@amigang

Well some bug fixes on AOS 3.1, a package with some free Extensions, re badging the it as AOS3.3, and distributing it with real ROMs could have done wonders under the Amiga fans.

Maybe Cloanto could find some fans doing these work for free.

@OneTimer1

Quote:

Maybe Cloanto could find some fans doing these work for free.

That’s what Hyperion is doing more or less, how will that make Cloanto any better then Hyperion?

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 05-Feb-2022 at 10:26 AM.

_________________
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

To understand Trevor, you really have to watch

THIS.

Until Minute 2.30


"Let me understand.
They put up all the money.
I do all the work.
What, if you don't mind my asking, would you do?"

"I'd make sure it's known the company's in business.
I'd see that it had a certain panache.
That's what I'm good at.
Not the work, not the work...
the presentation.

Such are the men you goons are lifting over your tired shoulders.
Such are the men you make pass to history as saviors and moral people, devoid of interest.

RIGHTFUL AMONG THE NATIONS,
as they say.

But make no mistakes, just like the pots-and-pans entrepreneur of the tear-jerking movie,
their aura of sanctity is entirely engineered and retconned.

As OneTimer1 so naively put it:
Quote:

Maybe Cloanto could find some fans doing these work for free.

Yes!

"Save" them from the evil forces of (insert other OS or HW platform) and put them to unpaid hard labor!

Last edited by MEGA_RJ_MICAL on 05-Feb-2022 at 04:31 PM.

_________________
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CAN YOU SEE ME? CAN YOU HEAR ME? OK FOR WORK

I find it funny how the OS 3.1.4/3.2 devs (aka “the team”, another one) excuse themselves by saying they don’t have access to hardware when Trevor is known for having one of the larger collections of classic Amiga hardware in existence. Providing the devs access to this hardware is the least he could do.

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@kolla

Quote:

I find it funny how the OS 3.1.4/3.2 devs excuse themselves by saying they don’t have access to hardware ...

Well, they should have access or at least some beta testers with access to Amigas or at least they should know how to set up WinUAE.

Quote:

when Trevor is known for ...

Trevor was not involved into the AOS3.1 + x development.

@OneTimer1
Quote:

Quote: when Trevor is known for ... Trevor was not involved into the AOS3.1 + x development.

Which is exactly what I find funny, with him being such a “community celebrity” and “sponsor” of Hyperion. And “world’s largest collection of Amiga hardware”.

Last edited by kolla on 06-Feb-2022 at 01:14 PM.

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

OneTimer1 Quote:

Maybe Cloanto could find some fans doing these work for free.

NutsAboutAmiga Quote:

That’s what Hyperion is doing more or less, how will that make Cloanto any better then Hyperion?

There was an agreement which fell through to release the 68k AmigaOS free of charge. Cloanto/Amiga Corporation wanted the free development labor to go toward a free product while Hyperion used profit from the free labor to fuel lawsuits against the owner of the AmigaOS. Does that make Cloanto/Amiga Corporation that wanted a free AmigaOS update any better?

Last edited by matthey on 06-Feb-2022 at 05:22 PM.

@thread

The context through which we share our opinions on this topic, or the other topics that briefly shared the proverbial stage, is that of an Amigan looking at the actions that serve the Amiga community, that work to arrest and perhaps reverse the decline of our beloved platform/ecosystem.

There have been very few people that had a real say in how things unfold, on this cursed journey, that were in it for philosophical reasons. Mostly it's been about business, and most individuals that held or shared the Amiga baton were business people.

There's that old saying "If it walks like a duck, and if it quacks like a duck..."

People are defined by their actions, and their worth is based on their word. So when I look at the actions of the people some of you place on a pedestal, I don't see any of them in this for the benefit of Amigans and the community. And their word, not worth much these days.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

Quote: Maybe Cloanto could find some fans doing these work for free. That’s what Hyperion is doing more or less, how will that make Cloanto any better then Hyperion?

It will not make them better but it will make them look better at least for some AOS3.1 + n/10 fans

@all

I think the poll results gives us an answer to this thread.

_________________
AmigaOS 4.x Beta Tester - Classic Amiga enthusiast - http://www.hd-zone.com is my Amiga Blog, check it out!

@HammerD

Yes, they should use amiga.com more strategically as already mentioned. However, unlike Amiga Inc . Who just brain farted their way through Pentti Kouri's money, Cloanto are a profitable and effective steward of the Amiga IP IMHO.

