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Hondo 
Amiga legal situation 2022
Posted on 17-Apr-2022 9:56:43
#1 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2003
Posts: 1370
From: Denmark

Does anybody know what the actual legal situation about Amiga/AmigaOS/A-Eon/Hyperion is now?

The lack of communication from the people who are fighting this battle, is beyond any comprehension!

I mean if you actually want to win this battle and want to have a market afterwards, then there should be more outgoing communication, talk about the situation, and future plans, etc.

Come forward you people who have a say in all this.

The Amiga spirit are slowly dying here...

Last edited by Hondo on 18-Apr-2022 at 05:05 AM.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Legal situation 2022
Posted on 17-Apr-2022 10:09:37
#2 ]
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Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Quote:

Hondo wrote:
Does anybody know what the actual legal situation about Amiga/AmigaOS/A-Eon/Hyperion is now?



CERTAINLY FRIEND HONDO, HERE ARE SOME COURT DOCUMENTS








#MRJM

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amigang 
Re: Legal situation 2022
Posted on 17-Apr-2022 10:43:59
#3 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1931
From: Cheshire, England

@Hondo

I think its very likely due to the legal situation they cant say anything as otherwise it might be used ageist them.

But your right I would love an update to some of the big project Hyperion / A-EON / Cloanto are up to.

OS3.2...whats the plan now, and will it lead to OS3.3? what else do they plan with the classic OS?, OS4.2 will it ever happen?, Enhance software next update what will it be? A1222 any update, System 54 any update?, liberoffice port any update?, Cloanto future Plans, Amiga Forever on any future platforms or any other big plans, A500 maxi will it happen?, and other projects.

Lets face though, the community lead plans/projects are just as important, PiStorm 32, Apollo OS, Amiberry Updates (Pimiga 3.0 / Amikit XE 12?), Emu68, A1200 Plus, Amiga Mags back in shops etc.

So no matter what / who get the rights to call them self Amiga and if all the big projects fail we still got a lot to look forward to.

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number6 
Re: Legal situation 2022
Posted on 17-Apr-2022 13:18:30
#4 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11479
From: In the village

@Hondo

In no particular order:

Last known info on Hyperion's status

Read the post following the link, since the document is in Dutch.

A-Eon is not a party to the lawsuits.

AmigaOS is still in limbo re:3.x, as it is still part of the lawsuits.

Amiga is held up on all fronts because of the lawsuits.

TheA500 Mini is the best current example of what -can- be done given the above.

Anything else would require more specificity to your questions. And no...do not expect any of the principals to start communicating about any of this.

Edit: added Mini for clarity

#6

Last edited by number6 on 17-Apr-2022 at 01:39 PM.

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ne_one 
Re: Legal situation 2022
Posted on 17-Apr-2022 17:03:56
#5 ]
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Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 905
From: Unknown

@number6

Quote:
TheA500 Mini is the best current example of what -can- be done given the above.


Has there been any mention of the projected sales of these units?

It's painful that it's taken a third party to navigate this mess to capitalize on the nostalgia craze.

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number6 
Re: Legal situation 2022
Posted on 17-Apr-2022 18:14:42
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11479
From: In the village

@ne_one

I've not seen any projections in print.

But considering the U.S. market is going to be a mere fraction of the market from the initial release, they may just have to consider it a bonus.

Checked a few utubers for views, which exceeds a million now. How that translates to sales I can't say.

#6

Last edited by number6 on 17-Apr-2022 at 06:33 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Legal situation 2022
Posted on 17-Apr-2022 18:24:11
#7 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10924
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Hondo

Last I read about it, bearing in mind I care less about the legal situation and care more for actually using my OS4 system, this is what I could acertain:

Hyperion is stil in court with Cloanto. Or in bed and sleeping with the enemy. Wait they must be getting divorced. It's taking months. I think they are playing a legal version of Dungeons and Dragons with no end in sight.

