@SHADES

Quote:

SHADES wrote: @kolla And that's all it's capable of unless things change. You certainly won't use current Amiga for editing video, DAW work, Graphic workloads like photos, multi-tasking word processing, printing, desktop publishing, Internet, file transfers, database work....etc etc

What is this “Internet” you speak of? World wide web? I live my professional life very much in text terminals, and for that even old 68k Amiga can be good enough. And through arexx, shell scripts, execution of remote commands, parsing output back in arexx… you can do quite a lot, actually, and most often a heck lot easier than with “modern” desktops. Amiga can be a great “remote controller” really. At one point I had kubernetes clusters controlled via DOpus5 listers on the MiST, it was pretty cool.

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B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@BigD

"..and for 450 Euro on top of a A1200 that is going for 400+ Euro on eBay these days or the 'cheaper' option of 549 Euro for a V4 Standalone, why would you choose an Amiga to do:"

And emulation is free, and can be also more compatible.

IF you just want to play games, grab a $50 Pi and just be done with it all. Why spend a darn cent if that's all you want.

PiStorm (The first break away cost upgrade) Fixes most of the slow, now junk AMIGA I/O and retains compatibility at under $100 for existing users.
It brings Amiga back into the realms of, "Oh great! I get to use Amiga OS as a functional computer in daily use again"

If you are paying 50 quid just for the PiStorm, i'd say you are getting ripped off. Prob by a known expensive vendor. You can build them yourself if you are so inclined for a fraction of that cost!
You may think $300 is ok for 720p SAGA, most of us think that's insane.
That cheap Pi revision a can do better and be faster at it.
Like I said, PiStorm (The first break away cost upgrade) because, it seriously is.

The problem with New Gen is the expensive "buy-in" cost. Otherwise, a lot of people would have bought them and the OS would have most likely gone faster in development, than growing mould.

I used to do ALL of the things I listed back in the day. ALL of them.
I still prefer the OS feel and multitasking abilities. If it had the development, yeah, i'd use it.

Otherwise, just go back to playing Superfrog.

Last edited by SHADES on 09-Jul-2021 at 07:06 AM.
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_________________
It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

@kolla

You don't use Internet? how the hell did you post that reply !!
i must know this vodoo magic

_________________
It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @SHADES Quote: SHADES wrote: @kolla And that's all it's capable of unless things change. You certainly won't use current Amiga for editing video, DAW work, Graphic workloads like photos, multi-tasking word processing, printing, desktop publishing, Internet, file transfers, database work....etc etc What is this “Internet” you speak of? World wide web? I live my professional life very much in text terminals, and for that even old 68k Amiga can be good enough. And through arexx, shell scripts, execution of remote commands, parsing output back in arexx… you can do quite a lot, actually, and most often a heck lot easier than with “modern” desktops. Amiga can be a great “remote controller” really. At one point I had kubernetes clusters controlled via DOpus5 listers on the MiST, it was pretty cool.

For out-of-the-box network support, AmigaOS 3.1/3.1.4/3.2 is worst than Windows 3.11 and MacOS 7.x.

With AmigaOS 3.1/3.1.4/3.2 on a physical A1200. I connected the PCMCIA WiFi card (NL-2511CF Mercury) on A1200. Sweet nothing. I have tested NL-2511CF Mercury WiFi on an old Dell Pentium M + Windows XP laptop with a PCMCIA port.

For out-of-the-box experience, my A1200 with a Pentium class 68060 CPU + 128 MB RAM and couldn't match my old Windows 95 + Pentium PC setup.

Away from WinUAE's built-in support with host Windows services, AmigaOS 3.1.4/3.2 on physical A1200 hardware, I hunt around for softsynth GMplay, CAMD intercept (i.e. CAMD_Tools), figure out Compact Flashcard mount list support files (e.g. Fat32). I use Windows 10 PC to solve A1200's OS issues. I need to figure out the PCMCIA WiFi card (NL-2511CF Mercury) for the A1200.


AmigaOS 4.1 FE (via WinUAE 4.9 beta 23 with CyberStorm PPC, G-REX PCI, Voodoo 3 RTG, A4000 base) has a higher maturity when compared to Amiga OS 3.1/3.1.4/3.2. I would like to see AmigaOS 4.1 FE backported to 68040/68060/AC68080 CPUs i.e. these 68K CPUs are at least 486 to Pentium class level CPUs.

I also have a PCMCIA SCSI card (mostly used for on-site mass document scanning work, replaced by a fast USB solution on modern laptops) from the PC world.

