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geen_naam 
New X5000 system
Posted on 29-Dec-2020 13:28:12
#1 ]
Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2003
Posts: 29
From: The Netherlands

Hello All,

After years of absence, it was time to check on the amiga scene again. I even dusted off my old SAM440-flex 800MHz. Unfortunately it performs much slower than I remembered. (Running Amigaos4.1 update 6).It was a huge upgrade from an A1200+blizzardppc. But it is very slow compared to a phone with a snapdragon 865 .
So time to close the gap a bit and upgrade to a X5000.
Being disconnected with the scene for so long, it is hard to find up to date and complete information of what is needed to get the best system available. The information is outdated and scattered all over the place.
But this is how I understand the situation right now:
- No 64bit or SMP support at the moment (but amigascene.nl news item shows that AOS4.1 FE update 2 adds some kernel preparations for future SMP)
- 3D support is the most complete on a Radeon R7/9 gpu. And use a DDR5 model istead of a DDR3 model.
- >4GB memory is supported through memory paging when software uses this special feature.
- No clear list of supported DDR3 dimms. So better use a pair of kingston fury white modules (HX316C10FW/4) to be safe.
- Enhancer software is available to complement AOS4.1.
- No modern web browser. (So most websites will not work well)
- No office suite

The usual topics are still unresolved/challenged
- Ownership of Amiga brand and Amigaos.
- Developers and users still not united (Amigaos4, MorphOS, AROS, Classic)

But against all logic, I will invest EUR 2000 anyways

This is the list that i intend to buy:
- X5000 motherboard obviously ( includes AmigaOS4.1FE and Enhancer plus)
- 2x HX316C10FW/4 = 8GB DDR3/1600MHz
- Radeon R7 graphics card.

The Radeon R7, except for the slow R7 240, is very hard to get. I noticed a Sapphire Radeon R7 265 Dual-X 2GB for sale. On the hdrlab website from Hans de Ruiter, the R7 265 is listed as a Curaçao Pro card. But AFAIK, this is a Pitcairn Pro chip. So my question is if someone owns this card and can confirm that it works with an X5000?

The other question would be if there are any other pitfalls that I should know before buying the hardware?

Thanks in advance.

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number6 
Re: New X5000 system
Posted on 29-Dec-2020 13:50:43
#2 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 10940
From: In the village

@geen_naam

Quote:
The usual topics are still unresolved/challenged
- Ownership of Amiga brand and Amigaos.


If you mean "the objection" (challenged}, no that changed.

Hyperion withdraws opposition against registration of US trademark 'Amiga'

If you read this you'll understand how this in turns affects the Hyperion filings in the U.S.

Since this filing a number of documents have been exchanged and the decision is currently in the hands of the assigned examiner. stay tuned.

#6

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*Secrecy has served us so well*

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geen_naam 
Re: New X5000 system
Posted on 29-Dec-2020 14:17:34
#3 ]
Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2003
Posts: 29
From: The Netherlands

@number6

OK, let me rephrase: There is still no "Amiga".
No-one seems to be accepted as the company to be in charge and lead the way.
That the amiga brand is now to be registered in the US by some emulation company will not change that.
It will probably open up some new rearguard law suits about using the amiga name. But the amiga name is as relevant as the Sunbeam or Trabant brands today. So I can imagine why Hyperion is not spending any money on it anymore. Especially in the US where there are even fewer users than in europe.

But I could be totally wrong. Like I said, I have been disconnected with the amiga scene for so long that I do not understand its current status anymore.

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bennymee 
Re: New X5000 system
Posted on 29-Dec-2020 14:31:40
#4 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 619
From: Netherlands

@geen_naam

With dual boot MorphOS and Linux is also running on the X5000.


The market is maybe splitted but we had recent updates of AmigaOS4, MorphOS, AmigaOS 3.1.x and problably Aros but don't see it.

Last edited by bennymee on 29-Dec-2020 at 02:34 PM.

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Gregor 
Re: New X5000 system
Posted on 29-Dec-2020 14:36:32
#5 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2011
Posts: 181
From: Unknown

@geen_naam

Some of the current limitations of AmigaOS4.1 can be avoided by using also Linux and MorphOS:

SMP/64bit: In Linux both cores of X5000 are automatically used, and also some 64-bit distros
are working.

