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/  Forum Index
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      /  Classic Amiga 680x0 Multicore!
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Poll : Would you love a classic 680x0 Multicore Amiga!
Yes, of Course!
No! Never!
I want a Quantum Computer!
I want Pancackes!
 
PosterThread
TRIPOS 
Re: Classic Amiga 680x0 Multicore!
Posted on 13-Jan-2022 18:10:48
#21 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1159
From: Unknown

@QBit

Amiga != SMP by definition!

Multicore means breaking compatibility. Not only binary compatibility but also source code compatibility. And if you are sacrificing this, then there is no rational point in keeping it 680x0 (or PPC for that matter) and it would benefit greatly from rebasing to contemporary little endian architectures like ARM and/or x64. It would also open up for going full-blown 64-bit computing (or at least dropping the 31-bit addressing limitation), adding proper memory protection, resource tracking, etc.

But since all of this requires developers, none of it is ever going to happen!

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OlafS25 
Re: Classic Amiga 680x0 Multicore!
Posted on 13-Jan-2022 18:14:39
#22 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5981
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

then I seem to have the UBER UBER Amiga because I have both AHI and Paula

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OlafS25 
Re: Classic Amiga 680x0 Multicore!
Posted on 13-Jan-2022 18:17:56
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5981
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

SMP and MP and 64 bit (=modern) means that most Amiga software no longer works and it is difficult to port existing software to it. If you do that it only makes sense if you get another software base as replacement, f.e. Linux or Unix. "Modernizing" the old platform in a simple form means modern OS with no software. Difficult to get users for that

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QBit 
Re: Classic Amiga 680x0 Multicore!
Posted on 13-Jan-2022 18:31:04
#24 ]
Member
Joined: 15-Jun-2018
Posts: 54
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

With the PC 32 Bit Software also runs on 64 Bit CPUs it's a question of CPU design,, and As far as I know it PPC is 64 Bit anyway!

Sad I am no Billionaire.. with Money everything is feasable!

Last edited by QBit on 13-Jan-2022 at 06:33 PM.
Last edited by QBit on 13-Jan-2022 at 06:31 PM.

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QBit 
Re: Classic Amiga 680x0 Multicore!
Posted on 13-Jan-2022 18:39:20
#25 ]
Member
Joined: 15-Jun-2018
Posts: 54
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

Man I am talking about WinUAE.. EMULATION.. in Quickstart you have Amiga 500, Amtiga 1200 and Amiga 4000.. it's only Adding an Optional UBER Amiga an experimental UBER AMIGA in WinUAE!

In this Experimental emulated UBER AMIGA there could be experimented to create an Dream Amiga running on any hardware we wanted!

Last edited by QBit on 13-Jan-2022 at 06:44 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Classic Amiga 680x0 Multicore!
Posted on 13-Jan-2022 18:43:23
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12001
From: Norway

@QBit

Windows3.1 used to have an extension for running 32bit programs.

_________________
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QBit 
Re: Classic Amiga 680x0 Multicore!
Posted on 13-Jan-2022 18:46:33
#27 ]
Member
Joined: 15-Jun-2018
Posts: 54
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga



You are confusing me aren't you? *lol*

I am hust trying to inspire.. I have no Skills to realize it myself!

Last edited by QBit on 13-Jan-2022 at 06:51 PM.

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QBit 
Re: Classic Amiga 680x0 Multicore!
Posted on 13-Jan-2022 18:55:13
#28 ]
Member
Joined: 15-Jun-2018
Posts: 54
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Hyperion created Amiga OS 3.2 it could create a commercial UBER Amiga OS running on classic. its a question of Joining Forces!

Last edited by QBit on 13-Jan-2022 at 06:56 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Classic Amiga 680x0 Multicore!
Posted on 13-Jan-2022 18:56:04
#29 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12001
From: Norway

@QBit

Windows3.1 used to be 16bit or at least most of it.

https://winworldpc.com/product/win32s/130

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 13-Jan-2022 at 06:57 PM.

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QBit 
Re: Classic Amiga 680x0 Multicore!
Posted on 13-Jan-2022 19:00:30
#30 ]
Member
Joined: 15-Jun-2018
Posts: 54
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

OK you make me silly *lol*


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SHADES 
Re: Classic Amiga 680x0 Multicore!
Posted on 13-Jan-2022 20:23:26
#31 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 709
From: Melbourne

@QBit

It's high time to move away from 68k.
The ASIC is no longer being developed and hasn't for a very long time. It would cost a lot of money to even attempt to bring it back with more function, memory fabric between cores etc. Enough already.

A new and affordable instruction with modern compatibility has been sorely needed for many years and is what is holding everything back.