AmigaKit is making it's own copy of MorphOS. Well they are basing it on OS4 which is built on AmigaOS. And since MorphOS is a clone or close copy of AmigaOS, logically speaking, AmigaKit doing their own copy of AmigaOS is effectively making another MorphOS and it is on PPC. How many more Amiga distros do we need? I've tested AmigaDOS scripts that fail on both MorphDOS and AmigaKitDOS commands. So it's already similar. In fact running "Version MORPHOS" with an AmigaKitOS patched version of OS4 returns a false postive. So, the AmigaKit copy of MorphOS is already working very well.

While the orignal MorphOS is being ported to AMD64 or some such, there's no present evidence that AmigaKit are writing their copy of MorphOS to be portable to little endian, to run on ARM, or run on any reasonably priced system. Despite this, they are pushing forward, and consider it worth the work to copy MorphOS again. Yes, I could have said AROS, but who runs it in PPC now days? And unless AROS PPC can run 68K code directly it's out of the race.

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matthey 
Re: Legal situation 2022
Posted on 17-Apr-2022 19:58:09
#8 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1684
From: Kansas

#6 Quote:

I've not seen any projections in print.

But considering the U.S. market is going to be a mere fraction of the market from the initial release, they may just have to consider it a bonus.

Checked a few utubers for views, which exceeds a million now. How that translates to sales I can't say.


I tried to tell people years ago that the 68k Amiga was popular enough to make an ASIC and even tried to make it happen. It was easy enough to see based on Natami popularity. I believe the right Amiga product with better value could sell in the millions of units where THEA500 toy will likely only sell hundreds of thousands of units. Will the elite road blocks still be trying to sell a few hundred PPC Amigas as they ignore reality until all opportunities to make the Amiga great again are gone?

A return of the Amiga as a general purpose computer instead of only a game toy is what is needed. I recently watched a youtube video of several retro bloggers and collectors about the future of gaming, especially retro gaming.

An Honest Chat About Retro Gaming - (feat LGR, Kim Justice and Modern Vintage Gamer)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bF9bkpcJsA

They were asked the question of what system they would choose if they narrowed their collection of systems down to just one. Three of them said Amiga with the Amiga 1200 mentioned a couple of times.

https://youtu.be/8bF9bkpcJsA?t=4254

There is a shortage of AGA Amigas and these old systems are dying which they mention in other parts of the video about retro hardware in general. Prices are going crazy for some of the retro stuff but most people don't have the money to compete with serious collectors. A copy of the Amiga game Moonstone was mentioned as selling for 300. Another interesting mention was piracy as a means of preservation for retro gaming.

https://youtu.be/8bF9bkpcJsA?t=1960

Some closed hardware and digital services have lost support for systems just a few generations old. The Amiga was an open system but the hardware and software is not as easily accessible as it should be for a reasonable price. That is where THEA500 does a nice job with the convenience of a nice game pack. It is possible to do better with a more open general purpose computer with online game download from a store. The solution is Amigas much like the original and mostly compatible but with enhanced features and this can be made really cheap with mass production today.

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number6 
Re: Legal situation 2022
Posted on 17-Apr-2022 20:23:30
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11479
From: In the village

@matthey

Previously I linked to the only vid I've seen so far by someone who admittedly had never seen/used an Amiga.
Here

Do you see a difference between what the retro market (above) expects from TheA500 mini vs what a former Amiga user expects?

#6

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amigang 
Re: Legal situation 2022
Posted on 17-Apr-2022 20:54:53
#10 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1931
From: Cheshire, England

@ne_one

Quote:
Has there been any mention of the projected sales of these units?


A500 mini Facebook group they started a google forum to track the serial numbers,
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16TDBlasapB46t-zPLHx2F2KIRi3yHdNi7s50TrY74fY/edit#gid=0

So far the highest looks to be 53,500 and they not launched in the US yet, so my gut feeling is they likely made somewhere between 75,000 to 100,000 units.

They not sold out any where I can see here in the uk, plus just checked its at 55 in Amazon best seller video game charts, I believe the day it got released it did get number 1, likely all the pre-order being processed.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Best-Sellers-PC-Video-Games/zgbs/videogames/ref=zg_bs_pg_2?_encoding=UTF8&pg=2

My gut feeling is there selling ok, but maybe not as good as it should be, I think its a kinda odd time to launch in April, Im willing to bet they sell well at Christmas, specially if they get the price under a 100.