Browser: For MOS there is the brand new 'Wayfarer', and for PPC Linuxes (Fienix, Mint) several browsers which work in most respects much better than Odyssey

Office: For Linux there is Libre Office

One pittfall more: There is no up-to-date Mail program (development of Yam and Simplemail has ceased). But again, there are alternatives for Linux and MOS.

But if you do not want to use other OSs than AmigaOS, you can get some help by using AmiCygnix (a X-windows environment for OS4.1) and the programs available for it, e.g. Sylpheed/Claws-mail, AbiWord and Gnumeric). In X5000 AmiCygnix works quite well, if you have chosen the correct display settings.

See more here: https://schwan-clan.de/index.php?lang=en&fr0=AmigaFrameNav.php%3Flang%3Den%26sub%3D0&fr1=amiga%2FAmiCygnix.php%3Flang%3Den

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geen_naam 
Re: New X5000 system
Posted on 29-Dec-2020 14:51:57
#6 ]
Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2003
Posts: 29
From: The Netherlands

@Gregor

My mistake, I should have been more clear.

Maybe I should add that the X5000 will be a hobby machine. I have no intention to replace windows or android for that matter.

The statements about the webbrowser and office suite were just observations. It would have been nice to be able to use it on the amiga but this is not necessary. (I browse the internet with my mobile phone while I sit on my sofa ).

My main concern is now to get a reliable an well supported X5000 system. When I was a teenager, I could only afford the A600. The A1200 and big box amigas were out of my league. Somehow I missed out on the AmigaOnes but I was able to procure an sam440-flex 800MHz. This time around I will buy the "best" while still available. Just because I can now

I've identified the RAM modules and they are still for sale. My main concern is about the graphics card. The information is not up to date and unclear in general. So I have to rely on user experiences. (Is Hans de Ruiter still active? His latest post date back several months).

By "any other pitfalls" I was referring to other hardware components like an SSD, network and audio.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: New X5000 system
Posted on 29-Dec-2020 15:35:46
#7 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11561
From: Norway

@Gregor

Update 2 should solve some of issue with tread safety, that was main problem with the web-browser. It might need some changes here and there, but should be easy now.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 29-Dec-2020 at 03:36 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: New X5000 system
Posted on 29-Dec-2020 16:15:02
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11561
From: Norway

@geen_naam

Quote:
- No clear list of supported DDR3 dimms.


Should be in the hardware specification.

http://wiki.amiga.org/index.php?title=X5000

It says you should use 1600Mhz DDR3 dimms,

Quote:
My main concern is now to get a reliable an well supported X5000 system.


I think the best thing is to buy it new, so don’t get one has electrostatic damage, or some other issue you need to debug.

Quote:
Is Hans de Ruiter still active?


Hans de Ruiter is active.

He mostly post on amigans, but he also some time upload some youtube videos, he some video blogging about his projects, as I understand they are also intended as being advice for developers.

Besides graphic drivers he is working on a FTP server.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 29-Dec-2020 at 04:33 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 29-Dec-2020 at 04:20 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 29-Dec-2020 at 04:17 PM.

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Gregor 
Re: New X5000 system
Posted on 29-Dec-2020 16:39:01
#9 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2011
Posts: 181
From: Unknown

@geen_naam

Quote:

By "any other pitfalls" I was referring to other hardware components like an SSD, network and audio.


Ok... OS4.1 does not have Trim support, so it is safest to choose a SSD model which has been designed to work reliably without it. At least OWC Mercury Electra is such one (e.g. Amiga On the Lake has chosen to sell those for NG Amigas).

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geen_naam 
Re: New X5000 system
Posted on 29-Dec-2020 16:47:04
#10 ]
Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2003
Posts: 29
From: The Netherlands

@Gregor

Ah, that is a huge pitfall. I would have probably bought a samsung SSD. Would the OWC Mercury Electra 6G (3D nand) 250GB work? Don't know what the 6G suffix is supposed to mean. But at least it is available from stores.