We can already plugin a PiStorm to replace the outdated 68k and use the old hardware.
Now we need to just move over to something like ARM, build a custom chipset PiStorm plugin card for legacy and be done with it.

For Amiga to continue to develop, it needs to be made accessible (price) and with modern I/O etc.

Last edited by SHADES on 13-Jan-2022 at 08:30 PM.

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Cheese 
Re: Classic Amiga 680x0 Multicore!
Posted on 13-Jan-2022 21:31:34
#32 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Oct-2006
Posts: 292
From: Unknown

@QBit

_________________
x86/MorphOS 4.0

"Delving into the past can be a dangerous exercise." -hyperionmp

"I've been a supporter of "REACTION" GUI because is an Amiga OS thing." -Snuffy

"I personally prefer a vision of do'ers and makers rather than

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bison 
Re: Classic Amiga 680x0 Multicore!
Posted on 13-Jan-2022 21:34:46
#33 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1959
From: N-Space

@QBit

Quote:
its a question of Joining Forces!

Here we go: Joining the Forces, 2022 Edition.

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

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Rose 
Re: Classic Amiga 680x0 Multicore!
Posted on 13-Jan-2022 21:42:00
#34 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 964
From: Unknown

@QBit

Quote:
Hyperion created Amiga OS 3.2 it could create a commercial UBER Amiga OS running on classic. its a question of Joining Forces!


Have you any idea how long Hyperion has been telling that multicore is just around the corner for ppc and still have F All to show?

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amigadave 
Re: Classic Amiga 680x0 Multicore!
Posted on 13-Jan-2022 21:50:02
#35 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Jul-2005
Posts: 1727
From: Lake Shastina, Northern Calif.

@QBit

Quote:

QBit wrote:
@OlafS25

Hyperion created Amiga OS 3.2 it could create a commercial UBER Amiga OS running on classic. its a question of Joining Forces!


When Pigs can fly and Hell freezes over (or choose whatever other impossible thing to compare it to).

Joining forces is NEVER going to happen, and Hyperion did NOT create AmigaOS 3.2, they were given it by the developers to sell and distribute. In fact, Hyperion has "created" almost nothing EVER, and has caused more harm to the Amiga community than the pittance they have contributed to the community.

As for multi-core Classic Amiga via UAE, it probably will just be multiple instances of AmigaOS for 68k with the ability to quickly and easily talk to each other, so data can be passed back and forth and controlled by one of the instances, to make it appear to the user like a multi-core running of Classic AmigaOS. Modern computers should be able to run multiple instances of AmigaOS for 68k, so we just need the layer or application to handle the communication and data transfer between instances, and controls to manage it all from the primary instance to make it all look like just one instance of AmigaOS for 68k.

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QBit 
Re: Classic Amiga 680x0 Multicore!
Posted on 13-Jan-2022 22:50:05
#36 ]
Member
Joined: 15-Jun-2018
Posts: 54
From: Unknown

@amigadave
I am talking about Emulation only. and I believe that there could be experimented with multiple emulated CPUs running on a decent PC or RPi on physical Multicore CPUs,, A start would be adding an Start Option Custom or experimental Amiga... And the guys who made Amiga OS 3.2 could also develop the experimental Multicore OS!

I repeat myself but If I could Invest a lot of Money and create a Team it would be possible!

Amiga can handle multiple CPUs.. for example the x86 Bridgeboard.. thats running 2 CPUs at the same Time!

OK.. I asked Toni Wilen directly at EAB in the WinUAE support Thread!!

Last edited by QBit on 13-Jan-2022 at 11:28 PM.
Last edited by QBit on 13-Jan-2022 at 11:27 PM.
Last edited by QBit on 13-Jan-2022 at 10:58 PM.
Last edited by QBit on 13-Jan-2022 at 10:54 PM.
Last edited by QBit on 13-Jan-2022 at 10:51 PM.

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matthey 
Re: Classic Amiga 680x0 Multicore!
Posted on 14-Jan-2022 0:32:51
#37 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1293
From: Kansas

QBit Quote:

I dream of expanding WinUAE to Multicore 680x0 support and adapting Classic Amiga OS to Multicore support!


I believe this is possible although Multicore SMP with software emulation is still tricky, especially if trying to maintain software compatibility with current Amiga software. There would be major inefficiency issues as CPU cores would be operating at most at 1/3 performance due to emulation and most cores have no hardware support to efficiently stop and restart other cores for forbid/disable which is the same problem trying to enable SMP on any existing hardware for the AmigaOS. It would be an interesting proof of concept as both the inefficiencies could likely be improved using custom hardware for a 68k AmigaOS. It would require considerable work to WinUAE with likely disappointing performance enhancing results without development of custom hardware for the AmigaOS. Multicore AMP support should be easier and more efficient and since you do not specify SMP or maintaining compatibility I believe this is possible.

