@amigang

While your post has several good and constructive points, I also feel that you have some of the fundamentals wrong.

Here are a few:

Quote:

So Cloanto has secured the rights to the Amiga brand for nearly three years now, since 2019

Amiga Corporation (not Cloanto) purchased the IP of Amiga, Inc. Cloanto does not own Amiga. Hyperion (with lawsuit money from Trevor) has been blocking the acquisition ever since (they need to sign it off under section 24 of the 2009 Settlement Agreement).

Guess who is profiting from his void, which led to well-known grabs and uncertainty? Who owns the OS4 kernel? Who co-owns and funds A-EON-Kit?

Quote:

so far the biggest project I see them involved with (well simply licensing the Roms) to Retro Games LTD to allow them to make The A500 Mini.

That was a Cloanto project from 2016. At the time, Cloanto still only had the copyrights up to 1993 (which is considered pre-"Software" under the 2009 agreement - a crucial point to consider). Amiga did not even get the chance to be involved with it. Amiga may have wanted to see it released under the "Amiga" brand, but again, this is not possible until things are resolved. That's why it's called "A500 Mini" and not "Amiga 500 Mini".

As for these Copyrights, Cloanto said they would contribute them into Amiga. But that too is blocked by Hyperion and whoever backs them.

Quote:

Perfect example is the website, Amiga.com, the official home of Amiga Inc

Amiga, Inc. is no more. Make that Amiga Corp. now.

I see how Cloanto has been wanting out of this for a while. Amiga is not Cloanto's core business. Maybe they will continue to do Amiga Forever, but they do not want to hold any of the IP. That will be all owned by Amiga.

Quote:

I feel they should and could be doing much more.

Maybe. But wasn't the 2019 acquisition (and the consolidation and clarity that is expected to follow) already a huge step forward? Without that, are the other steps you describe even possible? How can you make that process faster, when Hyperion even opposed conducting the trial over Zoom, which would have allowed it to be over by now?

Regrettably, some people have been involved in lawsuits against Amiga since the 2000s, and keep blocking their every step. There must be easier things than fighting against a lawyer backed by a millionaire...

@LadyJane

Quote:

That was a Cloanto project from 2016. At the time, Cloanto still only had the copyrights up to 1993 (which is considered pre-"Software" under the 2009 agreement - a crucial point to consider). Amiga did not even get the chance to be involved with it. Amiga may have wanted to see it released under the "Amiga" brand, but again, this is not possible until things are resolved. That's why it's called "A500 Mini" and not "Amiga 500 Mini".

What something is being called is different than what something is trademarked obviously.

Nevertheless, we know the intent or -hope- of Retro Games Ltd. on this:
THEAMIGAMINI

The above prior to registering:
THEA500

Both of these went under attack, so to speak through objections, documented on this website.

#6

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@bison

Quote:

BTW, aren't "pancakes" and "who cares" basically the same thing?

pancakes taste great …hmmm blueberry

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@LadyJane

Make some good points, I get that legal issue can get in the way of many projects or ideas they have. Maybe they cant or don't feel the need to launch a website until its all sorted, so I will give them a break on that.

However, I still feel they could be doing a little more with there Amiga Forever product. (which I pretty sure there no legal issue with that otherwise it wouldn't be for sale now.)

Dont get me the wrong the updates and work that's gone into Amiga Forever I think its a solid product but how many even know about it unless you already into Amigas, and looking for Amiga products. Kids and users like I said do their shopping on the mega site like Amazon, Steam, Good Old Games, Epic Store, etc having it on these platform would be some much needed exposer for the platform. All these sites have automatic algorithm that push up products it think a user on these platform might like, so people who buy retro games might get suggested Amiga Forever software, they may never even heard of the platform but might check it out, its free exposer!

This should in theory cost them nothing.

I dont know if people on hear are familiar with Steam Workshop, but it allows the community to make mods and addons for programs / games, I think if that was made for Amiga Forever it be really interesting, things like adding support for Steam Dex would be nice as example

But I would hope they spend some money and also make a mobile phone version, would be nice, not just the roms but having an official emulator would be nice, yes this might cost money and development but if this is there main product I feel a mobile version really needs to happen, people are moving away from the old big box computer. Yes I know there is emulators already out for Android, but I tell you two of my old friends and my brother didn't know how to set it up and run games on it (i think it pretty easy) but I think us computer nerds easily forget that not everyone knows how to do it, (there a reason Amiga Youtube video of how to set up emulation usually have 40K+ views) people do want something that just works.

All Im trying to point out is there is room to do more and many markets to maybe get into that my gut feeling would take very low level investment and might make us a few more Amiga fans. that all.

