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      /   Public Release of MorphOS 3.12
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Rockstaratemyhamster 
Re: Public Release of MorphOS 3.12
Posted on 5-Oct-2019 19:45:09
#41 ]
Member
Joined: 4-Oct-2019
Posts: 21
From: Waterbury,CT

@ASiegel

Entitlement is a very misused adjective in this instance, for the true definition of entitlement one should look at Hilary Clinton who thought she should get the biggest job in town purely because she was a woman not because she was the best person for the job.


It’s very telling that with your two sets of replies you have not even attempted to engage with your installed customer base and responded back to what is actually a valid question. It’s also very clear why the platform hasn’t taken off in the way that many of your hard working and talented people would have hoped.

People clearly don’t need to read too much into things, people are intelligent enough to draw their own conclusions.

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ASiegel 
Re: Public Release of MorphOS 3.12
Posted on 5-Oct-2019 19:51:22
#42 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2013
Posts: 185
From: Unknown

@Rockstaratemyhamster

Quote:
People clearly don’t need to read too much into things, people are intelligent enough to draw their own conclusions.


I see. No citation to prove your accusation to be true. Hopefully that speaks for itself indeed.

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Rockstaratemyhamster 
Re: Public Release of MorphOS 3.12
Posted on 5-Oct-2019 20:16:36
#43 ]
Member
Joined: 4-Oct-2019
Posts: 21
From: Waterbury,CT

@ASiegel

You will find it is very easy to provide all sorts of citations from all sorts of places, assuming of course they haven't been conveniently removed from those public forums. That in itself should tell you everything.

Are you not even interested in finding out from an X5000 user what they hope to get out MorphOS by using a Southern Islands graphics card? I'd wager you would have quite a few approach the MorphOS desk next weekend with a few questions.






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Skateman 
Re: Public Release of MorphOS 3.12
Posted on 6-Oct-2019 17:06:54
#44 ]
Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2017
Posts: 88
From: Netherlands

@ASiegel

I would love to buy a copy for my X5000. But like mentioned by others.... i would love to have support for the Graphics card that came with the X5000. (in my case an R7 250)

As having used morphos in the past.... (like 8 years ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hfhc-XlO5jA&t=5s i want to have some 3D acceleration)

Quake3 yes please

_________________
AmigaOne X5000 -> 2GHz / 16GB RAM / Radeon R7 250 / M-Audio 5.1 -> AmigaOS 4.1 FE / Ubuntu Linux
Amiga 1200 -> Recapped / 68ec020 ACA 1221ec / CF HDD / RetroNET connected to the world

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Fl@sh 
Re: Public Release of MorphOS 3.12
Posted on 6-Oct-2019 20:49:58
#45 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2004
Posts: 124
From: Napoli - Italy

@TRIPOS

I have just buyed a “new” ati x1900gf got 10euro from eBay
I don’t know if I’ll reflash it with Mac ppc bios or I’ll leave it as is.. I think it should work in both ways.
I hope to receive it soon and test morphos next week.

Later I’ll repost results, stay tuned.

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kolla 
Re: Public Release of MorphOS 3.12
Posted on 6-Oct-2019 20:51:35
#46 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1315
From: Trondheim, Norway

I will buy MorphOS once the license is not tied to hardware - heck, if that happens, I'll gladly buy 5 licenses. Until then, cool - I just end up playing with it a few half hours on an old mini after each release :)

Last edited by kolla on 06-Oct-2019 at 08:52 PM.

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recedent 
Re: Public Release of MorphOS 3.12
Posted on 7-Oct-2019 14:02:45
#47 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Jan-2010
Posts: 222
From: Tarnów

@kolla

Quote:
I will buy MorphOS once the license is not tied to hardware - heck, if that happens, I'll gladly buy 5 licenses.


I guess if the license would not be tied to hardware then any Joe Average could as well just buy one and use it with his 5 computers.

Why does the licensing scheme intimidate you? If your hardware dies you can transfer your key to another one free of charge. If you plan to sell it then the MorphOS key will be another asset for the buyer.

