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      /  The Wayfarer browser about to make another leap
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number6 
Re: The Wayfarer browser about to make another leap
Posted on 2-May-2021 17:29:15
#21 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11059
From: In the village

@ne_one

some varied reasons here

#6

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AP 
Re: The Wayfarer browser about to make another leap
Posted on 2-May-2021 18:01:09
#22 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Jul-2003
Posts: 563
From: Vienna/Austria

@number6

Quote:

number6 wrote:
@ne_one

some varied reasons here

#6


Some very valid reasons. Why paying for a license when the amount to port Wayfarer is is similar to porting a newer version of Webkit to Odyssey or merge TwentyFourFox or Seamonkey to Timberwolf? For this you dont need a license but a person who is able and willing to do this for AmigaOS4.

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jacadcaps 
Re: The Wayfarer browser about to make another leap
Posted on 2-May-2021 18:43:33
#23 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Nov-2007
Posts: 179
From: Canada

@AP

Right, good luck updating Odyssey. Or Timberwolf. People claiming this is a feasible way forward obviously do not know much about programming nor the code base of both WebKit and Firefox.

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kas1e 
Re: The Wayfarer browser about to make another leap
Posted on 2-May-2021 18:49:26
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3473
From: Russia

@jacadcaps

Yeah, ppls who talk about know nothing about how hard it all.

But about licencing Waywarer source code (about which topic on amigans are): it really make no sense, because if it in ObjectC it mean whole rewrite of all amiga specific parts, or more of it, making ObjectC working on amigaos4 , but that alone not a problem, problem is framework and all stuff morphos have around it. Add there how much of morphos-specific code only it has, and all the fixes and improvements you with othters do in kernel of morphos, in gcc and other parts. And you for sure use Reggae, CGX5 and all that stuff which need rewriting and reporting again. Knowing all my issues with Odyssey porting, that will be harder than writing something from scatch, imho. Maybe Waywarer source there can be just a case of reference, but probably nothing more.

In this light, licening the code mean nothing. Only sitting on them and collecting dust, as no one will port it. It can do only you :) Just ask 30-40k$ from AEON, maybe they will be ok with, and you can get a bit of $ as well. Through of course, porting it to os4 will be no very funny for you if you dislike it :)

Last edited by kas1e on 02-May-2021 at 06:51 PM.

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AP 
Re: The Wayfarer browser about to make another leap
Posted on 2-May-2021 19:01:37
#25 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Jul-2003
Posts: 563
From: Vienna/Austria

@jacadcaps

Quote:

jacadcaps wrote:
@AP

Right, good luck updating Odyssey. Or Timberwolf. People claiming this is a feasible way forward obviously do not know much about programming nor the code base of both WebKit and Firefox.


I am not claiming it (just brainstorming) and you are right: I am not an expert in this field. But the point is that a license alone makes no sense.

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AP 
Re: The Wayfarer browser about to make another leap
Posted on 2-May-2021 19:07:10
#26 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Jul-2003
Posts: 563
From: Vienna/Austria

@kas1e:

Quote:

kas1e wrote:
@jacadcaps

Yeah, ppls who talk about know nothing about how hard it all.


Maybe, but this wasn't my point. I am aware that is hard to port a browser in general and jacadcaps did a good job for sure but - as you pointed out also - a license alone makes no sense.

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jacadcaps 
Re: The Wayfarer browser about to make another leap
Posted on 2-May-2021 19:11:36
#27 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Nov-2007
Posts: 179
From: Canada

@kas1e

ObjC is just a small subset (frontend) of the code and replacing it with pure C++ to make a regular MUI custom class is a trivial task. You can then build a browser on top (it's the easy part).

Why would I use Reggae or CGX, really? You've worked on Odyssey for OS4 so you really should know better than to throw those names in. WebKit uses libpng and so on for image decoding, there's no point in using Reggae. Same for CGX - all the graphics is done using cairo, only the final blitting uses WritePixelArray#? of which OS4 obviously has equivalents.

You are right that licensing is pointless if there's no skilled programmers willing to work on the code, though. I am too busy this year, so tough luck.

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amig_os 
Re: The Wayfarer browser about to make another leap
Posted on 2-May-2021 19:43:20
#28 ]
Member
Joined: 6-Feb-2018
Posts: 14
From: Poland

@kas1e

The IDEA from NinjaCyborg:


--- Copy & Paste ---

link

WebKit is not GPL so Wayfarer guy is not obliged to release the source to anyone who asks. He is offering access to his private repo with ongoing updates but his browser chrome is in ObjC and depends on his own ObjC runtime port for morphOS, and he is not interested in doing the OS4 port himself. So the value of access to his changes to webkit to get it to build using morphos tool chain is questionable compared to spending the same amount of money/time on working directly on odyssey.

His changes are not big endian fixes for webkit, webkit does support big endian fine. In fact the whole big endian/little endian debate is a red herring with the exception of JavaScript.

Wayfarer does not have a big endian JIT for JavaScript. TenFourFox does, so even though that is now end of life, it is still up to date and could be ported. There is at least one other big endian powerpc JIT for Javascript on linux.