I'm running MacOS 8.0 with 32MB RAM via ShapeShifter on A1200 with 68060 + 128 MB RAM.
I might try Linux 68K, set up a C++ dev tool chain on the physical Amiga. A1200 has a compact size for retro Amiga and Mac 68K.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@DrProcton

Quote:

DrProcton wrote: @Hammer I have a Playstation5 and still marvel when I see something like tbl-EON running on an a500. And yes the main coder of that Amiga demo works as main engeneer at Dice (you should know a game called Battlefield). Why he spent two years of his free time for an Amiga500 demo? Because is still a coherent and elegant machine, or maybe just for fun or to prove himself he can really code. The result is stunning for me. If only Nvidia rtx amazes you i'm sorry for you..

Several key DICE software engineers (e.g. Johan Andersson, technical director for Frostbite engine) have left EA and DICE. Johan Andersson has helped to define the specifications for AMD's Mantle API.

Patrick Söderlund left EA on August 14, 2018 for Embark Studios.
Johan Andersson left EA on Nov 8, 2018 for Embark Studios.

EA is bleeding key software engineers.

The Timeline
In 2000, DICE acquired developer Refraction Games (developers of Codename Eagle). From the acquisition, DICE inherited the in-development Battlefield 1942. Patrick Söderlund was the founder of Refraction Games.

In November 2004, Electronic Arts (EA) announced their intent to purchase all outstanding shares in DICE. At the time, EA owned 18.9% in DICE.

EPOS Game Studios was founded in the summer of 2005 by Staffan Langin and Olof Gustafsson, co-founders of Digital Illusions.

Frostbite 1.0 was released in 2008 with Battlefield: Bad Company.

In terms of raytracing and other DirectX12U feature support, Battlefield's Frostbite 3.x engine is behind Doom Ethernal's ID Tech 7

Last edited by Hammer on 09-Jul-2021 at 04:59 AM.
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Last edited by Hammer on 09-Jul-2021 at 04:47 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 09-Jul-2021 at 04:46 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 09-Jul-2021 at 04:39 AM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @SHADES Quote: Aww I dunno about that. You say that until you complain about screen re-draw on a 16 colour WB background that's still stuck in the year 1985 with a mind-blowing 320x512 resolution. If the 080 core is as fast as claimed then the speed boost to AGA is more than sufficient to justify a £200-300 niche Amiga accelerator! What is confusing is why the Apollo Team think that SAGA, USB controller support, ethernet, microSD, digital out and fast IDE ports are worth an extra £80-£180 over and above what seems reasonable to someone that just wants a modern accelerator! How much is a PiStorm by comparison? £50.00 PiStorm Rev B Adapter £24.12 RPi Model 3A+ Total £74.12!!! Therefore, there exists an insane Apollo Team mark up for these 'low end' marketed products and it's also too close to the V4 Standalone price point IMHO!

To quote Gunnar von Boehn, "high-quality production line already in place for the V4 cards in Germany".

The last "German engineering" for the Amiga was Phase 5 (later, DCE, bPlan GmbH) and it was associated with uncompetitive high cost.


Raspberry Pi is mostly designed in the UK (.e. ARM SoC IP) and most Pis are made in a Sony factory in Pencoed, Wales, UK while others are made in China and Japan. Raspberry Pi's ARM-based SoC was integrated by Broadcom (US, Singapore). Broadcom was ordered by the European Union to stop allegedly anti-competitive practices.
Broadcom Inc. was established in 1961 as a semiconductor products division of Hewlett-Packard.
https://www.investopedia.com/news/top-4-broadcom-shareholders-avgo/

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@SHADES

Quote:

SHADES wrote: @kolla You don't use Internet? how the hell did you post that reply !! i must know this vodoo magic

Who said I am not using Internet? The question is, are YOU?

The Internet is not just TCP port 80 and 443, there's a heck lot more to it, and for quite many things, the Amiga, while not at all ideal, is still capable.

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B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@Hammer

What's with the off-topic pointless rambling?

Indeed, if you want to experience the best possible Internet experience on 68k Amiga, you get that by using either NetBSD or Linux/m68k. If you go for Linux, I suggest starting with Debian, and then a chroot environment with a meta distro (for example Gentoo/Portage), so you can build yourself up to bleeding edge. I recommend it.

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@kolla

Point me to the post where I stated the Internet is a specific port. Please 🤣

_________________
It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

@kolla

Quote:

What is this “Internet” you speak of? World wide web?

