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      /  Amiga hardware poll
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Poll : What should happen to Amiga hardware?
Develop cheap 68k SoC for embedded, toys/games, retro, hobby
Develop expensive PPC SoC for desktop, laptop
POWER for desktop AmigaOS (no SMP or 64 bit addressing)
POWER for desktop with redesigned & incompatible AmigaOS
No more embarrassing Amiga hardware!
No opinion or pancakes
 
PosterThread
Lou 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 22-Jun-2020 18:17:31
#61 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4035
From: Rhode Island

Who creates a poll with no Raspberry Pi 4 option?

Oh I get it - it might win...

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ferrels 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 22-Jun-2020 18:20:35
#62 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 849
From: Arizona

@Raffaele

Quote:
Cross compilers do already exist and output code for any architecture..


Then your next step is to contact Hyperion and convince them to start porting OS4 to ARM. Good luck with that.

And even if Hyperion did port OS4 to ARM, who would really care? OS4 on ARM would still suffer from all the same problems it has on PPC processors....no multi-core/SMP support, no memory protection, no process separation, no multi-user support, no modern web browser, no modern office suite, and lastly, it would have no GPU hardware acceleration until someone like Hans de Ruiter writes a HAL for Mali graphics acceleration and he doesn't work for free and neither would any other programmers who are good enough at their trade to port OS4 to ARM. Someone would also have to write drivers for ethernet, WiFi, and mass storage. Someone will also need to port/re-write all the OS4/PPC specific assembly language code to ARM assembly code as well, and no cross-compiler does that.

So open your wallet and offer to pay the salaries of those coders while you're negotiating with Hyperion for an ARM release of OS4. All the same can be said for OS3 as well.

Last edited by ferrels on 22-Jun-2020 at 06:40 PM.
Last edited by ferrels on 22-Jun-2020 at 06:38 PM.

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fishy_fis 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 22-Jun-2020 18:21:35
#63 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1905
From: Australia

@Raffaele

Quote:
Cross compilers do already exist and output code for any architecture


Interesting thing to tell someone who knows this stuff 100x better than you (Hypex).

Given what he actually wrote it seems you're advertising this fact without realizing it.

Notice how he mentions asm?
Can't cross compile code written in asm for a specific ISA.

I'd point out the other faults in what you've written, but you clearly wouldnt understand anyway.

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Raffaele 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 22-Jun-2020 19:25:58
#64 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1905
From: Naples, Italy

@fishy_fis

Actually PowerPC is the most recent created technology. It has been created (1990) after Intel X86 (1978) and ARM (1983)... Only Architecture Amd64 is of 1999...

Cortex CPUs are only ARM System on Chip and with a GPU sub unit.

Intel Core Architecture is an evolution of the old Centrino with Wide Dynamic Instruction to enhance processing more instruction per clock cycling, advanced media instructions that are not onlyan evolution of MMX at 128bit in 4 vectors of 32 bit (THE SAME SOLUTION USED IN POWERPC ALTIVEC), a smart cache and smart memory management, nothing more, nothing else...

So please do not call OBSOLETE the PowerPC Architecture.!

At least you can call it UNDERDEVELOPED as desktop computing, but as long as it evolved in Power10 architecture for Servers, your statement is utter nonsense...

And perhaps your attitude of thinking as a user of a loser platform matches perfectly my previous discussion about the loss of Amiga philosophy of power thru semplicity that affects the users of this platform.

Amiga is power thru simplicity, ease of use and the user keeping total control of the machine.

We must find again how to enforce this philosophy. It does not matter the architecture PowerPC, Intel Core, AMD64 or ARM + Cortex.

But in the meanwhile we must achieve a new 64 bit kernel, multithreading, multiuser capabilities, and it is only thru PowerPC that we will reach this goal in the shortest time.

Then after the development on PowerPC, we could think how to start porting the new advanced Amiga environment on other architectures.