Also whilst new Firefox uses Rust which Amiga does not have, Timberwolf was built against XUL and C++, and SeaMonkey, which is still actively maintained, still runs on XUL and does not need Rust. So while it'd be a big job, it is not un-feasible technically to update timberwolf with patches from seamonkey and tenfourfox to make it better.

--- End ---


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kas1e 
Re: The Wayfarer browser about to make another leap
Posted on 2-May-2021 19:58:18
#29 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3473
From: Russia

@amig_os

NinjaCyborg only talk about from "possible techincal" point of view. Just like other users bring all those wish-ideas. And he talk about browser (and team he had willing working on it ) for year or two already, so dind't take it too serius.

I from my side at least know how internals looks like and how it all for real. And you can take my words for granded : it is not possible to "patch" firefox or whatever, or making "Rust" , and merged all those SeaMonkeys. It's just sounds like can be done, but in reality it big shit of boring and almost near to impossible (for amiga developers especially) task. No one will do it.

The only real way for all amiga like oses its amiga gui on top of WebKit : that how was done old OWB by Andrea and then by Joerg, that how was done Odyssey by Fab for morphos and ported by me on os4, that how jadacaps and other in morphos team doing with Waywarer for morphos now.

And if me told so, and if Jadacaps going Waywarer route together with others from morphos team, it kind of say more than users wishes having "firefox teh omg tm c cr".

@Jadacaps

I bring CGX5 because for example in Odyssey, for accelerated video playback on morphos CGX5 + overlay were used, while for OS4 we had to rewrite it to Compositing and stuff. Also, there were some parts used available only on moprhos (spellckeging library if i remember right), but in others it was mostly portable code (just hooks and some equavalents of missing funcs).

If you will have any interest to port it to os4 for money someday, i am sure Trevor / Mattew can pay. At least some devs from Morphos surealy done some work for them (Mark if i remember right), and those developers in Enahncer also got paid for real, not like Ben paid :)

Last edited by kas1e on 02-May-2021 at 08:01 PM.
Last edited by kas1e on 02-May-2021 at 07:59 PM.

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amig_os 
Re: The Wayfarer browser about to make another leap
Posted on 2-May-2021 20:15:34
#30 ]
Member
Joined: 6-Feb-2018
Posts: 14
From: Poland

@kas1e

I've seen Wayfarer on the PowerBook G4 and it's slow - you must have min. G5 (?!??)
There is no multicore support and GPU support to make it faster - morphos developers will not provide this because they cannot write it.

I believe in Trevor's words: first openoffice and then a browser for AmigaOS4.

PS.
Wayfarer it doesn't work on my X5000/RX560 .. X1000/R9 280X ... Morphos

Last edited by amig_os on 02-May-2021 at 08:24 PM.
Last edited by amig_os on 02-May-2021 at 08:23 PM.
Last edited by amig_os on 02-May-2021 at 08:21 PM.
Last edited by amig_os on 02-May-2021 at 08:20 PM.

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bennymee 
Re: The Wayfarer browser about to make another leap
Posted on 2-May-2021 21:02:29
#31 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 633
From: Netherlands

@amig_os

I have Wayfarer on the Mac Mini, it is as fast as other browsers imho. Compared to Sam460 or X1000 imho. Only iBrowse is faster, but more websites are not supported.

People have it running on X5000 besides some have problems with YouTube aka video/videoverlay.

Last edited by bennymee on 02-May-2021 at 09:10 PM.
Last edited by bennymee on 02-May-2021 at 09:08 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: The Wayfarer browser about to make another leap
Posted on 2-May-2021 21:02:53
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11649
From: Norway

@amig_os

Quote:

PS.
Wayfarer it doesn't work on my X5000/RX560 .. X1000/R9 280X


I can only think of WebGL, that might require some special code, OpenGL ES2.0.
Yes, it be nice to have that too, but its useless without fast javascript support.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-May-2021 at 09:03 PM.

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jacadcaps 
Re: The Wayfarer browser about to make another leap
Posted on 3-May-2021 15:43:30
#33 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Nov-2007
Posts: 179
From: Canada

@kas1e

Quote:
I bring CGX5 because for example in Odyssey, for accelerated video playback on morphos CGX5 + overlay were used


Sure, but this is a tiny fraction of all the code I've had to write. Things you can port to OS4 in a day, while I've spent 4 grueling months on the media playback already for example.

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redfox 
Re: The Wayfarer browser about to make another leap
Posted on 4-May-2021 21:04:43
#34 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1799
From: Canada

@jacadcaps

Thank you for your work on Wayfarer browser. Good to see ongoing support and updates.

I wish this browser was available for OS4, but I do not have the skills to make it happen.

Meanwhile, thanks for all your efforts.

---
redfox

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BigD 
Re: The Wayfarer browser about to make another leap
Posted on 4-May-2021 23:01:38
#35 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5613
From: UK

@Thread

... and so with much fanfare the weapon of mass destruction is wheeled out for the Blue Team! The Reds cower and cry in frustration and fear!

