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PosterThread
Rob 
Re: Port AmigaOS 4 to x86
Posted on 10-May-2022 20:07:50
#81 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6218
From: S.Wales

@Deaths_Head

Clauses in the 2009 settlement agreement prevent that from happening.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Port AmigaOS 4 to x86
Posted on 10-May-2022 20:34:08
#82 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12344
From: Norway

@Hypex

Quote:
AmigaWorld is slow! Despite being an old forum.


Big diffence in speed between Netsurf and Odyssey, not sure why that is,
Is just, simpler JS, or also something to do with the rendering engine, can be idea profile web browser and see there some small issues, that is slowing it down.

I don’t really use the web browser a lot, its kind of memory hungry, and the web browser on the PC has lot more 2d acceleration.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-May-2022 at 08:36 PM.

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QBit 
Re: Port AmigaOS 4 to x86
Posted on 10-May-2022 20:41:03
#83 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Jun-2018
Posts: 247
From: Unknown

@all

What about a new Company.. Pancake Corporation with a new Pancake Computer with 128 Bit Pancake Quantum CPU with Pancake Soundcard and accelerated Pancake GFX and a multi User Multi Threaded 128 Bit "Pancake OS 128"?

It should beat a Core i9 and an M1 and the best Nvidia AI @ 2,5 Watts of Electricity consumption!
And this Computer then sold for the Price of one Pancake!
Billions would buy it like Pancakes!
Just my 2 Cents!

Save the Planet!

The best Computer is in Power off Mode and Offline!!

The Action Front for the total Computer Shut Down!
AFCSD

Headed for the impossible.

There will never be a Computer again like the Amiga 4000/40

One day it will be sold for Millions!

The CPU and everything is not the Point anymore.. if the CPU and GPU or AI is Powerful enough you could emulate anything on any Kind of Platform by Software!

The Question is if there still will be skilled enough Coders that can blow Minds by Software Wizardry like the ones from Amiga Times!

33 Years from now the Amiga Copyrights Expire I think. Maybe some future Coders still remember the Amiga. Ill be dead then.

No Future!

If the World continues that way. with this War and Politics everywhere. the Babys of Today can be called Generation Bullshit!

Last edited by QBit on 10-May-2022 at 09:49 PM.
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Last edited by QBit on 10-May-2022 at 08:45 PM.

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Deaths_Head 
Re: Port AmigaOS 4 to x86
Posted on 10-May-2022 21:07:18
#84 ]
Member
Joined: 15-Apr-2005
Posts: 74
From: Unknown

@Rob

That's a shame. So basically AmigaOs is locked to Os4, no wonder they called it final edition. With no possibility of advancement, it's probably time to let it die. Screw these company's.

The parasitic solicitors & courts have killed the platforms future. At least I can enjoy my A500Mini, Amiga Forever, my CD32 & my A1200.

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BigD 
Re: Port AmigaOS 4 to x86
Posted on 10-May-2022 21:10:26
#85 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6622
From: UK

@Thread

A-EON have not renewed the OEM licensing contract with Hyperion and AmigaKit no longer stock Hyperion products. The A1222 Plus has no firm release date and Enhancer and System 54 development is the only way AmigaOS 4 will get any updates in the near future. It's not an environment conducive to a port to another ISA me thinks

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Port AmigaOS 4 to x86
Posted on 10-May-2022 22:00:11
#86 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12344
From: Norway

@QBit

"Copyrights Expire"? they don’t, like ownership no come and take your sofa, unless you permit it, or don’t report it to the police. Copyright is the distribution right.

“Trademarks” protects the names, they also don’t expire, but you can lose the trademark, if you don’t defend your right to use the trademark.

“Patens” protects how it’s made, they can expire, this is to prevent monopoly, competition is considered healthy.

There is no such thing as abandonware in the legal system. Something to keep in mind if your distributing large collections without consent.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Port AmigaOS 4 to x86
Posted on 10-May-2022 22:05:43
#87 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12344
From: Norway

@BigD

However, ACube-Systems sells Sam460’s with a legal copy of AmigaOS4.1.
buying AmigaONE-X5000’s is bit sketchier, due missing OEM license, can you can’t buy the X5000 version of AmigaOS4.1 from Hyperion’s web shop. Hyperion has kind forced buyers into piracy, from what I understand. So no OS updates from Hyperion if you buy a AmigaONE-X5000 system now.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-May-2022 at 10:06 PM.