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

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ferrels 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 22-Jun-2020 20:06:01
#65 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 849
From: Arizona

@Raffaele

Quote:
Actually PowerPC is the most recent created technology. It has been created (1990) after Intel X86 (1978) and ARM (1983)... Only Architecture Amd64 is of 1999...

Cortex CPUs are only ARM System on Chip and with a GPU sub unit.

We must find again how to enforce this philosophy.
So please do not call OBSOLETE the PowerPC Architecture.!


Enforce a philosophy? Are you some sort of new-age Italian fascist?

Your post is so full of errors and misinformation that I don't even know where to begin. Let's start first with your comment about Cortex CPU's simply being a CPU with a GPU sub-component. Are you implying that if OS4 was ported to ARM that we could just skip the integrated GPU and go with a discrete Radeon GPU? Who is going to write the bus logic and design the PCI/PCI-E interface to tie a Radeon card to the Cortex CPU? Who is going to write the drivers and pay the developers for such an effort? You can't just simply re-compile the existing OS4 PPC Radeon drivers for an ARM target.

As for moving forward on PPC, where do you propose we even obtain new PPC CPU's? The only new PPC CPU's being produced are either woefully under powered chips designed for embedded applications or stupidly expensive chips for server applications that can't even match performance of Intel offerings from nearly a decade ago.

I won't even go any further to address any of your other comments because you're either delusional, been hiding in a cave for the past 30 years, or intentionally spreading misinformation.

BTW, PPC has been obsolete for years which is why it is no longer used in mainstream computing applications. Just because something is recent doesn't mean that it can't be obsolete.

Last edited by ferrels on 22-Jun-2020 at 08:30 PM.
Last edited by ferrels on 22-Jun-2020 at 08:27 PM.
Last edited by ferrels on 22-Jun-2020 at 08:21 PM.
Last edited by ferrels on 22-Jun-2020 at 08:18 PM.
Last edited by ferrels on 22-Jun-2020 at 08:16 PM.

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fishy_fis 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 22-Jun-2020 20:34:08
#66 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1905
From: Australia

@Raffaele

Wow.
Its impressive how wrong and delusional you are.
Firstly, Core and Core 2, Centrino, etc. are an evolution of the p3.
Current core i3/i5/i7/i9 are a different microarch.
Also, what is the point in comparing retro pcs to current ppc implementations?
Rhetoric of course.... you obviously did it so ppc can appear to be anything but obsolete. If you compared it to current solutions ppc would look even more pathetic than it is, so you instead bring up retropcs..... it's very transparent and you only make ppc look worse by doing it.
Also,..... hilarious omissions of the more powerful simd extensions. AVX2 is 512bits for eg....... A far, far cry from old, subpar extensions like altivec, which was nice for 20 years ago, but very much shows the fact its decades old now.
You really are a moron arent you? I suspect you're too stupid to even understand that basic question/insult based or your batshit crazy posts.


You really have no idea how clueless and idiotic, and frankly, outright delusional you are to anyone with an iota of a clue do you?

Its also insane and pathetic how you get all protective and defensive over a freaking ISA.

You're the worst sort of Amiga fan. The sort that clings onto a delusion and runs with it, then spreads and repeats bullshit over and over again based on those delusions.

Personally I'd prefer to see the pltform move forward and evolve. People like you would prefer to see it held back just so you can hold onto the delusions.

People like you are the reason its a dead platform. Sane people despise the bullshit you spew, which makes them lose interest in the platform, then move on.
No-one wants to hang out at asylums hoping to make a few dollars, yet you and your kind are basically holding up big neon signs advertising insanity..... good job. You and your kind are making sure it stays dead, yet too stupid to see it.

Last edited by fishy_fis on 22-Jun-2020 at 08:52 PM.
Last edited by fishy_fis on 22-Jun-2020 at 08:50 PM.
Last edited by fishy_fis on 22-Jun-2020 at 08:47 PM.
Last edited by fishy_fis on 22-Jun-2020 at 08:45 PM.
Last edited by fishy_fis on 22-Jun-2020 at 08:38 PM.
Last edited by fishy_fis on 22-Jun-2020 at 08:37 PM.