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amigadave 
Re: Public Release of MorphOS 3.12
Posted on 7-Oct-2019 17:55:56
#48 ]
Team Member
Joined: 18-Jul-2005
Posts: 1551
From: Lake Shastina, Northern Calif.

@Skateman

Quote:

Skateman wrote:
@ASiegel

I would love to buy a copy for my X5000. But like mentioned by others.... i would love to have support for the Graphics card that came with the X5000. (in my case an R7 250)

As having used morphos in the past.... (like 8 years ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hfhc-XlO5jA&t=5s i want to have some 3D acceleration)

Quake3 yes please



Work progresses on currently unsupported video cards, but AFAIK, manpower, and time available is the limiting factor. I'm guessing that because video card support is different on MorphOS compared to other systems that run on an X5000, support for certain video cards while running a different OS on the X5000 has absolutely nothing to do with what video cards might be supported by MorphOS in the near future. I do know that the work being done for video card support for MorphOS is exhaustive and seems to me to be progressing through older Radeon HD cards, on its way toward support for the newer Radeon HD video cards. Unfortunately this means a longer wait to get support for the latest Radeon video cards, because the person doing the work does not appear to be interested in skipping over generations of GPU's, to get to the Southern Islands GPU cards, but I might be wrong. This is just a guess on my part from tiny fragments of video card discussions I have seen here and there on forums, not direct communications with the MorphOS Dev. Team, on any member working on such video card support.

In other words, I understand the desire to have support for the most common video cards that were delivered with X5000 systems, but MorphOS video card support does not appear to be progressing in a non-linear way that will have support for later video cards, and skipping over earlier video cards. Perhaps this is the way the person(s) working on MorphOS video card support learn to support later cards, but I don't know. Don't take any of this as fact, it is just my guess as to what MIGHT be happening, and why we don't yet have support in MorphOS3.12 for the Radeon HD 7750, HD 7770, or HD R250.

Donations to the developers working on MorphOS video card support are always welcome, but there is no guarantee that more money will speed up support for the video cards you want supported. I think that time is more of the limiting factor, unless we can find more talented device driver programmers, who can join the MorphOS Dev. Team, and they can speed up the development process of supporting more and newer video cards.

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Skateman 
Re: Public Release of MorphOS 3.12
Posted on 7-Oct-2019 18:58:46
#49 ]
Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2017
Posts: 88
From: Netherlands

@amigadave

I agree, and understand that the complexity of drivers, and in particular videocard drivers is huge.
Then again, most AmigaOne X5000 machines where shipped with the R7 / 7700 range of videocards and people buying these setups are willing to spend some money on both hard and software.

Morphos is very welcome but needs to support the machine as it was sold. So with an included AMD Southern Island driver. I dont know how different the architecture of Morphos is compared to Amiga OS4.x, but getting in touch with Hans de Ruiter could be a step forward.

Besides Morphos, the same graphics driver issues appear with Linux. Linux has 2D support but no 3D support for the Southern Island based cards. I can live with that as having OS4.1FE as the weapon of choice and not having to swap videocards.

It would be fantastic to be able to run Morphos Linux and OS4.1FE on my X5K.
PS ... I did buy a XT 1950 PRO 512 mb just in case.....

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Zylesea 
Re: Public Release of MorphOS 3.12
Posted on 7-Oct-2019 21:27:36
#50 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2159
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@recedent

Quote:

recedent wrote:
@kolla

Quote:
I will buy MorphOS once the license is not tied to hardware - heck, if that happens, I'll gladly buy 5 licenses.


I guess if the license would not be tied to hardware then any Joe Average could as well just buy one and use it with his 5 computers.

Why does the licensing scheme intimidate you? If your hardware dies you can transfer your key to another one free of charge. If you plan to sell it then the MorphOS key will be another asset for the buyer.


Because kolla decided a good ten years ago that the hardware bound licensing is straight out of hell and principles must not changed!
Well, each to his own.

I mean, honestly, when the hardware bound key was introduced with 2.0 I also wasn't jumping around hooraying and shouting "yeah - this licensing scheme it the hot shˇt!" but soon after I just decided to buy the license. When was 2.0 released? It was 2008! Now, more than 10 years and 19 free updates later I still have fun with that. And with each release I read the same comments of ppl like Kolla (don't meant too personal, but a bit still). Some ppl just _want to_ complain...
Well, ppl are that way - and it's kind of good. if we were all the same it would be probably easy, but also boring.

