA to even create the softcore in the first place. FPGA's are also getting faster all the time.

Quote:
The 68k is EOL.


You must not be paying attention because the PPC architecture is also EOL, hence the move behind the creation of the PPC softcore.

Quote:
Thing is: the old Apple kit is cheap, well documented and way fatser than all fpga solutions of the foreseable future


And none of them run OS4.

It doesn't matter how cheap it is if there are no drivers for the audio, NIC and other peripherals. If it was just a matter of cost, then there would already be lots of Macs running OS4, but there aren't. Hyperion and A-Eon don't make money by supporting old Apple hardware so you'll never see a full implementation of OS4 running on Mac hardware.

The audio and NIC chips on existing NG Amigas can be replicated in the FPGA negating the need for new drivers being developed. A Xilinx board with a slot to accommodate a video card would be all that's needed to replicate a Sam or an X1000.

And I don't care that your Macs are running MorphOS or other Amiga-like systems. I'm referring to OS4.

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pavlor 
Re: PPC Instruction Set Now Open Source
Posted on 22-Aug-2019 9:09:06
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8993
From: Unknown

@ferrels

Quote:
so your argument that a PPC softcore is too slow for general purpose use falls flat.


Benchmarks? We know how "fast" is Vampire. I don´t expect PPC softcore will provide better performance on the same class FPGA.

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Zylesea 
Re: PPC Instruction Set Now Open Source
Posted on 22-Aug-2019 10:51:42
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2132
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@ferrels

Only because Project Mona was not completed you think it was crap? What a pathetic reasoning! Well, then let's put OS4 for X1000 or X5000 to the bin, too. Hardware was fully supported by OS4 there from beginning...? Wait, it wasn't - then put it to the trash!
And with that reasoning don't even think about OS4 on FPGA - it may not support the NIC or soundcard on initial atempts, hence -> nil:

Btw.: While the Power architecture is practically dead it is not EOL though. It's still active and further developed. Not very prosperous, but still.
Nevertheless I would leave Power ASAP (if the e6500 laptop materializes in the not too distant future It may be a viable stop gap) and go x64, but that's another story.And OS4 will probably not go that route but keep on follow its doomed path...

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Rob 
Re: PPC Instruction Set Now Open Source
Posted on 22-Aug-2019 19:03:43
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5813
From: S.Wales

@ferrels

Quote:
Now an OS4 system could be designed and manufactured for around the same cost as a Vampire.


Trevor has said in the past that the Tabor will be priced at around €400. Vesalia are taking pre-orders (expression of interest only) with a projected price of €499 so it looks like the 2 will be around the same price. Where is the price saving on your really weak PPC core implemented in FPGA?

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ferrels 
Re: PPC Instruction Set Now Open Source
Posted on 22-Aug-2019 19:44:46
#27 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 824
From: Arizona

@Zylesea

Quote:
Only because Project Mona was not completed you think it was crap?


Yes, Mona was/is crap. If it was any good, people would be using it. It's a failure.

The NIC and audio hardware of an OS4 machine can be replicated in an FPGA just as easily as an entire classic Amiga was replicated in the Vampire.

And yes, PPC is dead/EOL except for some small embedded applications. Even the Tabor is using an embedded version of the PPC architecture because the desktop CPUs are no longer profitable to make.

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ferrels 
Re: PPC Instruction Set Now Open Source
Posted on 22-Aug-2019 19:50:51
#28 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 824
From: Arizona

@Rob

Quote:
Where is the price saving on your really weak PPC core implemented in FPGA?



Where is the cost savings in using an overpriced, weak, embedded CPU with an incompatible FPU in a desktop computer known as the Tabor? The Tabor doesn't make any more sense financially or technically than a PPC FPGA.

You're one of those folks who is confused about whether Amigas should be a hobby or something else. There is nothing about ANY Amiga that makes sense from a technical or financial standpoint. The Amiga, no matter what form it takes today, is a hobby and it doesn't have to make sense.....

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K-L 
Re: PPC Instruction Set Now Open Source
Posted on 22-Aug-2019 19:54:54
#29 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2006
Posts: 1310
From: Oullins, France

@ferrels

Tabor will be way faster than any PPC in a FPGA (I highly doubt you'll even reach the power of a 601 in your FPGA unless you use highly overpriced FPGAs... if they exist).