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Neuf 
Re: Port AmigaOS 4 to x86
Posted on 10-May-2022 22:28:51
#88 ]
Member
Joined: 17-Apr-2017
Posts: 46
From: Unknown

@Deaths_Head

The question is"should amigaos4 be ported toX86?" the short answer is no. The long answer is maybe.
There is one fact that seems very clear to me. All NG systems including OS4 are EOL. V54 in my opinion is an entirely new OS. Trevor stated in his winter interview with Amiga-News that there would be two versions. One version would sit on top of OS4 like enhancer-the other would be completely stand alone. Subsequent conversations with some European developers suggest that only the stand alone version would be produced. Furthermore, they also stated that A-Eon computers will be purchased without the Hyperion license. We'll have wait and see about that one.

I have over the last three years, been following the activities of Team Core Linux. My opinion is that V54 is simply a wrapper of Enhancer software around a Linux Core. I could of course could be wrong about this, but my gut feeling is that this is the way Amigakit is going. The reason is fairly straightforward. First this would eliminate all Hyperion controlled code. It would also allow Amigakit to add additional code to the OS, or modify existing Linux code. Considering the large amount of work Team Core Linux has done with QEMU and KVM emulation of some software probably wouldn't be much of a problem.

One thing I have noticed about the comments on V54 is lack of mention of the chief feature of V54. The new Graphics subsystem is the "killer app" of V54. The new Graphics Subsystem will mean a very good web browser for the system. Secondly, gamers will jump for joy at the dramatically improved performance over OS4. Lastly but not least are the benefits that coders will reap.

Hopefully, Amigakit's team will be able to deliver on this promising new OS.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Port AmigaOS 4 to x86
Posted on 10-May-2022 22:38:09
#89 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12344
From: Norway

@Neuf

System54 includes what Hyperion lost when did not pay there contractors, its not something on top of Linux, nor is it a complete AmigaOS4, its only parts of it, and rest has replaced / recreated, they like to own what they have, using AROS parts is not on the table.

Trever talks about System54 on AmiWest its so no secret, and don't need to speculate about it. There are other operations systems called system, I believe its temp name. MacOS was called System i believe once.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-May-2022 at 10:44 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-May-2022 at 10:42 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-May-2022 at 10:39 PM.

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Neuf 
Re: Port AmigaOS 4 to x86
Posted on 10-May-2022 22:43:51
#90 ]
Member
Joined: 17-Apr-2017
Posts: 46
From: Unknown

@kolla
Maybe we should pay Ben $20000 in Monopoly to port OS3.1 tpPPC

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V8 
Re: Port AmigaOS 4 to x86
Posted on 10-May-2022 23:07:42
#91 ]
Member
Joined: 30-Mar-2022
Posts: 56
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

System54 includes what Hyperion lost when did not pay there contractors, its not something on top of Linux, nor is it a complete AmigaOS4, its only parts of it, and rest has replaced / recreated, they like to own what they have, using AROS parts is not on the table.

Trever talks about System54 on AmiWest its so no secret, and don't need to speculate about it. There are other operations systems called system, I believe its temp name. MacOS was called System i believe once.


Hyperion never paid almost any developer. Most of them did it for "the cause" or "the fame"
and Hyperion merely licensed the code. Not even paying anything for the license even.

So almost none of the code in OS4 is actually owned Hyperion and A-EON merely need to ask for permission of the individual contributors.
But a very small set of utilities ARE owned by Hyperion and these obviously needs to be completely re-written from scratch to remove any "black curse of Hyperion".
Once they have a working system that is 100% free of any Hyperion code then Trabor will be released.

Herman even lost control of the kernel itself. Because in his super strategic legal mind he pre-emtively got a legal decision that Hyperion has no ownership or control of OS4 Exec and it all were the sole ownership of the Friedens, who later sold this to someone that is NOT Hyperion/Hermans.
Smart move Hermans, you brilliant super-lawyer with NATO connections! Lol.