Last edited by Zylesea on 07-Oct-2019 at 09:33 PM.

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amigadave 
Re: Public Release of MorphOS 3.12
Posted on 8-Oct-2019 1:24:31
#51 ]
Team Member
Joined: 18-Jul-2005
Posts: 1551
From: Lake Shastina, Northern Calif.

@Skateman

Quote:

Skateman wrote:
@amigadave

I agree, and understand that the complexity of drivers, and in particular videocard drivers is huge.
Then again, most AmigaOne X5000 machines where shipped with the R7 / 7700 range of videocards and people buying these setups are willing to spend some money on both hard and software.

Morphos is very welcome but needs to support the machine as it was sold. So with an included AMD Southern Island driver. I dont know how different the architecture of Morphos is compared to Amiga OS4.x, but getting in touch with Hans de Ruiter could be a step forward.

Besides Morphos, the same graphics driver issues appear with Linux. Linux has 2D support but no 3D support for the Southern Island based cards. I can live with that as having OS4.1FE as the weapon of choice and not having to swap videocards.

It would be fantastic to be able to run Morphos Linux and OS4.1FE on my X5K.
PS ... I did buy a XT 1950 PRO 512 mb just in case.....


You must remember that many X5000 main boards were sold, and maybe a couple were donated for development purposes, without any video card provided. Also, different video cards have been provided in full systems that have been sold, so which video card should have the MorphOS Dev. Team supported? Asking for all of the possible video cards that have ever been sold with an X5000 system is IMHO unreasonable, and video card driver work for a card that could be installed into an X5000 probably started before the X5000 was officially available for sale to the public. I'll bet that not even every X5000 beta tester had the same video card, when they first received their X5000 system, but maybe they did.

As for asking Hans de Ruiter for assistance with the MorphOS video card driver, I think that the Picasso96 drivers and Nova HD drivers that work for AmigaOS4, are so different than the CyberGraphx drivers for MorphOS, that Hans could not offer much, if any help to the MorphOS Dev. Team members working on video card drivers. Again, I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Lastly, it has never been an easy thing for any AmigaOS4 and MorphOS developers to share ANYTHING, due to all the past "bad blood" between the two competing groups, and particularly between MorphOS developers and Hyperion's main owner.

It would be great if Hans de Ruiter and the MorphOS Dev. Team could work together on video card drivers, and graphic's system software for both MorphOS and AmgiaOS4, but I seriously doubt that it will ever happen, even if it were physically possible. Personally, I think it is like trying to mix oil and water, or blending fire and ice.

In the mean time, the MorphOS Dev. Team decided to support the X5000 owners who wanted to run MorphOS, not the owners who are primarily interested in AmigaOS4, and only want to run MorphOS occasionally to see what it has to offer that is different than AmigaOS4. The MorphOS Dev. Team never intended to provide support for the X5000 so that dual booting could be done easily. They wanted to support a machine that is currently available "new" from retail outlets, as well as all of the many used Mac PPC systems that are already supported. I hope this clears up any confusion regarding video card support by the MorphOS Dev. Team. I am not speaking for them, but believe that I have a pretty good understanding of what and why they are supporting the video cards that are currently supported. Sorry it is not the answer that many of you would want to read.

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kolla 
Re: Public Release of MorphOS 3.12
Posted on 8-Oct-2019 4:28:27
#52 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1315
From: Trondheim, Norway

@recedent

Quote:

recedent wrote:
@kolla

Quote:
I will buy MorphOS once the license is not tied to hardware - heck, if that happens, I'll gladly buy 5 licenses.


I guess if the license would not be tied to hardware then any Joe Average could as well just buy one and use it with his 5 computers.


Yes, because you just cannot trust people. Just look at a certain other forum, where a "team member" suggests people should buy the OS 3.1.4 variant that fits the majority of systems they own. MorphOS users are of course the very same breed.

Quote:
Why does the licensing scheme intimidate you? If your hardware dies you can transfer your key to another one free of charge. If you plan to sell it then the MorphOS key will be another asset for the buyer.