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ferrels 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 22-Jun-2020 20:57:31
#67 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 849
From: Arizona




Last edited by ferrels on 22-Jun-2020 at 09:09 PM.
Last edited by ferrels on 22-Jun-2020 at 09:07 PM.

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1Mouse 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 22-Jun-2020 21:05:52
#68 ]
Super Member
Joined: 23-Jun-2005
Posts: 1337
From: Bradford, West Yorkshire

@Hypex

Be quicker than waiting for the next iteration of Amiga Hardware/AmigaOS combo

_________________
1 AmigaOne G4XE (OS4 Pre-Release Update4)
Minimig
Sam440ep + OS4.1FE
Sam460cr + OS4.1FE

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bison 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 22-Jun-2020 22:25:44
#69 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1643
From: N-Space

@Templario

Quote:
If Apple is thinking go to ARM, why Amiga not?

Apple just went past the thinking stage.

Apple announces Mac transition to Apple silicon

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

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Fl@sh 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 22-Jun-2020 22:27:45
#70 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2004
Posts: 163
From: Napoli - Italy

Power9 is really a big beast and is comparable to amd opteron and intel xeon in hi end servers.
It’s present also in a relatively low cost blackbird raptor desktop, ..yeah another PowerPC open-source project. But this time it’s real and on sale with Linux perfectly running on it!
PowerPC isa is one of the best created and, as Raffaele said, it’s newer than widespread others.
Due scale economy it’s under developed, but absolutely not weaker than others. In on paper it can compete with latest x86 and arm cores. In next months will be presented power10 so stay tuned and watch performances tests..
There isn’t any mandatory order to switch from ppc to other archs, not now.
Consider that with a new execsg some PowerPC configs like x5000 can double the power. The limit on any new OS4 (current or next) hardware is represented from software coming back from 2 decades ago.
As said before there are a lot of things to do to port os4 on any other cpu, so maybe no one of us will ever use such port, considering amiga timing to do things..

In the end I would suggest anyone to be careful prior to attribute a guy with fascist term, I Know Raffaele and I can assure you are totally wrong.
Much better leave politics in respective own country and don’t speak about racism and police attitudes..



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Raffaele 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 22-Jun-2020 23:13:20
#71 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1905
From: Naples, Italy

@ferrels

Quote:

ferrels wrote:

Enforce a philosophy? Are you some sort of new-age Italian fascist?



Call me a fascist it is a terrible offense. Consider you insulted me with your insensible childish behaviour. You don't know what fascism did to my country including a civil war. Bye.

No excuses will be accepted...

Last edited by Raffaele on 22-Jun-2020 at 11:19 PM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 22-Jun-2020 at 11:17 PM.

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

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Raffaele 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 22-Jun-2020 23:15:27
#72 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1905
From: Naples, Italy

@fishy_fis

Quote:

fishy_fis wrote:
@Raffaele

Quote:
Cross compilers do already exist and output code for any architecture


Interesting thing to tell someone who knows this stuff 100x better than you (Hypex).


As long as he knows, why he put this priority amongst the points he proposed? That's nonsense.

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

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BigD 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 22-Jun-2020 23:23:51
#73 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5379
From: UK

@bison

Quote:

bison wrote:
@Templario

Quote:
If Apple is thinking go to ARM, why Amiga not?

Apple just went past the thinking stage.

Apple announces Mac transition to Apple silicon


I'm officially out once my current Mac dies! BootCamp is the ONLY killer app left on macOS IMHO. Playing Streets of Rage 4 and Sonic Mania has extended my use of my laptop to include entertaining my children and allowing me to skip the overrated PS4 console generation.

Roll on the PS5 with 4K disc drive and I guess an Alienware / Asus PC laptop in the future. I've already converted over to Premiere Pro and quite frankly the OpenGL shenanigans had already convinced me the Apple had lost the plot with their Mac computers. Good luck building a competitive Mac Pro power house with an Arm processor!