At this point there are ZERO people working on Hyperion's OS4 kernel. The Friedens or Ssolie for sure will never have anything ever to do with Hermans again. No other development happens either except for sporadic trivial bugfixes to trivial components that some unpaid enthusiast implements when they have time. But active development? No.

Hyperion/Hermans have had falling outs with so many people/companies/individual-developers and burnt so many bridges that no one wants to have anything to do with them anymore.
Thus the A-EON work on System54. System54 needs to reach a state where there is ZERO code and components that are owned by Hyperion before it Tabor can be released.


This is all it is about. To release Tabor they need a system where everything Hyperion is removed because
1, they need to be able to fix bugs and Hyperion can not commit to this
2, they never under any circumstances want to have any business dealings or dependencies with Hyperion ever again.
3, History shows that any money you give to Hyperion as part of a contract will immediately be reallocated to Hermans personal legal fund to sue the world and none of the money will go to fulfill the contract.

These are requirements for Tabor to ship.

Last edited by V8 on 10-May-2022 at 11:13 PM.
Last edited by V8 on 10-May-2022 at 11:11 PM.

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V8 
Re: Port AmigaOS 4 to x86
Posted on 11-May-2022 1:06:03
#92 ]
Member
Joined: 30-Mar-2022
Posts: 56
From: Unknown

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote:
@Thread

A-EON have not renewed the OEM licensing contract with Hyperion and AmigaKit no longer stock Hyperion products. The A1222 Plus has no firm release date and Enhancer and System 54 development is the only way AmigaOS 4 will get any updates in the near future. It's not an environment conducive to a port to another ISA me thinks


True, but the bigger question before talking about porting OS4 to a different platform.


1, Does the license that Hyperion have with the Friedens even allow porting ExecSG to a different ISA ?
2, Does Hyperion have anyone around that have the required skill to do such a port?



@Hypex

Quote:


Actually yes there is and it's right in front of you. Browsing! The browsers may not be up to scratch but browsing on OS4 is too slow. Facebook used to be ok on my X1000 but now days that's almost impossible and even AmigaWorld is slow! Despite being an old forum. Videos look like Doom on the Amiga but worse. So yes it needs power.

Compiling, rendering, video or any other CPU intensive works needs power.


There are no native OS4 software for this. It is all ports of old versions of Linux applications.
Why not run the latest version of these apps straight under Linux instead? They work better there.

And who is going to port "the browser" to OS4 when it has switched to x86_64?
No one, except the Friedens, have managed to port a semi-modern browser to OS4 in the last 20 years. I don't understand why there would suddenly be people with the required skills available to port it just because you switch to x86_64.

There is no one with the required skills around to do these of ports anymore.


@Hypex
Quote:

The X1000 dual core CPU is wasted on OS4 but an older single core could have been more expensive to source.


And if you port OS4 to x86_64 then there will be 5 or more unused cores instead. Is that progress?

It does not matter anyway since OS4 will never go x86_64.

There is basically no one around with the skills to do this anymore as a hobby and Hyperion does not have the money to hire someone to do it.

Last edited by V8 on 11-May-2022 at 01:28 AM.

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agami 
Re: Port AmigaOS 4 to x86
Posted on 11-May-2022 3:02:47
#93 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1156
From: Melbourne, Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
"Copyrights Expire"? they don’t

They absolutely do.

Though the copyright acts differ from country to country, I know that in the US and in Australia it is "Life of the author + 70 years".

The main aim is to stop unauthorized commercialization of someone's original work. One is of course free to create derivative works based on other's original work, thereby creating new originals.

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BigD 
Re: Port AmigaOS 4 to x86
Posted on 11-May-2022 8:04:44
#94 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6622
From: UK

@V8

Quote:
System54 needs to reach a state where there is ZERO code and components that are owned by Hyperion before it Tabor can be released.


Well I guess it's a plan!?! I think a better one would be to wrestle the AmigaOS project and license away from Hyperion if they no longer have the funds or will to progress with it!