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@amigang

AF can't be installed on AmigaOS4.1, as long as that’s the case EUAE is more interesting to me.

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LadyJane Quote:

Amiga, Inc. is no more. Make that Amiga Corp. now.

If contract obligations block the transfer of IP from Amiga Inc. to Amiga Corporation, then with whom do they currently reside if Amiga Inc. "is no more"?

LadyJane Quote:

Maybe. But wasn't the 2019 acquisition (and the consolidation and clarity that is expected to follow) already a huge step forward? Without that, are the other steps you describe even possible? How can you make that process faster, when Hyperion even opposed conducting the trial over Zoom, which would have allowed it to be over by now? Regrettably, some people have been involved in lawsuits against Amiga since the 2000s, and keep blocking their every step. There must be easier things than fighting against a lawyer backed by a millionaire...

It is obvious to me that Hyperion has been employing delaying tactics. They have much to lose and little to gain from a court ruling. However from my limited knowledge of the situation, only the IP listed in the contract, "AmigaOS" and "AmigaOne" which could not be transferred to Amiga Corporation, are limitations to what Amiga Corporation can do now. "AmigaOne" is not so useful anyway. "AmigaOS" is but Cloanto may be able to transfer or license the name to Amiga Corporation to use it in some cases. Reverting back to calling the Amiga OS Workbench and Kickstart would get around the problem or the name could be changed to "AmiOS" or similar. The current lawsuits are no doubt a draw on finances and time but, from my perspective, it looks like Amiga Corporation has more freedom to use the Amiga IP than Hyperion ever did. Correct me if I'm wrong.

@matthey

who cares?

I hope they go on forever

from my point of view it is a big luck. If that would not have happened propably vampire would be equipped with patched 3.1 kickstarts and not aros roms.

Now they have lost the big customer. Worse there was a lot of 68k related development recently so there is no way back.

Additional the uncertainty around Hyperion destroys the 4.1 base. I think all parties involved loose the longer the situation lasts

@OlafS25

Quote:

I think all parties involved loose the longer the situation lasts

Absolutely.

And just think of the opportunities lost during a period in which many companies are capitalizing on the strong desire for retro technologies and nostalgia.

Settling this inane legal situation would be beneficial to all involved.

Last edited by ne_one on 03-Feb-2022 at 02:39 AM.
Last edited by ne_one on 03-Feb-2022 at 02:38 AM.

@LadyJane

cloanto start this court crap and cloanto should stop this court crap.
cloanto should use what they have after buying ainc.
2009 agreement give ainc right to use Amiga Os for games as long as gui is not exposed.
cloanto should just use this.

@matthey

Quote:

Reverting back to calling the Amiga OS Workbench and Kickstart would get around the problem or the name could be changed to "AmiOS" or similar.

They could call it mattheyOS if they wanted but it would still be based on "The Software" as defined by the 2009 settlement.

@number6

Quote:

Nevertheless, we know the intent or -hope- of Retro Games Ltd. on this:

Yes, but they settled on something different, that does not use "Amiga".

Quote:

Both of these went under attack

Matthew Leaman and Paul Andrews grabbing trademarks and attacking each other... that was indeed a sad chapter.

@matthey

Quote:

If contract obligations block the transfer of IP from Amiga Inc. to Amiga Corporation, then with whom do they currently reside if Amiga Inc. "is no more"?

Contract obligations didn't block the transfer of the IP. They block the use of the transferred IP.

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

cloanto start this court crap and cloanto should stop this court crap.

Reminds me of a famous Ricola ad.

Who started this?

Hyperion started this, when they couldn't deliver OS4, remember? Trevor backed Hyperion, while Amiga's investor died, leading to the ugly 2009 settlement that started the current chaos.

Quote:

cloanto should use what they have after buying ainc.

They don't need that: Cloanto are operating under a prior agreement. Cloanto was not even involved in any buyouts you describe, that was Amiga Corp. buying the IP of Amiga, Inc.

Quote:

2009 agreement give ainc right to use Amiga Os for games as long as gui is not exposed. cloanto should just use this.

The new Amiga may indeed be limited to this, leaving Cloanto able to do more, under its pre-existing (pre-2009-Settlement) rights.

If the current case can be settled (or if Amiga/Cloanto win), then Amiga should be able to do more than "games with no UI", as Cloanto should be allowed to transfer its prior rights into Amiga. Even Hyperion might have nothing to lose, because "the others" aren't really getting more rights than they had before.

On the other hand, some people do seem to enjoy the fragmentation and chaos...

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Quote:

To those horrid egomaniac carrion feeders, that IS the end.

