@Trixie

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an independent OS would not be supported by the developers and betatesters.

It’s a huge waste of time, doing the same thing again, while it be painful for the users, to have to deal with all the new bugs, in the replacement components. So far this not gone smooth installing updates from AEON, with conflicting versions and names. Benefits in resplendent components are debatable, and do not have same features as ones that comes original in AmigaOS4.1.

We do not need to replace things that are working, we need Rust, Node.js, better GNU bin-utils, Git support and things that benefits developers.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 01-May-2021 at 03:11 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 01-May-2021 at 03:08 PM.

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@IridiumFX

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Not a vampire owner here, yet let me ask: what’s the point of a PPC card on classic?

It is fast. It is comfortable.
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It runs exactly zero standard apps.

Which are worth little more than nothing today.
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You could wire a pentium and it would be the same.

This is anti ppc propaganda bs.
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MMU is again something that people weaponize only for trolling purposes. Please stop.

Stop this crap that MMU is not important.
MMU on Amiga is important.
It helps a lot at developing code.
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Pro tip: no two generations of the 68K family have the same MMU.

Enforcer works with all.
But no problem here.
Natami/Apollo/Vampire Team just have to choose one.

@NutsAboutAmiga

if find fpu support for me is super important, one of my main reason to having one, without it i find vampire useless. when i love demo scene, raytracing, 3d games.

the way i see it, fpga cpu must be replaced by new generation with more space for everything a user base would need. like real programmed fpu and not a partly compatible emulated one (even though they are really fast right now) and not basic 3d subsystem the classic had (i think they feel taboo to talk about) but i guess it related to no more space as it was for other stuff i seen mention.

but hey, it all seem very promising already.. do want one lol

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@ppcamiga1

Quote:

This is anti ppc propaganda bs.

You may like it or not, the PPC is connected to the system bus with the original 68K still alive and kicking. In this context, the ISA of the external CPU is not important. The two CPUs don't execute the same instruction stream, but rather share a part of the address space. To every extent, they don't care of each other and only "interact" with interrupts turned off. The PPC was easier to interface as it was running big endian, but this does not mean you could not have had a CPLD flipping bytes on the bus and interface whatever you like. No BS, just computer science.

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Which are worth little more than nothing today.

Like everything Amiga, we could say. Point is, worthless or not, they may cover some of your needs, when you feel terribly nostalgic. What do you use your Amiga for, otherwise?

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It helps a lot at developing code.

It helps, yes, for some diagnostics. It also helps for cache control. And it makes sense to have a "68040.library" custom tailored for whichever MMU your system is running.
For development purposes, though, you may be confused with the "Trace" bits of the status register . And those have nothing to do with the MMU. That's why you can run your Asm-One, your MonAm, your CPR and step/debug your code

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Natami/Apollo/Vampire Team just have to choose one.

this is their problem. I am not a vamp user.

@NutsAboutAmiga

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why do you think all drama about AmigaONE-A1222 not having standard FPU was all about

Partly because we love drama in Amiga-land.

Even back in the days, we used to have different executables for int and fp version of a program. And often with CPU level granularity. Do you remember the ADPro loaders? ImageFX operators ? integer? 020? 882 ? 040 ? The installer would ask you which version you'd love to use, and then install them for you.

yes, the e500 core has both FPU and MMU incompatible with the other PPC models used in previous solutions. Not different at all a 68K lessons Motorola refused to learn . Patience and a bit of creativity would solve the issues much better than drama and, in some cases, baseless rude behaviors

Last edited by IridiumFX on 01-May-2021 at 09:34 PM.

@IridiumFX

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You may like it or not, the PPC is connected to the system bus with the original 68K still alive and kicking.

MOS and Amiga Os 4.x switch off 68k after start.
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The two CPUs don't execute the same instruction stream, but rather share a part of the address space. To every extent, they don't care of each other and only "interact" with interrupts turned off. The PPC was easier to interface as it was running big endian,

Which means no changes in code.
C code works on ppc just after recompilation.
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but this does not mean you could not have had a CPLD flipping bytes on the bus and interface whatever you like.

Such CPLD not exist and will not exist in the future.
It is simple. Os and Apps data ar not on fixed adresses.
Thats why big endian cpu is important.
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"Trace" bits of the status register .

trace bit will not help at finding null pointer access.
Especially in code write by others.

@IridiumFX

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but this does not mean you could not have had a CPLD flipping bytes on the bus and interface whatever you like.

That means that you must disable CPU Cache, because what happens in the CPU’s is that that store large blocks internally, so unless you can put the “CPLD flipping bytes” in the CPU somehow.

Beside TEXT is stored in same order, shorts, int’s are in revere order, and so on, you also need to count for even and odd addresses. So maybe not so simple logical as you might think

And its also the problem with some how attaching Amiga chipsets on a PowerPC, You can technically do it, but it comes a big cost.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-May-2021 at 12:25 PM.
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Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-May-2021 at 12:20 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-May-2021 at 12:17 PM.

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@IridiumFX

What are zero standard apps? Chipset hitting apps?

I had PPC cards in my Amigas, it does run every rtg/68K/Warpos programm. In FullHD on Mediator, with OS3.9 or OS4.1.

@amigadave

hi that was just a guess as I cant come up with any other reason as to why HYperion has made very little progress on os4.1 in the last few years.

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Quote:

kamelito wrote: @Trixie I guess with all the changes made over the years writing OS 4 very little Legacy Amiga OS code remains thought, so it’s like Unix vs Linux or AmigaOS vs Aros/Morphos.