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bhabbott 
Re: Port AmigaOS 4 to x86
Posted on 11-May-2022 12:37:49
#95 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Jun-2018
Posts: 229
From: Aotearoa

@V8

Quote:

V8 wrote:

...the bigger question before talking about porting OS4 to a different platform.


1, Does the license that Hyperion have with the Friedens even allow porting ExecSG to a different ISA ?
2, Does Hyperion have anyone around that have the required skill to do such a port?
The bigger question is, why would those who do have the skill bother? OS4 was designed for NG 'Amiga' systems. Porting it to a different platform seems redundant when that platform already has a perfectly good OS.

Quote:
Actually yes there is and it's right in front of you. Browsing! The browsers may not be up to scratch but browsing on OS4 is too slow. Facebook used to be ok on my X1000 but now days that's almost impossible and even AmigaWorld is slow! Despite being an old forum. Videos look like Doom on the Amiga but worse. So yes it needs power.

Amigaworld is not slow for me in IBrowse on the Vampire 600, and it's acceptable with a 50MHz 030 on the A1200. But even my much more powerful PCs struggle with some modern content. Realistically, browsers will never be 'up to scratch' on any Amiga platform.

My non-Microsoft solution to the browser problem was to run Firefox on Linux. But Firefox's popularity has dropped into single digits so who knows how long content providers will continue to support it? For Amiga stuff and some other places I regularly frequent I use IBrowse in OS3 where possible, simply because despite being slower and less compatible it's still faster and more convenient when using the Amiga (eg. the time from turning on the computer to getting onto Aminet and downloading the latest files is much shorter). I have also started using AmiGemini for more focused news updates without having to deal with obtrusive advertising etc.

Today's web browsers are behemoths whose real purpose is to push advertising content. I won't complain about that because it is what is keeping the web 'free'. But we don't have to be slaves to it. I have a PC set up for the sole purpose of watching online TV programs. The entire setup cost me nothing because all the hardware was given to me and Linux Lite is a free download. My other (also free) Linux PC is used for general web browsing when my Amigas aren't up to it (YouTube videos etc.). Having to run two computers to do everything I want is no big deal, and the PC also gets used for making backups and extra storage from the Amiga.

Quote:
Compiling, rendering, video or any other CPU intensive works needs power.
I remember a time when doing such things took ages and we just had to put up with it. Today we can simply use a powerful PC - and why not? But I mostly program in 68k assembler, which only takes seconds to compile large projects natively when using a good assembler. Small to medium size C projects compile in reasonable time with SASC on a 50MHz 030.

Modern PCs are so fast that there is little incentive to reduce bloat. I recently ported a Z80 assembler called zmac to Amiga OS3, as part of my efforts to do more cross-development on the Amiga. It works fine, but on my 50MHz 030 it takes 20 seconds to assemble a mere 4k of object code. Luckily most Z80 programs are not much larger than that, so it is acceptable. But had I written the assembler from scratch it could have been much faster. The problem of course is that doing so would probably use more time than I would save from quicker compilation.

That's the general problem we face today - do you port existing code and put up with excessive bloat to save development time, or write efficient code from scratch that could take a lot longer? I favor the latter, but sometimes I just want to get a job done and can't be bothered. Sometimes too it's easier to just use a PC and be done with it. But that doesn't mean the Amiga is lacking. Just like in the workshop where depending on the size of the job I might use a hand drill, a battery drill or a mains-powered drill press, I don't consider my Amigas 'inadequate' because they can't do the biggest jobs.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Port AmigaOS 4 to x86
Posted on 11-May-2022 17:52:58
#96 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12344
From: Norway

@agami

So, your saying Coca Cola name will be gone, or can’t be protected?

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paolone 
Re: Port AmigaOS 4 to x86
Posted on 11-May-2022 20:25:24
#97 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1128
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@agami

So, your saying Coca Cola name will be gone, or can’t be protected?


Coca Cola is a BRAND NAME, there is NO copyright in brand names, is a totally different matter of intellectual property. Its recipe is a industrial secret and many connected technologies are protected under patents: patents are different from both brand names and copyrights. Brand names live until someone actually uses them, then can be sold to other individuals who can protect them and renew protection.