*fades back to wonderfull world of MPLS*

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @Fairdinkem The title is misleading, it should really be "The Vampire creator leaves the Apollo Team" I suppose this means that the A1200 "Raptor" is cancelled, and all previous "roadmaps" are binned. Again. It's now back to "V4 for everybody!!111".

This is the only well communicated 'news' post on this thread.

To clarify: the Raptor WOULD HAVE been a cheap V2 board design, marketed (and priced) to compete competitively with the PiStorm (tough ask) and to wipe the floor with the overpriced but feature rich Warp 1260. Since that was an Igor project and he's left it is now dead!

Hence, the 'FrozenDuck' and 'FireFoul' V4 accelerators that are now premium products filling the crowded middle ground and competing with their own V4 Standalone! If you have this much disposable income then you'd go all out and buy a Warp 1260 wouldn't you?

SAGA has not been marketed properly and has no Picasso96 drivers and AHI drivers written for it yet so has the potential to lead to another 'banging the metal' era where the OS plays second fiddle to Gunnar's exotic (and closed) hardware designs!

Is this accurate? The Raptor was a great idea but now we Amigans have to pay through the nose for features that we didn't ask for! Can both Classic Amiga screen modes AND SAGA screen modes be outputted through the Digital Out for example? Have you seen what Perifractic from RetroRecipes had to do to fudge a half workable auto-switching solution between RTG and Amiga Screen Modes on his Vampire? This screen mode fudge has gone on for too long! 450 Euros for an unfinished product!

Last edited by BigD on 09-Jul-2021 at 01:23 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 09-Jul-2021 at 01:20 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

Quote:

SAGA has not been marketed properly and has no Picasso96 drivers and AHI drivers written for it yet so has the potential to lead to another 'banging the metal' era where the OS plays second fiddle to Gunnar's exotic (and closed) hardware designs!

It seems that no one on Amiga field is able to do it in the right way, never.
Despite all fuss, Vampire accelerators had P96 compatibility from early days - vampiregfx is a P96 driver.
The new cards will also have AHI compatibility (for Arne 16 bit audio). This is not a feature in progress, as the v4 is already AHI compatible.
V4 is CyberGFX compatible too (Aros 68k).
But SAGA is also a new chipset for v4 and new accelerators, and enables (only if you want! ) to bang it at low level as the original chipset.
And maybe will be able to revive lost memories of true Amiga lust..

Last edited by DrProcton on 09-Jul-2021 at 06:56 PM.
Last edited by DrProcton on 09-Jul-2021 at 06:55 PM.

@Fairdinkem

Related to this, for those who were still queuing for a V2 1200 (some for over a year already):

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=5¬e=36057

If they produce these new accelerators in a similar way to the V4 Standalone as they plan to, availability shouldn’t be many months in future.

(stupid modern browser reposting when going back)

AHI… Gunnar just loves AHI, right? :)

Ah, here it was…
http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=1&note=29981

Last edited by kolla on 09-Jul-2021 at 09:34 PM.
Last edited by kolla on 09-Jul-2021 at 08:52 PM.
Last edited by kolla on 09-Jul-2021 at 08:50 PM.

_________________
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BigD Quote:

To clarify: the Raptor WOULD HAVE been a cheap V2 board design, marketed (and priced) to compete competitively with the PiStorm (tough ask) and to wipe the floor with the overpriced but feature rich Warp 1260. Since that was an Igor project and he's left it is now dead!

When I suggested Gunnar work with Igor Majsta, I had been reading his website "blog".

Majsta Quote:

UPDATE: March 1, 2013 There are some rumors about this project regarding final price. Something like: "It's a cool project but it could cost about 500USD". Let me say once more STOP MILKING MONEY FROM RETRO FANS. New PCB redesign is taking place and I m doing major makeover to drop price under 100USD for advanced version and under 50USD for low end version. So stop spread words about high price and that someone again want's to get rich from Amiga name. Will I succeed regarding final price we will see. For now I can't promise anything but that is the final goal regarding the price.