It's mostly about the (brand) name, not the contents... it's just like with other things like drinks, food, cars, clothes, phones etc :) If some people have decided to follow certain brand and only that, they just close their eyes from anything else and that's it :)

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@NutsAboutAmiga
the VME bus of the 68K is different and incompatible with the 60x bus of the G2 PowerPCs. Expect such a CPLD or a functionally equivalent ASIC or FPGA to already exist on the accelerator cards and do the necessary adaption. It's already snooping the bus exactly like it would need to do in order to interface a CPU of any other ISA. Just not flipping bytes.

When it comes to cache, you surely don't expect the 68K and PPC cores to have cross cache coherency protocols in place right? I am afraid, there's none.
The 68040 only supports the MEI protocol (no 'S' shared bit on cache lines), just like the PPC 603. (The 604 implements the full MESI protocol, but the botleneck here is still the 68K side). So even if you added the necessary bus snooping logic both sides, you could still not share memory among the two CPU caches. You could only try to reduce the number of flushes.

That's why the PPC in the classic amiga world is more of an offload computation engine, but here we digress.

I hope this helps to dispel a few myths the Amiga community keeps repeating like a mantra.

Last edited by IridiumFX on 03-May-2021 at 01:32 PM.

@bennymee

I apologise, I should have clarified this.

Your PPC on the accelerator card in the classic Amiga, does not run any 68K Amiga application at all. It's still a 68K CPU that runs them, and the PPC sits idle all of the time.

Only WarpOS/PowerUp specific Apps can make use (note: make use) of the PowerPC. The Amiga OS Exec, ROM based libraries and resources never use nor know of the existance of the PowerPC. I am aware of "SetFunction" patches applied in order to let the Dos library recognize the EHF and ELF code sections. The point is still the same.

Take an OS Friendly app like Brilliance, Aegis Sonix, or any other app not specifically written with PUP/WOS support.

Run them with and without the PPC. Do you think having the PPC onboard would make them faster? I am afraid, it won't.

@ppcamiga1

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Which means no changes in code. C code works on ppc just after recompilation.

That's REALLY not the point!

The point is that with DATA being stored BIG ENDIAN, PowerPC and 68k (emulated or real) can SHARE DATA in memory! The implication being that a 68k MUI program can use PPC native MUI classes, for example. This has zero to do with C code, those MUI programs are written a range of different languages.

Last edited by kolla on 03-May-2021 at 01:40 PM.

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@IridiumFX

Quote:

Your PPC on the accelerator card in the classic Amiga, does not run any 68K Amiga application at all. It's still a 68K CPU that runs them, and the PPC sits idle all of the time

Wrong. Once you boot OS4 or MorphOS on a "classic" Amiga, all 68k code run only through emulation - the 68k is for all practical purposes not there. Just as if you run PowerPC Linux or BSD on a "classic" with PPC card.

Last edited by kolla on 03-May-2021 at 01:45 PM.

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@ppcamiga1

Quote:

trace bit will not help at finding null pointer access. Especially in code write by others.

you surely are not telling me that you need an MMU to set the Vector #3 (misalinged memory access) or Vector #2 (Bus error, including null pointer dereferencing), isn't it ? Enforcer is a very nice tool, but not everything it does is strictly MMU related.

There are some legitimate usages for the MMU, like GigaMem and paged virtual memory systems in general, or marking areas of memory you do NOT want to cache, like the 68040.library does in order to allow an Amiga 4000 to properly function, or some old ShapeShifter custom video drivers which tried to detect modified memory regions (note: those never got faster than the standard MMU-less ones, but they were a nice experiment nonetheless)

@kolla

Quote:

all 68k code run only through emulation

Sorry, Kolla, what else should I add? If you like emulating stuff, you can just use WinUAE, isn't it ? I am missing your point probably

@kolla

having a shared address space is not the same as sharing data in memory. The PPC on the classic Amiga is nothing more than a computation engine. It's used like a slightly more intelligent device than a DSP, but exactly the same way.

@IridiumFX

You are wrong: the PPC does run every 68K application on OS4.x (or earlier versions of MorphOS). The 68K is disabled using these OS'es.

UAE emulates the chipset to some degree, the NG os'es only the 68K.


2nd: on AmigaOS with the WarpUP or PowerUP every Amiga programm which uses datatypes will be accelerated as the datatypes are PPC.
Especially OS friendly programms, there where even patches which make programma who did not use datatypes could use them.
And yes, the programm's it self where still using the 68K.

>do you think having the PPC onboard would make them faster?

No I did not think that, it was benchmarked many times in magazines some 20-25 years ago.
Besided that many programm's have PowerPC-plugin.

Does it mean the PowerPC addon's where the best ever made ?
Well, they where stunning with 2 different cpu's - which where not ment to use together - but also there was the lack of cache on the PPC side. And the context switching offcourse.
The WarpUP vs PowerUP did not help either.
On the other hand they where made as intermediate solutions.

Last edited by bennymee on 03-May-2021 at 03:34 PM.

@bennymee

here we agree, and we slowly get back on topic for the thread: these were intermediate solutions. They were meant to bridge towards something new. They were supported in a creative way, because we always had to cope with differences in each and every model, each and every hardware. This, to me, means embracing diversity in our ecosystem.

I would have loved to have an A1222 5 years ago, even if it was sold with FPU disabled, rather than reading threads full of mostly random opinions. And you know what? if tomorrow the A1222 went on sale for a decent price, still without FPU, I'd still buy it ... as a developer

@IridiumFX

On Amiga we have SysBase adress at location 4.
Very fragile and very easy to override.
Which almost always results in os hang.
Enforcer protect first page of memory.
On Amiga with Enforcer software with null pointer access do not hang os.
First page protection is also builtin in MOS and Amiga Os 4.
Vampire has nothing like this.