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cdimauro 
Re: Port AmigaOS 4 to x86
Posted on 11-May-2022 21:37:22
#98 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3084
From: Germany

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
No, it's very simple: everyone can do whatever he/she wants with AROS sources, with only one constraint: release the sources with the changes if you publish products which used them.


Yeah. Nah. Thay ain't going to do that. They don't want open sources. They want to keep it private. And be able to edit it

I can understand it if you have some "secret sauce", but not for just command-line tools.
Quote:
Quote:
I don't think that A-EON is planning to release its sources, even for those simple command-line tools.


No, but again, why? Neither A-EON nor AmigaKit produce OS4. It's not their OS. They write software and produce drivers for it. Since FE there has been some kind of symbiotic relationship as OS4 needs Enhancer software to fully function and Enhancer needs OS4 to work.

Of course, when it comes to producing a boot CD, I can see why. Since FE cannot boot with newer hardware nor is a boot CD/USB image creator included. Šespite OS3.9 having one for floppy.

But even before the System54 boot creator is available, there is now a divide in the OS4 community, with AmigaOS 4 and EnhancerOS 4.

You can understand yourself how already bad is the situation, and why doesn't make sense to stick on closing the sources (as well as reinventing the wheel).

Sys54 needs more collaboration, if it want to have some chance to survive.

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cdimauro 
Re: Port AmigaOS 4 to x86
Posted on 11-May-2022 21:50:11
#99 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3084
From: Germany

@bhabbott

Quote:

bhabbott wrote:
@V8

Quote:

V8 wrote:

Compiling, rendering, video or any other CPU intensive works needs power.
I remember a time when doing such things took ages and we just had to put up with it. Today we can simply use a powerful PC - and why not? But I mostly program in 68k assembler, which only takes seconds to compile large projects natively when using a good assembler. Small to medium size C projects compile in reasonable time with SASC on a 50MHz 030.

Modern PCs are so fast that there is little incentive to reduce bloat. I recently ported a Z80 assembler called zmac to Amiga OS3, as part of my efforts to do more cross-development on the Amiga. It works fine, but on my 50MHz 030 it takes 20 seconds to assemble a mere 4k of object code. Luckily most Z80 programs are not much larger than that, so it is acceptable. But had I written the assembler from scratch it could have been much faster. The problem of course is that doing so would probably use more time than I would save from quicker compilation.

That's the general problem we face today - do you port existing code and put up with excessive bloat to save development time, or write efficient code from scratch that could take a lot longer? I favor the latter, but sometimes I just want to get a job done and can't be bothered. Sometimes too it's easier to just use a PC and be done with it. But that doesn't mean the Amiga is lacking. Just like in the workshop where depending on the size of the job I might use a hand drill, a battery drill or a mains-powered drill press, I don't consider my Amigas 'inadequate' because they can't do the biggest jobs.

What you're calling a "general problem" in reality is your personal problem with computers AND software evolution.

That's because you basically remained closed in your cave, continuing to do what you learned best in the past: assembly.

What you called as "bloat" in reality are infrastructures / more abstractions that allowed software to do more things for customers, not taking ages to have a concrete, usable product.

This is the reason why higher-level languages gained A LOT of interest and are so widely used. And the same happens to framework, libraries, etc..

I personally don't miss at all assembly languages, and nowadays I'm a super happy Python coder.

And that's because the only thing which I'm interesting in is solving my problems as fast as possible, since time is the only thing which cannot bought in the market.

In fact, I also write assemblers, emulators, etc. in Python. I know that they are superslow (1 / 100 compared to C or something like that), but I/we have enough computing power to make their execution acceptable.

So, I invite you to exit from your cave and discover how the world became. And better enjoy the remaining time that you have.

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OlafS25 
Re: Port AmigaOS 4 to x86
Posted on 12-May-2022 11:21:42
#100 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6171
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

bloat (in my personal limited experience) are class libraries and dependencies that make it much easier today to develop more sophisticated applications without reinventing every wheel. So "Hello world" is 30 MB but then the growth is much slower. It is a matter of calculation... investing lots of time in a lean program or simply expecting better hardware. And even smartphones are very powerful today.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 12-May-2022 at 01:03 PM.

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