... everyone else just carries on using Chrome, Firefox, Safari or MS Edge!

It's like the Atari ST vs Amiga all over again; very important to the rabid few but the rest of the world carries on using x86-64 and Arm and believes a web browser is nothing special and yet ubiquitous!

Amigas are better used being creative or playing games than worrying about whether you can watch YouTube or not!

Either the Red Team pours resources into this or we give up and cheer the Blues from the side lines with their hero programmers!

... just be aware in the big scheme of things you could just use your phone!

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amigadave 
Re: The Wayfarer browser about to make another leap
Posted on 4-May-2021 23:25:51
#36 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Jul-2005
Posts: 1684
From: Lake Shastina, Northern Calif.

@BigD

The "Blue Team", as you put it, isn't supporting the creation and maintenance of the Wayfarer web browser as a weapon against anyone. We just enjoy being able to use our "Amiga-Like" (I know many hate this term, but for the lack of a better term, I'll continue to use it) system to run old Amiga software, and newer MorphOS native software, including a competent web browser, so we don't have to be sitting in front of two running computers at the same time. This is specially true for MorphOS users who enjoy their G4 PowerBooks running MorphOS while they travel, or commute to work on a train. It does no one any good to perpetuate the old Red vs Blue disagreements and attacks.

As an X1000 owner who would like to use AmigaOS4 more often, I would like to see any developers who are qualified port Wayfarer to AmigaOS4, or create their own new Webkit based browser, but I don't know if we have anyone who is both qualified to do such work, and also has the time to devote to such a big project.

In regards to your comment to just use our cell phones, thanks, but no thanks. I only resort to such a small screen when there are no other options.

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BigD 
Re: The Wayfarer browser about to make another leap
Posted on 4-May-2021 23:45:24
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5613
From: UK

@amigadave

Quote:
It does no one any good to perpetuate the old Red vs Blue disagreements and attacks.


It's not an attack but an observation that this sort of news just leads to pleas from the AmigaOS crowd for a port which would not be easily done without a devoted part time coder!

My comment about the mobile phone was trying to point out that it isn't the end of the world if this never comes to fruition on AmigaOS because if you are spending so much money on a niche computer you shouldn't be using it to watch YouTube or to do your web banking!

All AmigaOS machine support Linux so just use that for web browsing if you're an AmigaOS user! Everyone stays happy (although the MorphOS people with G5s are happier ).

Last edited by BigD on 04-May-2021 at 11:47 PM.

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BigD 
Re: The Wayfarer browser about to make another leap
Posted on 4-May-2021 23:54:19
#38 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5613
From: UK

@Thread

From amigans.net

Quote:
Also whilst new Firefox uses Rust which Amiga does not have, Timberwolf was built against XUL and C++, and SeaMonkey, which is still actively maintained, still runs on XUL and does not need Rust. So while it'd be a big job, it is not un-feasible technically to update timberwolf with patches from seamonkey and tenfourfox to make it better.


So A-EON or an ongoing bounty should pay the Friedens to update Timberwolf as simplist AmigaOS solution. That is if they're still interested?

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TRIPOS 
Re: The Wayfarer browser about to make another leap
Posted on 5-May-2021 9:45:29
#39 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1079
From: Unknown

@BigD



I'm puzzled by your post. What are you trying to say? That MorphOS developers should quit doing what they do, just to not make OS4 look bad due to its stalled situation? Your wining sounds very much alike what we saw during the nineties when it became obvious that wonderful Amiga wasn't even able to play mp3's without the use of external HW decoders. A sour grapes thing; "who wants to play mp3's on their Amigas anyway". Just like your post. MorphOS is pursuing a dream of a next generation Amiga experience in a modern context. Nobody is saying the aim is to replace Windows or mobile phones, it is a hobby thing after all, but web technology is essential in any computing today. Not just for browsing, but many other applications is built on web technology. Many years ago there was a dream here on AW.net about a Spotify port to Amiga. The Spotify app is based on web technology. The modern office apps are most certainly based on web technology internally because it makes so much sense, and there is (was?) an effort of creating a word processor on MorphOS based on this concept. Even simple tasks as e-mailing the world outside this little community couldn't be done today without web technology, this is why the Iris e-mail application on MorphOS handles html internally using web browser tech. Your ramblings about "weapons of mass destruction" is very strange, like the point would have been to be mean to OS4 rather than to develop the MorphOS environment and future. Get a grip!

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Trixie 
Re: The Wayfarer browser about to make another leap
Posted on 5-May-2021 11:57:23
#40 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 1990
From: Czech Republic

@BigD

Your ability to come up with the silliest of theories never ceases to amaze me!

@TRIPOS

Quote:
Your ramblings about "weapons of mass destruction" is very strange, like the point would have been to be mean to OS4 rather than to develop the MorphOS environment and future.

Exactly. The MorphOS and AmigaOS4 communities have their own lives and better things to do than shoot at each other from old trenches.

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