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geen_naam 
Re: New X5000 system
Posted on 29-Dec-2020 16:51:38
#11 ]
Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2003
Posts: 29
From: The Netherlands

@NutsAboutAmiga

Yes, it is my intention to buy as much new as possible. Unfortunately that is almost impossible for the graphics card. I spotted a used R7 265 from Sapphire. But because of the chip name confusion (hdrlabs website says Curacao Pro while it is in fact a Pitcairn Pro) I still seek confirmation that this card will work with the RadeonHD driver and Warp3Dnova etc.

Last edited by geen_naam on 29-Dec-2020 at 05:04 PM.

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geen_naam 
Re: New X5000 system
Posted on 29-Dec-2020 17:19:22
#12 ]
Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2003
Posts: 29
From: The Netherlands

@Gregor

Can you be more specific about what will happen when you use other SSD drives with AOS4.1? I see lot's of people using all kinds of SSDs with the X1000, SAM and X5000. But I get no hit when i search for OWC Mercury Electra on this site.

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Gregor 
Re: New X5000 system
Posted on 29-Dec-2020 17:34:21
#13 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2011
Posts: 181
From: Unknown

@geen_naam

Quote:

geen_naam wrote:
@Gregor

Ah, that is a huge pitfall. I would have probably bought a samsung SSD. Would the OWC Mercury Electra 6G (3D nand) 250GB work? Don't know what the 6G suffix is supposed to mean. But at least it is available from stores.


It should... I bought a few weeks ago exactly the same model but has not yet been able to test it as I'm away from my X5000. I use currently a 120 GB 3G Mercury Electra for OS 4.1.

The 6G means that the drive is capable of 'Sata 3' speed (and 3G 'Sata 2', respectively), as most SSDs nowadays do. But the onboard Sata controller of X5000 is only Sata 2, so it cannot take full advantage of a 6G disk - it works at the same speed as a 3G drive.

With Linux you can add a separate Sata 3 controller board and use the full 6G speed (AFAIK, for OS4.1 there are no drivers for any Sata 3 board).

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Gregor 
Re: New X5000 system
Posted on 29-Dec-2020 17:55:21
#14 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2011
Posts: 181
From: Unknown

@geen_naam

Quote:

geen_naam wrote:
@Gregor

Can you be more specific about what will happen when you use other SSD drives with AOS4.1? I see lot's of people using all kinds of SSDs with the X1000, SAM and X5000. But I get no hit when i search for OWC Mercury Electra on this site.


If the 'cleaning system ' of the disk does not work properly, the SSD slows down when the disk gets full, and in worst case it is not anymore possible to write on the disk. Only way out then is to copy the contents to another disk and reformat it.... But also some other SSD brands than OWC may have working 'autocleaning' systems. Leaving a good amount of the disk's storage capacitity unused may help to avoid problems, too.

Before I bought my first SSD for NG-Amiga, I sent a request to the technical supports of several major manufacturers (cannot anymore remember exactly the list), and most of them recommended NOT to use their disks without Trim!

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outrun1978 
Re: New X5000 system
Posted on 29-Dec-2020 19:54:42
#15 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2015
Posts: 587
From: Unknown

@Geen_naam

If you are getting an X5000, for the time being I would get a Radeon 7970 or equivalent rebadged Southern Islands chipset Radeon RX 280/290 second hand as your main graphics card as thats probably your best option for the time being if you wish to experience the whole Amiga OS4.1 experience fully.

You will notice I have a Polaris card in my email signature as I have one in addition to the 7970. The Polaris 12 RX550 card is pretty decent and definitely one you should invest in for the future as mine was easily picked up new for about £40, however you will miss out on any games which require legacy Warp3D and the video playback for the time being isnt as polished as the older cards whilst we await updated drivers.

An SSD is a must, I use a Sandisk 512GB model and touch wood its been reliable and flawless in use.

Other things you may wish to get an Envy 24-HT sound card and a SATA Sil3512 card.
There are only two on board SATA ports on the machine.

As a hobby machine Amiga OS4 will suit if you want to explore OS4 games there are over 200 available in addition to the classic collection of Amiga games, the Run in UAE integration from Workbench feels authentic to the experience you get on an A1200 running WHD Load games.