Last edited by amigang on 17-Apr-2022 at 08:57 PM.

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number6 
Re: Legal situation 2022
Posted on 17-Apr-2022 21:01:07
#11 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11479
From: In the village

@amigang

Keep in mind they have inventory on container ships just like everyone else.
Darren even mentioned that in the December interview with Chris.
In other words, I'm not certain you can just pick a time for product release based on a holiday season.

#6

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matthey 
Re: Legal situation 2022
Posted on 17-Apr-2022 21:43:23
#12 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1684
From: Kansas

#6 Quote:

Do you see a difference between what the retro market (above) expects from TheA500 mini vs what a former Amiga user expects?


I have mentioned before. In general, THEA500 Mini is not so much targeted at existing diehard Amiga users but ex-Amiga users and fans which are part of the retro gaming market. THEA500 Mini is probably what ex-Amiga user fair weather fans expect which is a convenient device with a nice game collection. I believe the retro bloggers from the video I posted are more likely classified as diehard Amiga users. Like many Amiga users here on the forum, we have superior hardware setups for playing Amiga games which THEA500 Mini is not good enough to replace. I have been hoping for better full sized Amiga hardware than THEA500 Mini guts in THEA500 Maxi but that is not likely to happen unless Amiga businesses start cooperating instead of wasting resources on lawsuits.

amigang Quote:

A500 mini Facebook group they started a google forum to track the serial numbers,
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16TDBlasapB46t-zPLHx2F2KIRi3yHdNi7s50TrY74fY/edit#gid=0

So far the highest looks to be 53,500 and they not launched in the US yet, so my gut feeling is they likely made somewhere between 75,000 to 100,000 units.

They not sold out any where I can see here in the uk, plus just checked its at 55 in Amazon best seller video game charts, I believe the day it got released it did get number 1, likely all the pre-order being processed.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Best-Sellers-PC-Video-Games/zgbs/videogames/ref=zg_bs_pg_2?_encoding=UTF8&pg=2


If the numbers are reliable, it did better from preorders than all of AmigaOne PPC units sold ever which I predicted. It's up there with Gran Turismo 7 for the PS4 which is not bad considering the Amiga hasn't been advertised in decades.

amigang Quote:

My gut feeling is there selling ok, but maybe not as good as it should be, I think its a kinda odd time to launch in April, Im willing to bet they sell well at Christmas, specially if they get the price under a 100.


If they put THEA500 Mini on sale for 50% off for the Christmas season, I expect they could see sales of 250,000+ in the first year. That would be better than the CD32 launch which was considered a successful launch.

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Hondo 
Re: Legal situation 2022
Posted on 18-Apr-2022 5:54:27
#13 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2003
Posts: 1370
From: Denmark

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Great images - sadly I think you're spot on.

Damn the Amiga never deserved all this legal shit.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Legal situation 2022
Posted on 18-Apr-2022 6:51:12
#14 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Quote:

Hondo wrote:
@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Great images - sadly I think you're spot on.

Damn the Amiga never deserved all this legal shit.



Appreciated, friend Hondo.

Well, it's Commodore who didn't deserve it, to begin with.
Legal manure has become C='s saddening legacy.

If it wasn't for the Goulds and the Hermanses who plague this beautiful Earth of ours,
we could have lived in a world where Commodore was the third, soulful pole standing tall between that aseptic soulless Apple stuff, and the grey cursed mess that PCs are (Windows, Linux, Xgraxgrxr, doesn't really matter)


/m

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Nonefornow 
Re: Legal situation 2022
Posted on 18-Apr-2022 14:54:40
#15 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2013
Posts: 339
From: Greater Los Angeles Area

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Quote:
Well, it's Commodore who didn't deserve it, to begin with.
Legal manure has become C='s saddening legacy.


There's Commodore and CommodoreOther and CommodoreAmiga.

The PetVic20C64C16Plus4C128 community does not seem to be so fragmented and litigious as the other two.

The CommodoreOther with its phones and other electronics stuff it's so removed from the Commodore community that's makes itself not relevant anyway.

The Commodore Amiga community is a ? for me. That's why I keep my real Amigas updated, lubricated, and maintained.