You may be right on both counts. It's hard to beat Trevor's ego though: his companies sued Amiga twice, while he is writing a book that "leaves no stone unturned in revealing how the Commodore-Amiga assets became the target of a multiple of companies and individuals". A book about Copyright Chaos written by the person who caused it!

@LadyJane: In which way is Trevor responsible for the "Copyright Chaos"? I don't get your point.

Last edited by AP on 03-Feb-2022 at 11:59 AM.

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@LadyJane

Quote:

Hyperion started this, when they couldn't deliver OS4, remember? Trevor backed Hyperion, while Amiga's investor died, leading to the ugly 2009 settlement that started the current chaos. ... A book about Copyright Chaos written by the person who caused it!

That's one way of looking at it. However, Amiga Inc. were a joke and Pentti Kouri was a crook with failed economic hypotheses. Trevor at least cared about the IP and the machine's history. Hyperion at least USED the IP beyond what even Amiga Inc. envisaged. As people have pointed out Cloanto have the name and the website and COULD run with it if they wanted to for a game related product i.e. plug Amiga Forever AND the A500 Mini on Amiga.com. Don't blame Trevor for general IP grabbing, litigation and the games Hyperion have played. Trevor has tried for forge a third way with Hyperion and Cloanto.

Last edited by BigD on 03-Feb-2022 at 12:28 PM.

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@thread

Once you entrust your legal team to give you advice, you are expected to follow said advice.
All sides at one point or another have expressed this "first hand" either in forum postings or interviews, etc. I have no clue why you all want to deny this.

Too much talk about "what each party could have done or should be doing"

You are wrong about this.

#6

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Kinda feels like they brought it all to maintain the status quo and not to actually do anything with.
I really hope I am wrong......

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@Panthro

"confusion" imo was never an unintended consequence. It is that confusion that allowed so many pretenders to function and continue to do so.

I sincerely doubt the "owners" spend sleepless nights thinking about "what is best for Amiga".
It is more in the vein of "what is best for me".

People are certainly free to think the actions taken are either selfish or merely understandable moves made for personal survival.

*shrug*

#6

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@BigD

Quote:

Pentti Kouri was a crook with failed economic hypotheses. Trevor at least cared about the IP and the machine's history.

A crook?

Pentti Kouri was a successful businessman, a professor at Yale and Stanford, a supporter of the arts, and so much more. He could buy and sell people like Trevor 100 times. There would have been a chance for the community to engage with him, and I am sure he could have saved Amiga, had he not died so prematurely.

Trevor is an egomaniac, he never seemed to care about anything other than buying everyone's friendship via sponsorships and loans. Other than his involvement in multiple lawsuits against Amiga since his appearance in 2007, he is known for his involvement in a few Kickstarter projects that failed to deliver (a mere failure, not a crime, except that it becomes kind of pathetic when you refuse to admit it).

Trevor IS Hyperion. He is a shareholder, the main money lender, the main customer, and he has a secret "Free Everything" contract that not even the other Hyperion shareholders were allowed to see (which is in breach of several Belgian laws, but who cares when the main players are a lawyer and a millionaire?) Without his backing, there would be no Copyright Chaos (the topic of his book) and no lawsuits.

So much for "crooks".

Quote:

Hyperion at least USED the IP beyond what even Amiga Inc. envisaged.

How so? OS4 was part of the 2001 development contract. Perhaps you mean the exploitation of the free work of the 3.1.4/3.2 developers to fund more lawsuits, while Amiga resellers and users have to bear the full risk of it being considered illegal by the courts? Who will refund them in that case, Trevor?

Quote:

Trevor has tried for forge a third way with Hyperion and Cloanto.

Says who, other than the man himself? Trevor sued Amiga and Cloanto. He is holding a gun against their heads. Is that how you forge a third way?

@LadyJane

The legal mess started long before Trever, it might start before Amiga Inc, it just got lot worse with Amiga Inc, why because Amiga Inc did not develop this inhouse, they contracted Hyperion, then they sued Hyperion, and created legal mess, the lack funding, that has resulted is OS components not paid for by Hyperion. They might have had some opportunities to sell upgrades that was given for free, this mess of Bill Mc and Ben,Evens,Timothy. The transferee of overwhip to Trever was a result of lack funding, as individual developers sold their work to Trever, as they were never compensated for their work.

This why we now have Enhancer made by AEON, OS kernel made by ExecSG Team, and rest made by Hyperion, with exception some stuff not being updated anymore made by Joerg, and other stuff sold separately like RoadShow TCP/IP Stack made by Olaf.

Hyperion owns Reaction.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Feb-2022 at 05:31 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Feb-2022 at 05:28 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Feb-2022 at 05:17 PM.
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Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Feb-2022 at 04:58 PM.

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