_________________
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John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

BigD Quote:

Yes, they should use amiga.com more strategically as already mentioned. However, unlike Amiga Inc . Who just brain farted their way through Pentti Kouri's money, Cloanto are a profitable and effective steward of the Amiga IP IMHO.

It looks to me like Cloanto has been in preservation mode but they were limited by the portion of the Amiga IP they had. Perhaps the reassembly of the Amiga IP under Amiga Corporation is an indication they plan to do more and there will certainly be pressure for them to do more. Let's take a closer look at the plans so far.

Amiga Inc. Plan of AmigaAnywhere using Tao Group's Intent
+ successful deals for Amiga IP and Tao Group alliance
+ planned mass marketing and distribution
+ targeted hot smart phone market
+ good financial backing
- software only platform not polished and not enough software to run on it
- a virtual processor (VP) is emulation (1/3 performance at best)
- Amiga in name only so minimal benefit from existing Amiga fans and software
- poor leadership and management

Perhaps the biggest oversight was losing Amiga user and fan support. The product was just too different from anything Amiga. Amiga Inc. may have been better off using UAE JIT emulation instead as software would not require porting and Amiga fans would have been more supportive. Maybe it was thought that the VP would have better performance as it used a 64 bit RISC ISA but this is unlikely and a 64 bit ISA for the 68k could have been created. The foreign to the Amiga VP alienated Amiga users causing some of them to seek other Amiga solutions like PPC hardware and improved UAE emulation. It is very difficult to create a new software platform and there haven't been many successful ones based on a VP or emulation (the Java Virtual Machine was successful for a time but the inefficiency led to its demise).

PPC AmigaOS 4 on AmigaOne hardware
+ native processor performance for AmigaOS 4 and recompiled Amiga software
+ optimized 68k emulation
- no Amiga chipset emulation so a large portion of Amiga software compatibility lost
- niche market hardware not competitive in price
- targeted the saturated desktop market and modern desktop features not added when ported to PPC
- Amiga Inc. funded AmigaOS 4 development only to have it stolen from them causing lawsuits

It was clear from early on that AmigaOne hardware was not compatible enough and too expensive to attract many Amiga users. The hardware is even less competitive today after the demise of the PPC architecture. The pilfering of AmigaOS 4 has led to long and expensive lawsuits which drain finances. One bright spot was the revitalization of the desktop market due to the Covid virus but it couldn't even help this dead platform which likely didn't benefit at all. The platform is so small and dead that the developer Hyperion stopped development and moved to the larger 68k AmigaOS market to return to AmigaOS profitability. This may have saved Hyperion except that they stole the AmigaOS and now waste profits on lawsuits. At least the Amiga Inc. guys knew when to quit when AmigaAnywhere became AmigaNowhere. AmigaOne has become AmigaNOne yet these guys persist in beating a dead horse. Embarrassing!

Future Amiga platform
+ native 68k performance and compatibility
+ Amiga chipset compatibility with enhancements
+ modern I/O ports
+ competitively priced mass produced hardware

These are the minimum requirements I believe are necessary to attempt another revival of the Amiga platform. It would not be without risk but the Raspberry Pi has shown the way and exhibits more of the Amiga philosophy than the AmigaNOne. An affordable 68k hardware could have retro and retro gaming appeal that is not possible for the Raspberry Pi. Watch THEA500 embarrass the AmigaNOne and it is just scratching the surface of the potential market.

@matthey

Amiga Racer
+ Tracks
+ Fast Cars
+ AMIGA RACER!!!!!!
+ Free
- Missing Tracks
- Stolen Assets
- Illegal
- Newlight

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@matthey

You write “native 68k performance” (whatever that means) and then go on to examplify this with ARM systems like raspberry pi and THEA500?

You are aware of PiStorm and Emu68?

_________________
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@matthey

you write "competitively priced mass produced hardware"... that is the most important problem in my view

I would add another option... Michal is working on emu68 for PiStorm. If I understand him correctly the final goal of him is emu68 running indepently on RPi so you could f.e. run Aros or AmigaOS with lots of features like RTG on RPi not needing any host system or emulator. That would be a cool little toy. The only thing that is not there would be a chipset. Games would only run when using the OS and not directly hitting hardware. A little like on AmigaOS running on PPC without added emulator.

Right, emu68 very much turns any Raspberry Pi into a 68EC040 (with FPU) Raspberry Pi, just need drivers for all the attached hardware like USB, NIC, wifi, bluetooth etc.