Majsta Quote:

It is quite confusing situation to me. I didn't believe that I would need to produce more than 20 boards. Complete day I m answering to PM and email messages and I just can't keep track what I m doing anymore. Please have patience because I m sending boards for production and I just can't answer all mails at this point. Thank you. UPDATE: August 8, 2013 Now board is 32MB autoconfig. But, haters gotta hate. It is just interesting to me what I read on various forums. There are so much people who would like to see all of this fall down, and never see real success. Why? Just so they can say "I told you that all of this will be failure". I don't know the reason for all of this but those days I realized one thing. That Amiga is not destroyed just because company died. Amiga is destroyed by developers and resellers wanted to earn huge money from Amiga name. Like vultures various people are sending me bunch of mails wanting to increase price of the boards and to resell them. Proposal prices about 200Euros :) Let me say this. If I ever seen that someone sells this card for some incredible high price I will stop him by putting tons of boards for sale at manufacturing cost. No more exploiting Amiga scene from now!!! Here is what I said one of the supporters of this project yesterday. Yes I received lot of mails for some proposals. Resellers, manufacturers all of them wanna make money and increase price and benefit from this. I will fool them all opensourcing everything. I will survive alone and do everything alone and my work will be free and I will send lot of boards for free to people and PCB also. I m waiting just for another money transfer from my government. I m in a mission remember. With true amiga spirit.

https://www.majsta.com/modules.php?name=News&file=categories&op=newindex&catid=1

Majsta has the "Amiga spirit" but learned the hard way about cost reducing hardware. He kept using older FPGAs to keep the price down and even was ripped off by fakes on E-bay. He was also making Vampires without enough margin for himself and risks of production. I suggested he raise his prices. It's not that I wanted higher prices. I wanted to cost reduce the Amiga the proper way and I was working toward that with suggestions of creating a business, finding business partners for creating an ASIC and finding embedded partners who could use it in quantities needed for mass production. Gunnar kept telling me that an ASIC would cost too much and more development was needed. The latter was certainly true but the planning has to start early. He moved in the opposite direction by optimizing the hardware and ISA for a FPGA claiming technical authority for all decisions. I'm afraid you are stuck with the technical authority making the business decisions too.

BigD Quote:

Hence, the 'FrozenDuck' and 'FireFoul' V4 accelerators that are now premium products filling the crowded middle ground and competing with their own V4 Standalone! If you have this much disposable income then you'd go all out and buy a Warp 1260 wouldn't you?

Fewer products would be simpler and cheaper to produce. Amiga users are attached to their old hardware even though the V4 standalone is technically superior (one chipset and one HDMI output). A little Amiga nostalgia and soul is perhaps needed.

Amiga 120
wedge case design of an Amiga 1200 including original style keyboard
disk drive replaced with bay/slot for CD-Rom
Internally uses a RPi form factor Amiga SBC with different panel for modern IO
fully equipped with plenty of storage and everything installed and ready to boot

I think this would sell well with Amiga branding and if the right price targets were met with mass production.

BigD Quote:

SAGA has not been marketed properly and has no Picasso96 drivers and AHI drivers written for it yet so has the potential to lead to another 'banging the metal' era where the OS plays second fiddle to Gunnar's exotic (and closed) hardware designs!

As already stated in the thread, there is already a P96 SAGA driver.

https://wiki.apollo-accelerators.com/doku.php/saga:updates

Instructions on how to install it are at the following link.

https://wiki.apollo-accelerators.com/doku.php/system_tools:rtg

It is perfectly normal for hardware to be accessed with hardware registers. You are complaining about the hardware being "closed" where register documentation is withheld while also complaining about "banging the metal" from hardware register documentation being open. I would much prefer the register documentation to be open and available although I suggest programmers avoid banging the hardware. I noticed that some of the SAGA hardware registers have changed. It looks like newer documentation is at the following link.

https://wiki.apollo-accelerators.com/doku.php/saga:registers:start

It looks like the SAGA hardware is much more flexible now with the hardware registers matching up with P96 settings which is also optimum. Notice SAGA address $dff1f4 used to have the width and height hardcoded here where they have separate registers now and new SAGA_VIDEO_DBLSCN settings now replacing it. This makes it difficult to support older hardware. The documentation should be in one location, clearly state "subject to change" and list all changes and what versions of SAGA they were changed in. It is unprofessional much like the CPU core ISA changes I suggested should be added "for evaluation and subject to change". Yes, an FPGA can be changed but shenanigans like this make development and support difficult. Gunnar is fast and has done some good work here but he is also sloppy, sometimes takes shortcuts, sometimes is deceptive and overrules team decisions.

BigD Quote:

Is this accurate? The Raptor was a great idea but now we Amigans have to pay through the nose for features that we didn't ask for! Can both Classic Amiga screen modes AND SAGA screen modes be outputted through the Digital Out for example? Have you seen what Perifractic from RetroRecipes had to do to fudge a half workable auto-switching solution between RTG and Amiga Screen Modes on his Vampire? This screen mode fudge has gone on for too long! 450 Euros for an unfinished product!