Last edited by Nonefornow on 18-Apr-2022 at 02:55 PM.
Last edited by Nonefornow on 18-Apr-2022 at 02:55 PM.

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saimon69 
Re: Legal situation 2022
Posted on 18-Apr-2022 17:33:50
#16 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2007
Posts: 304
From: Los Angeles, CA

@Nonefornow

Quote:

Nonefornow wrote:


The Commodore Amiga community is a ? for me. That's why I keep my real Amigas updated, lubricated, and maintained.


Just a '?' ?
Thought was a '?#!*!?#?' in pure Q-bert-ese -_-

Last edited by saimon69 on 18-Apr-2022 at 05:34 PM.

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agami 
Re: Legal situation 2022
Posted on 19-Apr-2022 1:44:49
#17 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1288
From: Melbourne, Australia

When has a custody battle gone too far?
When the children have all grown up and started having children of their own.

Can't see any IP that is valuable enough to justify this level of fighting, nor a potentially sizable market with any reasonable revenue returns.
At this point, at best it's an argument based on principle, and at worst its personal vendettas and capriciousness. The latter being the worst kinds of divorce. E.g. I don't care to have it as much as I care for you not to have it.

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V8 
Re: Amiga legal situation 2022
Posted on 19-Apr-2022 2:08:25
#18 ]
Member
Joined: 30-Mar-2022
Posts: 72
From: Unknown

@Hondo

TL;DR The lawsuits will end once there is nothing of value left to fight for.
There are only two things worth fighting over: mini retro console (this fight os over) and OS4 for Tabor.



No one involved will speak publically on an ongoing litigation.
But I think we are probably coming towards an end to all the lawsuits as they become pointless.

Ben is basically running out of things he can try to blackmail the other companies about. And when that happens and there are no longer any prospects going forward I guess the lawsuits will be settled and Hyperion will be dissolved.

The trademarks, thea500mini has shown the marks no longer matter. Everyone is hyped about it, everyone knows it is a retro amiga and everyone calls it an amiga. Still, the product very carefully does not reference any of the trademarks. It is successful hence no one cares about the marks anymore.
For the mini, cloanto are not even involved in any other way than that they provide the OS to the third party that sells it. Maybe because if Coanto had developed and sold an obvious product like a retro mini Ben would sue them immediately.
Anyway, this shows that the marks no longer matter and are close to worthless so why fight for them?
What will Ben use them for in the unlikely event he gets them? He will launch his own new REAL-amiga-mini? Sorry but too late for that now.


The only other real revenue stream I could see would be OS4 for Tabor. It is obvious that AEON and Hyperion are not on good terms anymore, and OS4 for tabor is held hostage because of it. Why else do you think AEON is rewriting perfectly fine OS4 components from scratch? Just for fun?
No, IMHO it is because if they ship OS4 then Ben will sue them immediately. Didn't they already let the agreements to distribute OS4 lapse some years ago?
OS4 on Tabor has been demonstrated and shown as (in OS4 terms) fully functional several years ago but it will still not ship. I don't believe in any of the "it is not ready yet".
OS4 has always been shipped in incomplete state since the very first relabeled board by Alan, missing ethernet drivers, missing sound, missing dma, missing drivers for Xena. Shipping an incomplete version of OS4 is normal in amiga land. So I don't buy the "it is not ready" argument at all.


Maybe if the lawsuits end and Hyperion folds Tabor and OS4 can ship the very next day to the eagerly awaiting customers and AEON will not have to rewrite OS4 from scratch. Lol.

Last edited by V8 on 19-Apr-2022 at 02:27 AM.
Last edited by V8 on 19-Apr-2022 at 02:12 AM.
Last edited by V8 on 19-Apr-2022 at 02:11 AM.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Amiga legal situation 2022
Posted on 19-Apr-2022 3:11:05
#19 ]
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Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Quote:

The only other real revenue stream I could see would be OS4 for Tabor






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matthey 
Re: Amiga legal situation 2022
Posted on 19-Apr-2022 4:37:49
#20 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1684
From: Kansas

V8 Quote:

TL;DR The lawsuits will end once there is nothing of value left to fight for.
There are only two things worth fighting over: mini retro console (this fight os over) and OS4 for Tabor.