We all know you hate being proved wrong... but you are regarding this specific topic.

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number6 
Re: PPC Instruction Set Now Open Source
Posted on 22-Aug-2019 20:58:54
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 10652
From: In the village

@Zylesea

Quote:
OS4 could have been there, too...


As I've posted many times, Moana was a legal problem. The documents from this era (now 10 years ago) are part of the 2007-2009 lawsuit history, as are Andrea's posts about protecting his IP, and the lawsuit filed in the EU in that regard.

@thread

I don't think it is fair to analyze the status of said project or what it might have become based on the above issues. In the end all it did was foster more division between NG "owners".

#6

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spudmiga 
Re: PPC Instruction Set Now Open Source
Posted on 22-Aug-2019 22:58:06
#31 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 12-Dec-2002
Posts: 794
From: England, United Kingdom

@thread

I will wait with baited breath. I would love to get a more modern Amiga to replace my trusty A1200. A Power Amiga is just what I need, alas, like many, cannot justify the hefty price tag of the AmigaOne X5000.
Amiga to me, has always been good value but affordable home computing.
If someone can bundle together a system, complete with case, accessories, OS4 for under £500 it will turn more heads for sure and I would probably take the plunge.

Spud

Last edited by spudmiga on 22-Aug-2019 at 10:58 PM.

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Rob 
Re: PPC Instruction Set Now Open Source
Posted on 23-Aug-2019 23:15:40
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5813
From: S.Wales

@ferrels

Quote:
Where is the cost savings in using an overpriced, weak, embedded CPU with an incompatible FPU in a desktop computer known as the Tabor?


I was not claiming that offering some kind of cost saving. It was you that claimed that your fantasy PPC FPGA system would offer a cheaper alternative for OS4.

Quote:
The Tabor doesn't make any more sense financially or technically than a PPC simulated in FPGA.


What makes financial sense is subjective to each person when it comes to hobbies. However if someone's intended hobby is to use or develop for OS4 and 2 different systems are offered for around the same price but one is many more times faster than the other the every aspect then it's fairly obvious which they'd pick.
It's like if someone offered you a 4MB RAM card or a Blizzard 1260 for the same price, and the gulf between the performance of your Vampire like PPC and the Tabor would be pretty similar.

Quote:
You're one of those folks who is confused about whether Amigas should be a hobby or something else.


Wow! I don't know how you extrapolated that from me challenging your assertion that a PPC FPGA system would offer a cheaper alternative for running OS4.

Quote:
There is nothing about ANY Amiga that makes sense from a technical or financial standpoint. The Amiga, no matter what form it takes today, is a hobby and it doesn't have to make sense.....


Well Duh that pretty of obvious but even if I did have a reality distortion field around the Amiga's place and prominence in the world I at least follow the discourse enough to know that using an FPGA to simulate PPC is not a viable alternative to real silicon and likely won't be for a considerable amount of time.

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ferrels 
Re: PPC Instruction Set Now Open Source
Posted on 24-Aug-2019 4:34:35
#33 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 824
From: Arizona

@Rob

Quote:
I was not claiming that offering some kind of cost saving. It was you that claimed that your fantasy PPC FPGA system would offer a cheaper alternative for OS4.


You must not be able to read or follow links because it isn't a fantasy. https://openpowerfoundation.org/the-next-step-in-the-openpower-foundation-journey/
https://www.nextplatform.com/2019/08/20/big-blue-open-sources-power-chip-instruction-set/


Quote:
Wow! I don't know how you extrapolated that from me challenging your assertion that a PPC FPGA system would offer a cheaper alternative for running OS4.


No extrapolation needed. Right now you can't even get your hands on an X1000, nor a Tabor and the price of an X5000, if you can find one, is over 2000 euros. Yet I can get a Xlinix Spartan FPGA dev board for less than $750 if I shop around. It's just simple arithmetic.....but if you feel the need to extrapolate and make blind assumptions, then knock yourself out.

http://amigaonthelake.com/amigaone-x5000-system/
http://www.a-eon.com/?page=x1000

Last edited by ferrels on 24-Aug-2019 at 04:55 AM.
Last edited by ferrels on 24-Aug-2019 at 04:50 AM.
Last edited by ferrels on 24-Aug-2019 at 04:36 AM.