It looks like the older Vampires only have enough FPGA resources for a SAGA chunky screen buffer. This is likely where the hardcoded display width and height come from. Although I use the term "screen buffer", it really is all that is required for chunky graphics as the blitter doesn't operate on it. This is all that is necessary for P96 support of chunky on ECS which is quite useful. Only the chunky mode is displayed out the HDMI of these early accelerators. It looks like the newer accelerators have full SAGA support which allows the motherboard chips to be used for IO while SAGA is used for the display and output out HDMI. It still should be possible to use the original hardware with the accelerator out the original ports. It looks like the Vampire HDMI output is having trouble displaying 320x200 as horizontal and vertical DBLSCN is 640x400 where digital output support can have a minimum of 640x480 display. Using some trick, the other HDMI output from the motherboard in the video is able to display 320x200. This is likely just some work that needs to be done on SAGA to get this to display but there is a small chance it could be a hardware limitation of the Vampire too. The switcher in the video should *not* be necessary.

SAGA has multiple display layers. I don't know what all the layers are but some of them would be sprites, PIP overlay, AGA bit planes and mutlitple playfields, chunky screen buffer and genlock video. Top layers can have transparency and multiple layers can be displayed at the same time opening up interesting display possibilities. The chunky layer is at the bottom and that is likely all the older Vampire FPGAs had room for and only with hardcoded settings. The larger FPGA likely allows the full SAGA and the difference in cost should be small. You probably get a faster CPU and better FPU to go with a more complete motherboard chipset replacement. It has most of the hardware of the standalone Vampire which is why the price is so close. With mass production, the standalone may be cheaper than the accelerator if the accelerator to Amiga connectors are uncommon.

@matthey

Thanks for some background. I still think that the ‘Raptor’ is a better name and that there was life left in the V2 as a low cost option but concede that the new boards might be a similar value for money prospect. It is nice to know there is a P96 driver and that there could be a future solution for the digital output problem.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

BigD Quote:

Thanks for some background. I still think that the ‘Raptor’ is a better name and that there was life left in the V2 as a low cost option but concede that the new boards might be a similar value for money prospect. It is nice to know there is a P96 driver and that there could be a future solution for the digital output problem.

It looks like the board in the video is a Vampire V2+ which has a Cyclone III and may have a cut down version of SAGA. The newer boards have a bigger Cyclone V and should have the newer full version of SAGA. The more flexible SAGA registers may have already fixed the 320x200 display problem. If the default settings do not, it should be possible to add non-displayed lines in the border with the P96 mode editor called Picasso96Mode to get the mode up to the minimum lines necessary for display. In other words, the problem may already be fixed on newer hardware while older hardware may have fixed settings and limited space making it difficult to fix.

Last edited by matthey on 10-Jul-2021 at 01:44 AM.

@gryfon

Thank you Gryfon, that is good news I have been waiting a long time like yourself. I can't wait to get the new card despite all the politics and anger since this announcement.

_________________
Amiga A1200T - TF1260 - R9200 - Indivision AGA MK3
Amiga A500 - PiStorm EMU68
Pegasos 2 G4 - AmigaOS 4.1 FE / MorphOS 3.16

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: (stupid modern browser reposting when going back) AHI… Gunnar just loves AHI, right? :) Ah, here it was… http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=29981

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_AA%2B_Chipset

Lew Eggebrecht stated once that DSP will be integrated in all future Amiga chipsets including the low end ones.


C= has plans for DSP attached to audio DACs (Paula's successors).

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @Hammer What's with the off-topic pointless rambling? Indeed, if you want to experience the best possible Internet experience on 68k Amiga, you get that by using either NetBSD or Linux/m68k. If you go for Linux, I suggest starting with Debian, and then a chroot environment with a meta distro (for example Gentoo/Portage), so you can build yourself up to bleeding edge. I recommend it.

Speaking for myself, most of the AmigaOS 3.x problems can be overcome i.e. I'm a C#/C++ programmer and I handle AmigaOS's issues, but it would be struggling for normal users.

NL-2511CF Mercury is Intersil PRISM WiFi chipset.
From http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=76580 and https://www.dropbox.com/s/rvc6qhuj5vw7wpv/amiga%20wlan.pdf?dl=0
NL-2511CF is mentioned as working with Amiga PCMCIA. The hardware selected is ready for the A1200.

I have mentioned Linux68K in other topics for my A1200's TF1260 setup i.e. separate flashcards for AmigaOS and Linux68K. I usually build bootable OS installs on flashcards with WinUAE.

Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jul-2021 at 01:15 AM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)