A massive joke and the end of an era! Coffee shop computers just got a bigger profit margin courtesy of vertical integration! Three cheers for the greediest company in consumer electronics!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

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OneTimer1 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 22-Jun-2020 23:36:17
#74 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 602
From: Unknown

@1Mouse

Quote:

1Mouse wrote:
How about AmigaOS 4.x running on an ARM powered laptop?

If Apple can move over to ARM processors why can't Amiga?


AmigaOS4 is a legal mess, the problematic ownership of IP and its small user base will prevent it moving in any direction.

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matthey 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 23-Jun-2020 0:04:12
#75 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 765
From: Kansas

@fishy_fis
If I was a moderator, I would warn you about personal attacks. Going off on people isn't going to help. I hope this thread doesn't degenerate into back and forth insults.

Quote:

Raffaele wrote:
Actually PowerPC is the most recent created technology. It has been created (1990) after Intel X86 (1978) and ARM (1983)... Only Architecture Amd64 is of 1999...


ARM Thumb2 and AArch64 ISAs can be implemented in CPU cores by themselves. Therefor, these new ISAs should receive the date of their creation. Newer isn't always better. Each ISA has its strengths and weaknesses. If it was just about newest then AArch64 and RISC-V would be the best.

Quote:

Cortex CPUs are only ARM System on Chip and with a GPU sub unit.


ARM Holdings has a wide variety of cores with many options ready to go into a custom SoC. ARM cores have been steadily improving and usually surpass PPC and RISC-V cores in performance while maintaining competitive energy efficiency. It doesn't get any easier than ARM Holdings cores and costs are reasonable because they own most of the huge embedded market.

Quote:

Intel Core Architecture is an evolution of the old Centrino with Wide Dynamic Instruction to enhance processing more instruction per clock cycling, advanced media instructions that are not onlyan evolution of MMX at 128bit in 4 vectors of 32 bit (THE SAME SOLUTION USED IN POWERPC ALTIVEC), a smart cache and smart memory management, nothing more, nothing else...


SIMD units are only used a small proportion of the time but they can give a large performance boost for memory streaming calculations. x86_64 SIMD units have developed to be much more powerful than Altivec/VMX but they take considerable hardware support and area making low end implementations challenging.

Quote:

So please do not call OBSOLETE the PowerPC Architecture.!


The PowerPC ISA will never be obsolete as it has proven to be an adequate general purpose ISA. If nobody is making new chips with PPC cores, the PPC chips will become obsolete due to lack of availability and outdated processes. Die size shrinking is slowing and becoming more expensive with Moore's Law coming to an end so this will not happen as fast as it did for the 68k.

Quote:

At least you can call it UNDERDEVELOPED as desktop computing, but as long as it evolved in Power10 architecture for Servers, your statement is utter nonsense...

And perhaps your attitude of thinking as a user of a loser platform matches perfectly my previous discussion about the loss of Amiga philosophy of power thru semplicity that affects the users of this platform.

Amiga is power thru simplicity, ease of use and the user keeping total control of the machine.


Few PowerPC CPUs were aimed only for the desktop. There was a realization that PC mass production was a monster and that PowerPC chips would need to sell into the embedded market to increase volumes (where PPC was not as well suited as the 68k). PPC chips did use state of the art die sizes competitive with Intel for awhile. PPC chips from Motorola/Freescale suffered from "simple" shallow pipeline designs which limited the ability to clock them up to compete with x86/x86_64. The most respected name in CPU design, IBM, stepped up and created the PPC 970 (G5) which was clearly intended for the desktop. Performance was disappointing and energy efficiency was poor.

The Amiga philosophy wasn't always about simplicity. The first Macintosh and Atari ST had simpler hardware than the Amiga. The AmigaOS with preemptive multitasking was more complex than most simpler OSs of the day. Yet, ease of use did seem to be a philosophy of the Amiga starting with the friendly name.