Emulation of other systems isn't bad either, Final Burn Alpha, Playstation 1, Atari ST, Sam Coupe, Atari 800, Megadrive, SNES. Granted its stuff you will find on a Raspberry Pi/Retropie at a fraction of the cost, but a Raspberry Pi wont run Amiga OS 4 like the X500 will.

Joypads such as a 8Bitdo SFC-30, Logitech F-310 or the Competition Pro all work fine.

Print support is quite decent providing you have a postscript compatible printer.

Web browsing is ok, spoofing as Nintendo Wii or Ipad in the latest Odyssey works. Granted not all websites will render properly and until there is an updated browser, it is what it is.

You can run MorphOS as suggested by others, but trust me things will start to get messy, just by a 2nd hand Mac mini, its easier all round rather than risk poking any rattlesnakes. Short story is that to get the most out of MorphOS you will need to run an ancient Radeon 1950 card on it. With that you will lose any 3D support on Amiga OS and Linux is stuck with an old version of Open GL. Even then don't expect to run everything on MorphOS, even their new browser, which is why I suggest buying a 2nd hand Mac.

You can load Linux too, but again things get messy becuase there is no hardware acceleration when using the suggested graphics card for Amiga OS4 (Radeon 7970/Radeon RX 280/290) As far as this machine is concerned, graphic card support is more advanced on Amiga OS4 on the X5000 than it is on MorphOS or Linux.






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Amiga 1200 Workbench 3.1.4
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geen_naam 
Re: New X5000 system
Posted on 29-Dec-2020 21:37:04
#16 ]
Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2003
Posts: 29
From: The Netherlands

@outrun1978

Thanks for your advise.
I have no interest in running Linux nor Morphos. Just Amigaos.
Sometimes I use Linux at work for development. But the OS itself is still very alien to me.
One drive and maybe a dvd drive is sufficient for me. So no need for sata expansion.

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nbache 
Re: New X5000 system
Posted on 29-Dec-2020 23:36:39
#17 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Apr-2003
Posts: 997
From: Copenhagen, Denmark

@geen_naam

Quote:
This time around I will buy the "best" while still available. Just because I can now
If this is the case, I think it should be mentioned that a higher-specced X5000 model has also been announced, although no release schedule is fixed.

It's called the X5000/040 and has a four-core CPU slightly higher clocked than the two-core on the current model, the X5000/020.

At the moment, the 040 is still only in the hands of a relatively small number of beta testers etc. (I'm lucky enough to be one of them ).

Sorry if I haven't made it easier for you to decide . Guess it comes down to how badly you need your fix ...

Best regards,

Niels

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BigD 
Re: New X5000 system
Posted on 30-Dec-2020 0:17:13
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5478
From: UK

@nbache

That’s a bit disingenuous plugging a mythical beta-tester machine that had no public roadmap for release! I would wager that the X5000/040 won’t launch unless the X5000 currently in stock is close to selling out, SMT enabled AmigaOS update is ready and the A1222Plus has already launched. That could be at least a year’s wait! If the guy wants a AmigaOS machine currently available why talk him out of it?

Last edited by BigD on 30-Dec-2020 at 12:18 AM.

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nbache 
Re: New X5000 system
Posted on 30-Dec-2020 23:51:46
#19 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Apr-2003
Posts: 997
From: Copenhagen, Denmark

@BigD

I know, but on the other hand if he's really determined to get the very fastest one, he'd risk feeling cheated if he didn't know about it and bought the 020, then a year (or whatever) later he sees it being second best.

I think I did tell honestly about the situation of no release date etc. and even wrote that it was a choice dependant on how fast he wanted a machine vs. how badly he wanted it to be the ultimate one.

Again, not trying to mislead. The sanest choice for most would likely be to get the 020 now. It's also a great machine - as I understand from end users and fellow testers (not having owned it myself).

(But I got the faster one - muhahaha ... err, sorry ...).

Best regards,

Niels

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Rob 
Re: New X5000 system
Posted on 31-Dec-2020 23:08:05
#20 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6000
From: S.Wales

I was just having a browse through the Cyrus+ technical manual and googled some of the parts on the board. In doing so I noticed that Renesas issued an end of life notice for the 89H12NT12G2 PCIe to PCIe switch at the beginning of December and last date to order is the 6th of April 2021. I hope A-EON are on top of this in regard to future production runs.

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