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Kronos 
Re: PPC Instruction Set Now Open Source
Posted on 24-Aug-2019 9:51:25
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2166
From: Unknown

@ferrels

Sure you can buy that Xlinix board, load the SoftCPU onto it and hope that OS4 runs on it by magic mushrooms....

Or you could source yourself a used Sam460 or Pegasos2 to run it much faster than the Xlinix could do if it could do it at all. Heck it might even be beaten by a Sam440.

Sure in the long run there will be FPGAs that can emulate a PPC faster than an X5000, but that doesn't help you today, nir was it the intention of open-sourcing the PPC.

That was done to allow experimentation (at slower than native speed) and the creation of actual ASICs down the line. This would allow companies to create their own PPCs just like the can now do based on ARM.

Good idea, but IMO 10 years too late.

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BigD 
Re: PPC Instruction Set Now Open Source
Posted on 24-Aug-2019 13:01:21
#35 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4874
From: UK

@Kronos

Too late for who? The automotive industry? Apple? To make PPC a viable low power competitor to ARM?

For the Amiga community it couldn't have come at a better time. Amiga NG hardware could use FPGA chips or a custom designed CPU could be built by Varisys for an A-EON motherboard. Great stuff!

Also, if the A-Cube designed open laptop project needs a faster chip for a future model they could commission a pin compatible replacement to avoid a complete board redesign!

Last edited by BigD on 24-Aug-2019 at 01:05 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 24-Aug-2019 at 01:02 PM.

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Kronos 
Re: PPC Instruction Set Now Open Source
Posted on 24-Aug-2019 13:21:51
#36 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2166
From: Unknown

@BigD

And how would that work? Vampire/080 gets Pentium2/603 level of performance (at best), so in order to get G4/G5 level of performance we'd need to wait at least another 15 years for FPGAs to get that fast.

Creating an PPC-ASIC requires much bigger markets.

So yes, if that had been done 10 years ago, PPC-core might have been all sort of chips some of which may have ended up being "misused" resulting in a different kind of rPI.

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bison 
Re: PPC Instruction Set Now Open Source
Posted on 24-Aug-2019 15:48:38
#37 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1371
From: N-Space

@BigD

I think a custom CPU would be too expensive -- it would probably cost more than the existing CP9M01, which is already available and more than adequate. Of course, Hyperion would have to update OS4.1 to make *any* POWER-based scheme work. Unfortunately, they don't seem to be currently active in the software development business.

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BigD 
Re: PPC Instruction Set Now Open Source
Posted on 24-Aug-2019 20:27:00
#38 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4874
From: UK

@Kronos

Well look at another way; in 15 years we could have cheap G5 class FPGAs whatever happens! It's a good fall back foe when the bottom completely falls out of the PPC market!

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Rose 
Re: PPC Instruction Set Now Open Source
Posted on 24-Aug-2019 21:04:23
#39 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 603
From: Unknown

"Our hardware isn't expensive enough yet so how about if we rolled our own CPU's too?"


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BigD 
Re: PPC Instruction Set Now Open Source
Posted on 24-Aug-2019 22:36:58
#40 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4874
From: UK

@Rose

I'm all for going back to the 'pure' MOS techniques of cutting the CPU masks by hand with Stanley knifes rather than designing on computers. Maybe we could demand that new tributes to the B52s songs must be first composed and uploaded to YouTube before new Amiga NG Mobos are 'allowed' to be finalised with the attributed song name silkscreened to the board. All new AmigaOS like OSes that are ported to different PPC CPU variants should be developed from original Workbench 3.1 sources rather than risking the heresy of Hyperion and/or Haage & Partner forks in the development. Sacrifices to the 'machine god of the Amiga' should be made by the user on the purchase of these hallowed machines including but not limited to the melting of tens if not hundreds of Intel CPUs, Atari STs and copies of Doom, Adobe Photoshop, Microsoft Office and Windows 95!

Maybe in the vast grim dark Amiga future all this will come to pass

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