"Intimidate" me? It just doesn't fit my reality - hardware doesn't just die, and I don't just sell hardware. I still have all the same systems today that I had when this hardware-entanglement was introduced, and they are all still working and being used. And they accumulate. Just a couple of weeks ago, a SAM460 joined the crowd. So, a pegasos, a good handfull of mac minis in various configurations, a couple of G5s, 3 powerbooks, and now a SAM460, and who knows what later. Why should I have to decide exactly which systems I should "forever" dedicate for MorphOS, and which not to? Nah, f... that.

Last edited by kolla on 08-Oct-2019 at 04:28 AM.

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Rockstaratemyhamster 
Re: Public Release of MorphOS 3.12
Posted on 8-Oct-2019 5:41:49
#53 ]
Member
Joined: 4-Oct-2019
Posts: 21
From: Waterbury,CT

@amigadave

Quote:
Team decided to support the X5000 owners who wanted to run MorphOS, not the owners who are primarily interested in AmigaOS4, and only want to run MorphOS occasionally to see what it has to offer that is different than AmigaOS4.


Rather than inflame, it’s probably better to understand why an X5000 owner would have purchased their machine and how they actually use their machine. Someone who buys an X5000 machine will want to use MorphOS more than just “occasionally”. We are not kicking up a fuss here for nothing. I can personally name a few reasons why I would like to use MorphOS more on my X5000: An updated internet browser, Iris email client, support for Xbox One and PS4 controllers, a better way to play PC Engine games😉. Don’t get me wrong the MacMini G4 is nice, but it’s short on RAM and is quite long in the tooth now.

An X5000 owner also appreciates OS4 developments such as Warp3DNova and and OpenGLES 2 would like to support these developments by keeping a card in their machine that helps support their development.

X5000,like Sam460 users, are also likely to have a Linux distribution or several Linux distributions installed on their machines too. The things I appreciate are things missing from MorphOS and AmigaOS like Libre Office. Good things are happening with Fienix and yes our graphics cards don’t fully support the OS and lack hardware acceleration, but at least we can run it and support the platform and its development.


As I see it X5000 and Sam460 owners are being asked to make a very binary choice at present when it comes to MorphOS, when their setups have the potential to support and bring people together and bring more people on board. Support is something that should offered and extended, especially when your eco-systems are crying out for new users.

Failing that, all sides are going to have to give up their respective Power PC projects and port everything to a Raspberry Pi in order to survive. The reality is your markets are too small and too fragmented as they stand for you to keep working in your own individual silos.

So instead of defending positions, let’s talk what are the problems that are preventing the support of Radeon SI cards on MorphOS, what solutions can be found and collectively how can we reach a solution that benefits the whole community?

Last edited by Rockstaratemyhamster on 08-Oct-2019 at 05:58 AM.
Last edited by Rockstaratemyhamster on 08-Oct-2019 at 05:54 AM.

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amigadave 
Re: Public Release of MorphOS 3.12
Posted on 8-Oct-2019 10:14:23
#54 ]
Team Member
Joined: 18-Jul-2005
Posts: 1551
From: Lake Shastina, Northern Calif.

@Rockstaratemyhamster

I just took a new look at the vast number of video cards that ARE supported, and partially supported, by the MorphOS Dev. Team, on their hardware compatibility list. Have you looked lately?

I also thought that my answers described fairly accurately that work is ongoing to support even more video cards, which will probably include the Radeon SI video cards that you are asking to be supported, but of course in traditional MorphOS Dev. Team fashion, no due dates are given out, so we will not know when support of Radeon SI video cards will be released for MorphOS, and the X5000.