Last edited by kolla on 08-Feb-2022 at 02:57 PM.

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@matthey

Quote:

"AmigaOne" is a variation of "Amiga"? Perhaps "AmigaOne" is even a challenge of IP ownership to the trademark holder of "Amiga"? Is this a surprise to anyone?

Well "AmigaOne" does contain "Amiga" but I've never known what the point of the "One" is. Is it a tribute to game magazine The One Amiga? Is it an anagram? Haha I just found out "amigaone" is an anagram of "egomania".

But, what I do know is that the AmigaOne was an invention of Amiga The Inc. The product name which followed the so called Zico specification. Which included at least four common CPUs.
http://www.bambi-amiga.co.uk/amigahistory/amigaone.html

Quote:

- a virtual processor (VP) is emulation (1/3 performance at best)

It wasn't meant to be emulated but instead a load time compiler generated from generic byte code. It was the same idea as Java. What was the intent, were they competing with Java?

Quote:

- Amiga in name only so minimal benefit from existing Amiga fans and software - poor leadership and management

The function libraries were meant to be similar to Amiga library functions. But with load time functions. However, all OS have functions and functions are meaningless to Amiga users or gamers only.

Quote:

Maybe it was thought that the VP would have better performance as it used a 64 bit RISC ISA but this is unlikely and a 64 bit ISA for the 68k could have been created.

But it would need to be written. They had something ready to go. Apart from the strangeness of using a recent EOL CPU ISA as a new form of word code along with any legal issues.

Quote:

The foreign to the Amiga VP alienated Amiga users causing some of them to seek other Amiga solutions like PPC hardware and improved UAE emulation.

PPC was already out and somewhat established by then. But the "Amiga SDK" was a PC only product. It didn't work on any Amiga, which had an unsupported processor. What I think made it even worse, as if they didn't even try, is that the "SDK" didn't even support PowerPC Amigas even though the PowerPC CPU was said to be supported. There's proof in the pudding. Claim one thing and prove another.

Quote:

- no Amiga chipset emulation so a large portion of Amiga software compatibility lost

It would have been a lot of work doing this. Such as in a PCI card. And by then, a souped up Amiga had a Voodoo and a Blaster. Or some other RTG and Amiga replacement cards. The chipset was a legacy. And if it didn't help keep the Amiga in the video scene powering a new Toaster then it would have only been useful for games.

Quote:

- niche market hardware not competitive in price

The AmigaOne was also supposed to be an x86 PC among three other CPUs.

Quote:

- targeted the saturated desktop market and modern desktop features not added when ported to PPC

Was the same market saturated with Amigas? That was the target market. Which is why they only added Workbench.

Quote:

- Amiga Inc. funded AmigaOS 4 development only to have it stolen from them causing lawsuits

The original Amiga OS4 wasn't even an AmigaOS. OS4 was meant to be an x86 developer OS running Intent. Allegedly it would become OS5 on multiple hardware. But if it ever came out I think OS5 would have been a PC only OS to move Amiga people off the Amiga. Same as when Apple moved Apple fans from PPC to Intel. So Amiga didn't even want AmigaOS ported to PPC. Big Bill didn't know what our obsession was and wanted to take the Amiga name and move it to this Intent platform. That was his "Intent".

Quote:

The platform is so small and dead that the developer Hyperion stopped development and moved to the larger 68k AmigaOS market to return to AmigaOS profitability.

They didn't stop development. Development continued behind the scenes. But they do control when updates get released.

Quote:

Watch THEA500 embarrass the AmigaNOne and it is just scratching the surface of the potential market.

The mini or the maxi? THEA500 is targeted at people who lived in the past and played with an A500 or some Amiga. That should be fairly easy if the point is a computer that goes back 30 years in the past and never moves on.

Last edited by Hypex on 08-Feb-2022 at 06:01 PM.

kolla Quote:

You write “native 68k performance” (whatever that means) and then go on to examplify this with ARM systems like raspberry pi and THEA500?

The marketing ideas of the Raspberry Pi and THEA500 show the way and that there is mass interest in affordable low end and footprint hardware. The Natami hardware thread with some 800,000 views as I recall with no advertising also hints at mass interest in the 68k Amiga. The ARM CPU architecture has cheaper up front development costs but developing the 68k architecture would garner more support from 68k fans, could be sold at a premium over ARM hardware as it is different and would avoid ARM licensing costs.

kolla Quote:

You are aware of PiStorm and Emu68?