Quote:

We must find again how to enforce this philosophy. It does not matter the architecture PowerPC, Intel Core, AMD64 or ARM + Cortex.

But in the meanwhile we must achieve a new 64 bit kernel, multithreading, multiuser capabilities, and it is only thru PowerPC that we will reach this goal in the shortest time.

Then after the development on PowerPC, we could think how to start porting the new advanced Amiga environment on other architectures.


PowerPC would be one of the fastest to modernize for but after breaking compatibility, and by the time the work is done, there may not be much hardware to run it on. POWER makes more sense looking at future availability of chips but Amiga cost will increase (beyond what most Amiga users will pay), embedded and even laptop applications will not be possible and there will be little software after breaking compatibility and having such a small user base. Affordable entry level mass produced products are needed if there is any chance to increase the Amiga user base. I don't see how this will happen with POWER or PPC alone.

Last edited by matthey on 23-Jun-2020 at 12:04 AM.

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ferrels 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 23-Jun-2020 0:20:17
#76 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 849
From: Arizona

@Raffaele

Quote:
by Raffaele on 22-Jun-2020 16:13:20

@ferrels

Quote:

ferrels wrote:

Enforce a philosophy? Are you some sort of new-age Italian fascist?



Call me a fascist it is a terrible offense. Consider you insulted me with your insensible childish behaviour. You don't know what fascism did to my country including a civil war. Bye.

No excuses will be accepted...


I call it like I see it and you're the one saying we need to enforce a philosophy so I don't think you've learned anything in historic regard to fascism. What's next, are you going to suggest we need to enforce a certain religion? Enforce a certain political viewpoint? Enforcing philosophies is the very definition of fascism.

And yes, I know what fascism did to your country just as I know what it did my own home country of Germany which is why it's so easy for me to recognize fascism when I see it.

Last edited by ferrels on 23-Jun-2020 at 12:22 AM.

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Raffaele 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 23-Jun-2020 3:44:22
#77 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1905
From: Naples, Italy

@ferrels

Instead of said stupid things and and accusing others of spreading fascist ideas as long as you were German you should had tought first that English is not my native language and ask me if I used the correct word with "enforce".

That's was more normal behaviour between users I presume...

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

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Raffaele 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 23-Jun-2020 4:06:25
#78 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1905
From: Naples, Italy

@matthey

MorphOS announced porting to AMD64 architecture.

It has been spotted up and running and some people got photos of it.

A solution based on a Barebone Asrock Deskmini A300 was offer in sale or 124€ two days ago on Amazon (normal price 157€).

+ Noctua superslim Cooler Fan 41€

+ CPU Ryzen 5 3400G 4cores 8threads 146€ (today 140€)

+ 8 GB DDR4 RAM 3000 about 40€

+ HD Crucial SSD or M.2 256GB about 44€

For a total of 395€.

(You must include price of MorphOS about 75€)

Complete price for MorphOS AMD64 experience 470€.

That's a very budget solution and it will be a real bargain for us amigans, but still I do not see AMD64 MorphOS getting all around corners in the neighborhood...

Also If AmigaOS camp will start a port to ARM or AMD64 right tomorrow they will not finish in less than 2 years...

Will be MorphOS destiny to overcome any other Amiga solutions?

We will sit and see...

Last edited by Raffaele on 23-Jun-2020 at 04:17 AM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 23-Jun-2020 at 04:14 AM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 23-Jun-2020 at 04:09 AM.

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

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fishy_fis 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 23-Jun-2020 6:41:49
#79 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1905
From: Australia

@matthey

Quote:
If I was a moderator, I would warn you about personal attacks. Going off on people isn't going to help. I hope this thread doesn't degenerate into back and forth insults


But youre not.
And why do you think Id care what you would or wouldnt do?
That idea is as weird as this thread/poll itself.

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BigD 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 23-Jun-2020 9:02:12
#80 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5379
From: UK

@fishy_fis

Even the reporting button seems broken at the moment! Moderation is only missed in its absence

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

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