I certainly am not trying to sound divisive, or combative, I was just trying to explain the situation, AS I SEE IT. I perhaps was not very clear about the fact that I believe that work on the specific Radeon SI video cards mentioned by you and other X5000 owners is probably going on as I type this, but I have no reason to believe that such video cards are being excluded by the MorphOS Dev. Team. If there is a technical reason why support of those video cards is taking more time by the MorphOS Dev. Team members, I am not personally aware of it. As I have stated already, all of these opinions of mine are solely based on fragments of forum messages I have read over the months and years, and not by any actual direct communication with the developers doing the work. I think you can look at the very long list of currently supported MorphOS video cards, and if you could look at the history of the support as it grew, you would see why my opinion is as it is, and why I am confident that support for the video cards many X5000 owners are asking for, will someday be completed. When it is just one or two guys doing all of the video card driver work (in their spare time and for free), it takes time. At least Hans de Ruiter is making some money for the video card driver work he is doing.

As for everyone working together, it is a nice dream, and I would love to see it happen, but knowing a lot of the history, and how the two OSes have grown so far apart from each other in how they work, I can't really see it happening, ever. So, although is may seem like I am defending my posts, I am just trying to offer information, as I see it.

Edit: Regarding your comments on why an X5000 owner would want to run MorphOS, as well as AmigaOS4,I understand that it is one of the few reasons to pay so much for an X5000, when very similar performance can be had by buying a G5 PowerMac at a fraction of the cost, if the owner only wanted to run MorphOS alone. As I said in my first post in this thread, I understand the desire for X5000 owners to want video card support for a single video card that provides as many features and speed on both OSes, and Linux as well. Unfortunately, we simply don't have support for the specific video cards you want in MorphOS yet, and the developer working on it appears to be working in a linear way which has not yet included Southern Islands cards, but I'm sure it will come sooner, rather than later. I have not read or heard anything that would make me believe that support for the Southern Islands video cards is NOT going to happen for technical reasons. Sorry I can't offer anything other than to say be patient, and wait.

Last edited by amigadave on 08-Oct-2019 at 10:29 AM.

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ASiegel 
Re: Public Release of MorphOS 3.12
Posted on 8-Oct-2019 12:53:34
#55 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2013
Posts: 185
From: Unknown

@amigadave

Quote:
Don't take any of this as fact, it is just my guess as to what MIGHT be happening, and why we don't yet have support in MorphOS3.12 for the Radeon HD 7750, HD 7770, or HD R250.

Quote:
I also thought that my answers described fairly accurately that work is ongoing to support even more video cards, which will probably include the Radeon SI video cards that you are asking to be supporte


I know you mean well but nobody has promised that future release of MorphOS 3.x will add support for any additional graphics cards. Please note that no new cards have been added between 2018 and 2019.

Anybody interested in trying out MorphOS is kindly asked to buy hardware that is listed as compatible on the official MorphOS website. Period.

It would be a mistake to suggest that users just need to be patient and should postpone testing MorphOS. They should buy compatible hardware instead and enjoy what is actually available today.


Quote:
I certainly am not trying to sound divisive, or combative

You were being perfectly civil but you must also be aware by now that you are responding to a troll.

The person you are replying to specifically opened a brand new user account in order to then...

1. take offense to something as "controversial" as expressing the idea that interested users are recommended to buy hardware that is officially supported by an OS rather than wait for incompatible hardware to maybe (but more likely never) be supported one day;

2. make vague accusations regarding supposed "misbehaviour" on a forum without providing any sources;

3. reply with an absurd unfounded conspiracy theory about removed posts when someone dares to ask for sources so the accusations can be properly addressed;

4. complain that he is not being taken serious enough and advise everyone to draw their own conclusions from how badly he was treated on AmigaWorld.

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Rockstaratemyhamster 
Re: Public Release of MorphOS 3.12
Posted on 8-Oct-2019 14:27:42
#56 ]
Member
Joined: 4-Oct-2019
Posts: 21
From: Waterbury,CT

@amigadave

Thank you for taking the time to engage in a constructive and informative manner on the current scenario, it certainly makes a refreshing change from what I have heard thus far in particular from the subsequent poster who wrongly assumes that I am a troll. I am a MorphOS user and I have paid two licences to support a system, where I am now on the receiving end of some quite unnecessary personal abuse.

X5000 owners indeed have been patient and will continue to be and yes I am aware of the numerous alternative graphic card support options currently available and people like Mark Olsen have worked hard with the limited support and resources available. I have been impressed thus far with the operating system, and maybe one day we will be rewarded with such support.