Sure. It is emulation at 1/3 of the performance of low end hardware at best. It is similar to the virtual processor of AmigaNowhere even repeating the same mistake on low end ARM hardware.

OlafS25 Quote:

you write "competitively priced mass produced hardware"... that is the most important problem in my view

The Amiga name has been tarnished by failures and thieves but we are not talking about a huge some of money to mass produce low end hardware. I never tried nor was I worried about development financing when I was part of the Apollo team trying to prepare for a professional future and ASIC. One customer of mass produced embedded hardware could pay production costs even if there was not enough interest in retro 68k hardware. The problem for me was always finding professional team players in the Amiga community I could invest in and recommend others to invest in. From what I have heard from Michele Battilana, he is a professional team player while Ben Hermans, Trevor Dickinson and Gunnar von Boehn are not. Neither have I given up completely on the Apollo project or should I say the extension of the Natami project. I like what I have seen from Thomas, Jens and you Olaf. Beware of leaders who require complete loyalty and sabotage team work. The Natami project should have gone places years ago. All it needed was an ASIC and other cost reductions. Sadly, other powers in the Amiga community have seen the Natami and Vampire/Apollo hardware as a threat to the status quo of continued failure in their entrenched niches. A FPGA based CPU has inferior performance to an emulated CPU on similarly priced commodity hardware but an ASIC CPU can outperform old PPC CPUs while costing a fraction of the price. The AmigaNOne road blocks may be lifted and the path ahead may become clear under the new Amiga Corporation. It's too bad someone blocked the preparation for an ASIC. Some people's foresight is better than other people's hindsight and some arrogant people just don't listen.

OlafS25 Quote:

I would add another option... Michal is working on emu68 for PiStorm. If I understand him correctly the final goal of him is emu68 running indepently on RPi so you could f.e. run Aros or AmigaOS with lots of features like RTG on RPi not needing any host system or emulator. That would be a cool little toy. The only thing that is not there would be a chipset. Games would only run when using the OS and not directly hitting hardware. A little like on AmigaOS running on PPC without added emulator.

I respect Michal and his hard work but 1/3 low end CPU performance and lack of chipset compatibility is not, in my opinion, competitive enough to bring the Amiga back. The result is lower performance than AmigaNOne hardware with similar compatibility and only a much cheaper price. A 68k ASIC SoC can give superior Amiga performance and compatibility at a similar price if mass produced.

@matthey,

I really think your correct.
There are only a few choices to move on. Change to different Architecture, and all code is obsolete and is a very expensive move, 10's or 100's of millions $. Emulation is ok if you want percentage of increase. traditional accelerators are good but for a limit. Still A bit better than 100 MIPs on Vampire. Next choice after that is when ready, Asic that FPGA to at least 1Ghz, Now, we're talking MIPs May not be pretty, but we can club the OS into submission, Instantly, then we have something!

At that point with this skinny OS we can blow any old system away....

Chris

@matthey

Quote:

Future Amiga platform + native 68k performance and compatibility + Amiga chipset compatibility with enhancements + modern I/O ports + competitively priced mass produced hardware These are the minimum requirements I believe are necessary to attempt another revival of the Amiga platform.

From a hardware standpoint, I agree.

But the goal of the revival is not just the return of a "pulse", it also needs a raison d'être to sustain itself in the broader computing context.

In parallel, there needs to be a software component to the revival initiative.
In the late '90s it was all about virtualisation: Write Once, Run Anywhere. It makes sense from a pure business aspect. Running applications on as many hardware platforms with minimal repeated (billable) work. So it's no surprise that part of Amiga Inc's plan was to have a highly portable framework.

Nowadays most people familiar with e subject know that it is about the developers.
When the developers are happy, then the development community grows. And a growing happy development community is good for business.

The Future Amiga platform software
+ Updated SDK + IDE to entice new developers
+ Optimisation for a specific easy-to-learn programming language (like what Apple did with Swift)
+ Updated OS with 64bit and threaded processes support
+ Inclusion of graphics APIs in OS, e.g. Vulkan
+ Software portal for developers to commercialise their work

Then to kick things off, it will go a long way for the revival team to write a few cool apps on the revival Amiga HW + OS, using the SDK, and sold through the portal. To show what is achievable. NeXT/Apple did this repeatedly.

Before you know it, we can have our first 68k21C dev conference.

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