From my understanding or lack thereof, there is no "fighting over" AmigaOS 4 for Tabor. Cloanto/Amiga Corporation has recognized the contractual rights of Hyperion to develop and sell AmigaOS 4 for PPC. There shouldn't be any problem with THEA500 Mini for retro 68k use either but it is possible that Hyperion has a problem with the use of IP like "AmigaOS" and appears to have challenged other Amiga related IP perhaps in violation of the 2009 contractual agreement. Hyperion sold Amiga ROMs for retro 68k use and developed and sold 68k AmigaOS updates without licensing according to accusations. The selling of the 68k AmigaOS updates appears to have considerably more "value" for Hyperion than AmigaOS 4 for PPC including for Tabor.

V8 Quote:

No one involved will speak publically on an ongoing litigation.
But I think we are probably coming towards an end to all the lawsuits as they become pointless.

Ben is basically running out of things he can try to blackmail the other companies about. And when that happens and there are no longer any prospects going forward I guess the lawsuits will be settled and Hyperion will be dissolved.


I would describe it as a legal mess and Ben is good at stalling. COVID has introduced delays in the already slow court systems too.

V8 Quote:

The trademarks, thea500mini has shown the marks no longer matter. Everyone is hyped about it, everyone knows it is a retro amiga and everyone calls it an amiga. Still, the product very carefully does not reference any of the trademarks. It is successful hence no one cares about the marks anymore.
For the mini, cloanto are not even involved in any other way than that they provide the OS to the third party that sells it. Maybe because if Coanto had developed and sold an obvious product like a retro mini Ben would sue them immediately.
Anyway, this shows that the marks no longer matter and are close to worthless so why fight for them?
What will Ben use them for in the unlikely event he gets them? He will launch his own new REAL-amiga-mini? Sorry but too late for that now.


I believe Cloanto/Amiga Corporation could license "Amiga" branding now that they have acquired the Amiga Inc. IP but couldn't license it when Retro Games Ltd obtained the license. Just because the Amiga brand was not needed for the successful THEA500 Mini launch does not imply that Amiga branding is worthless even though it may be less valuable now.

V8 Quote:

The only other real revenue stream I could see would be OS4 for Tabor. It is obvious that AEON and Hyperion are not on good terms anymore, and OS4 for tabor is held hostage because of it. Why else do you think AEON is rewriting perfectly fine OS4 components from scratch? Just for fun?
No, IMHO it is because if they ship OS4 then Ben will sue them immediately. Didn't they already let the agreements to distribute OS4 lapse some years ago?
OS4 on Tabor has been demonstrated and shown as (in OS4 terms) fully functional several years ago but it will still not ship. I don't believe in any of the "it is not ready yet".
OS4 has always been shipped in incomplete state since the very first relabeled board by Alan, missing ethernet drivers, missing sound, missing dma, missing drivers for Xena. Shipping an incomplete version of OS4 is normal in amiga land. So I don't buy the "it is not ready" argument at all.


There may only be a few hundred copies of AmigaOS 4 for Tabor sold vs tens of thousands of copies of 68k AmigaOS which likely have much better profit margin. A-Eon may be reluctant to license IP from Hyperion that could be lost if the 2009 contract between Hyperion and Amiga Inc. was terminated. Without licensing between A-Eon and Hyperion for Tabor, Hyperion may be reluctant to develop and release AmigaOS 4 for Tabor.

V8 Quote:

Maybe if the lawsuits end and Hyperion folds Tabor and OS4 can ship the very next day to the eagerly awaiting customers and AEON will not have to rewrite OS4 from scratch. Lol.


Not likely. If Hyperion "folds", Amiga Corporation would likely claim ownership of AmigaOS 4 as already paid for by Amiga Inc. which they obtained. Some Hyperion software may not be classified as part of AmigaOS 4, some may revert to previous authors depending on contracts, some may be involved in lawsuits from authors who were not payed, etc. After any lawsuits are worked out, remaining Hyperion assets would likely be auctioned. This process could take longer than "the very next day" and A-Eon would not be guaranteed to end up with what they want from Hyperion.

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