I am aware that you cannot speak in an official capacity in regards to MorphOS matters, but your comments deserve respect and you are indeed one of the few positive advocates for the platform. I am aware that you are due to present your system at the upcoming AmiWest show later this month and hope that your presentation goes well and inspires others to get to know a system that can complement AmigaOS. Our community desperately needs more positive advocates and voices and an end to this silo within a silo mentality.

Sadly for those attending Amiga 34, I fear visitors to the MorphOS stand will not be getting such an engaging and constructive tone based on the comments of a certain divisive individual whose attitude will only seek in driving away an ever smaller user base.

Be respectful of the people who come to visit you this weekend, these people pay for a MorphOS system, they choose to support your system and are advocates for it when others mock you for supporting a dead platform, they tolerate all the gripes, bugs and missing features because they too are passionate about the Amiga platform. Please engage with them.

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recedent 
Re: Public Release of MorphOS 3.12
Posted on 8-Oct-2019 14:48:56
#57 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Jan-2010
Posts: 222
From: Tarnów

@kolla

Quote:
I will buy MorphOS once the license is not tied to hardware - heck, if that happens, I'll gladly buy 5 licenses


Quote:
a pegasos, a good handfull of mac minis in various configurations, a couple of G5s, 3 powerbooks, and now a SAM460, and who knows what later. Why should I have to decide exactly which systems I should "forever" dedicate for MorphOS, and which not to? Nah, f... that.


Well, if you're really ready to buy 5 licenses then there will be one for Pegasos, one for your favourite Mini, one for your best PowerBook, one for the fastest G5, and one for SAM460. I believe there are no hard choices to make here, especially that your computers don't seem to die and you wish to keep them.

Last edited by recedent on 08-Oct-2019 at 02:49 PM.

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geit 
Re: Public Release of MorphOS 3.12
Posted on 9-Oct-2019 11:21:55
#58 ]
Member
Joined: 20-May-2006
Posts: 93
From: Germany

@kolla

Quote:
Why should I have to decide exactly which systems I should "forever" dedicate for MorphOS, and which not to? Nah, f... that.


Quote:
I will buy MorphOS once the license is not tied to hardware - heck, if that happens, I'll gladly buy 5 licenses.


So what now? You would buy a licence for 5 systems when the key would not be locked to the hardware, but it is a problem to decide for which ones? You can sell the keys along with the hardware and you can get a replacement key if hardware breaks.

Where exactly is the limitation you are riding on for years?

You are obviously interested in MorphOS, but clearly don´t want to use it for longer than 30 minutes per session.

There is one simple solution for that: Since you seem to be an active user and the last what 10 years of using MorphOS unregistered weren´t a problem simply keep it that way. Actually it is quiet clever. Instead of paying 150 Euro for a single licence back then, you could get it now for a faction of the price. Wait another 10 years and you may get it for 9,99. A solution that works for me with other stuff like video games for years.

Good thing any OS4 board comes with OS4 "for free", so for just 1xxx - 2xxx Euro you get a free matching OS licence as well. So if your Sam460 dies there is a simple and easy solution as well.

No one is forcing you to buy anything. You can try MorphOS as long as you wish and register it, when it fits your needs. That is the point of the MorphOS demo after all. You can play with MorphOS at a starting point of around 30 Euro if you are lucky. Registration fee of what 50 euro and up is optional.

So if you want to continue to use MorphOS noone will blame you. Well, beside people who want to convert you for some reason, but they are everywhere with every hobby.


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bennymee 
Re: Public Release of MorphOS 3.12
Posted on 9-Oct-2019 11:32:45
#59 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 549
From: Netherlands

@geit

Well said :)

Are you the author of Simplecat ? i send you several emails, did you got them ?

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kolla 
Re: Public Release of MorphOS 3.12
Posted on 9-Oct-2019 12:33:10
#60 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1315
From: Trondheim, Norway

Aww, you guys...

It’s really very simple, as I said initially - the licensing scheme does not fit my liking, hence I do not buy it. If it did fit, I would buy. I do not feel like I am loosing out on anything, and the MorphOS team only miss out on a few hundred euros. Probably well worth it, since I am such an annoying user :)

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