QBit Quote:

And I dream of a emulated 32 channel 16 Bit Paula!


SAGA already has 16 channel support which is compatible with Paula. It should be easy to enable 32 channel support. The question is whether it is worthwhile to have so many channels anymore. Most music is already pre-mixed together and streamed rather than created on the fly and played on separate channels like it used to be in the Amiga days. Higher performance CPUs can mix channels in software today with little slowdown. Maybe 32 channels is a waste or maybe it would be a cool retro advantage depending on the resources needed. It should not be a problem to add more channels to WinUAE emulation and it would likely be relatively easy. Tony has rejected SAGA emulation so far because it is a moving target in FPGA. Once again, I believe what you say is possible.

QBit Quote:

And emulated 3D RTG!


WinUAE can already emulate a Voodoo 3 Avenger chipset. There is also 3D software emulation like Wazp3D. Again possible.

QBit Quote:

I even go further in Software there could be even an 64 Bit Amiga created!


AROS x86-64 is already 64 bit showing that it is possible although without Amiga software compatibility. I believe 64 bit support can be added with 68k Amiga compatibility. For best compatibility, much of the AmigaOS would need to remain in 32 bit memory using 32 bit pointers in AmigaOS structures. Programs could use 64 bit memory for some uses as documented and with new flags specified. Dynamically allocating 64 bit memory could use a new MEMF_64 flag, for example, which would return a 64 bit pointer to memory and without it a 32 bit pointer to lower memory. For the 68k, a new 68k 64 bit support ISA and ABI would be required with compiler and emulation support. Creating a 64 bit emulation environment would be helpful especially if planning to create 64 bit 68k hardware but otherwise existing software really doesn't need it and emulation of a 64 bit core would likely be slower compared to a 32 bit core. Cooperation would be required between AmigaOS developers, compiler developers and WinUAE developers to make it a reality but I believe it is possible even if some people would call it only partial 64 bit support.

QBit Quote:

Hyperion created Amiga OS 3.2 it could create a commercial UBER Amiga OS running on classic. its a question of Joining Forces!


Much is possible with working together and extinction is probable without. Your suggestions are not so far fetched to deserve the criticism you have received. Perhaps your biggest oversight is to suggest that all these enhancements be done just for inefficient emulation but surely many believe your suggestions are more sane than mine to create them hardware. A new software only Amiga platform is no better than Amiga Anywhere which is Amiga Nowhere. If Amiga emulation could revive the Amiga then it would have already done so.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Classic Amiga 680x0 Multicore!
Posted on 14-Jan-2022 0:59:26
#38 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 532
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Quote:

QBit wrote:

Man I am talking about WinUAE.. EMULATION.. in Quickstart you have Amiga 500, Amtiga 1200 and Amiga 4000.. it's only Adding an Optional UBER Amiga an experimental UBER AMIGA in WinUAE!

In this Experimental emulated UBER AMIGA there could be experimented to create an Dream Amiga running on any hardware we wanted!



You, friend QBit,
possess a very deep understanding of emulation, and a profound intelligence.

Please keep inspiring us.
And Toni Wilen.
He's waiting to welcome you with open arms*.

/mega










*arm here not representing any cpu architecture, long live 68k, hail to the chip.

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CAN YOU SEE ME? CAN YOU HEAR ME? OK FOR WORK

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fishy_fis 
Re: Classic Amiga 680x0 Multicore!
Posted on 14-Jan-2022 8:23:33
#39 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1963
From: Australia

@QBit



Quote:
I dream of expanding WinUAE to Multicore 680x0 support and adapting Classic Amiga OS to Multicore support!

And I dream of a emulated 32 channel 16 Bit Paula!
And emulated 3D RTG!


Why do you want multicore support? So you can run all of the 0 pieces software that would support it?
As for sound. Why? Do you want to downgrade vs what is available?
In regards to wanting emulated 3d rtg..... err.... you do realise that is has been available for over 10 years right?

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Birbo 
Re: Classic Amiga 680x0 Multicore!
Posted on 14-Jan-2022 10:23:45
#40 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Apr-2007
Posts: 591
From: Zurich, Switzerland

@all

The best solution is (that's just my opinion), how the Apollo CPU from the Vampire Team has been made.

Is it Multicore? Yes, I think so. You have different cores doing different stuff, right? This was and is the best Amiga way you can choose.

Gunnar von Boehn and the whole Team around the Apollo CPU did an amazing job.

It's all we need in this question / discussion: The Apollo CPU.

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