@cdimauro

If you really don’t believe gas and diesel fumes cause cancer and are a health hazard I don’t know what else to say. There is so much overwhelming evidence about this fact it just takes seconds to find. Tons of scientists have already studied this in depth and came to this conclusion a long time ago. You putting your head in the sand and denying won’t make it magically go away. Your position reminds me of some cigarette smokers that deny that cigarettes cause lung cancer. The knife comparison does not make sense. You would have to physically stab yourself to do harm. With emissions if you just stood there or fell asleep while the engine was running in a enclosed space it would kill you. It’s very obvious that gas fumes are harmful. Not realizing this is kind of ridiculous.

I guess some people just don’t like change or progress.

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@Deniil715

Quote:

So how many of us Amigans drive a Tesla?

Almost none, probably, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a high correlation between Tesla drivers and Apple users.

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@DiscreetFX

Quote:

DiscreetFX wrote: @cdimauro If you really don’t believe gas and diesel fumes cause cancer and are a health hazard I don’t know what else to say. There is so much overwhelming evidence about this fact it just takes seconds to find. Tons of scientists have already studied this in depth and came to this conclusion a long time ago. You putting your head in the sand and denying won’t make it magically go away. Your position reminds me of some cigarette smokers that deny that cigarettes cause lung cancer.

I haven't said this. I ask you to do NOT put on my mouth words that I have NOT written (and neither thought).

You're mystifying: lost your arguments (if you had any)?
Quote:

The knife comparison does not make sense. You would have to physically stab yourself to do harm. With emissions if you just stood there or fell asleep while the engine was running in a enclosed space it would kill you. It’s very obvious that gas fumes are harmful. Not realizing this is kind of ridiculous.

Unfortunately you didn't realize the meaning of the comparison. But it doesn't surprises me, at this point.

Just an hint: nobody deliberately stabs himself with a knife. As nobody deliberately is running an engine in a closed environment and staying there.

Unless you're insane.

But if the tools are used properly, then there's no accident.

Got the point now, or should I draw a picture for you?
Quote:

I guess some people just don’t like change or progress.

You're again mystifying, since I NEVER said something like that.

This happens when people like you are so desperate because you cannot find other ways to sustain your argument in the discussion.

Or you're simply lacking proper text comprehension and/or logic. But, again, this is YOUR problem.

Now I want to see how long this farce should continue...

@DiscreetFX

Quote:

Gasoline causes cancer over time if exposed to it. This is not up for debate, it’s a fact. Want to prove it to yourself. Turn on your ICE car in your closed garage and stay there. You won’t try this test, want to guess why? It will kill you. Now what happens if you turn on an EV in your garage? Nothing, you could stand there all day and there’s no exhaust to kill you.

If I try your Gedankenexperiment, it is clear that I will not contract cancer. What will happen is that the combustion engine will consume oxygen and produce carbon dioxide. Assuming no air exchange is possible with the outside, it is likely that the carbon dioxide levels will approach lethal levels (4-5%) before the reduction in oxygen is particularly dangerous. Unless the car is very old or has faulty tuning and incomplete combustion it's not even likely that carbon monoxide will be the major contributing factor to my demise. Amazingly, I don't even need to start the car for this to happen eventually, it will just take longer because I produce my own CO2 emissions, so by your experimental conditions, an EV is just as deadly in the long run.

This experiment is, of course, complete lunacy. It does not prove that gasoline causes cancer, it proves that combustion (or just metabolism) of hydrocarbons in a closed environment changes the atmospheric composition to a point where it is incompatible with life.

Your suggestion is about as sensible as this riposte Gedankenexperiment:

Take all the battery cells in your car and wire them together in series. Now complete the circuit using your dried right and left hands. You won’t try this test, want to guess why? It will kill you. Now what happens if you do that with your 12v starter battery from your ICE car? Nothing. You could stand there all day and at worst experience a slight tingle.

Last edited by Karlos on 26-May-2022 at 07:44 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 26-May-2022 at 07:42 PM.

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@Karlos

Of course you’re right, my wording was off. You can’t get cancer that quickly in one setting. I should have said it’s toxic and lethal in this hypothetical experiment, not that you will get cancer that fast. My point was that it’s harmful to humans or almost any living being for that matter.

Last edited by DiscreetFX on 26-May-2022 at 07:56 PM.

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@Thread

I like the sound of a nice V8 car engine or an old WW2 Merlin Spitfire engine! Why are electric cars still pretty much silent still with no external speakers installed as standard? If you combine self-driving cars with silent running electric vehicles you have a recipe for human deaths and accidents IMHO. Why are we focussing just on battery tech when the simple problems haven't been addressed yet?

Last edited by BigD on 26-May-2022 at 07:56 PM.

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@BigD

But this has been addressed. Most EVs as required by law emit a high pitched noise when traveling at low speeds. My first EV, a Nissan Leaf did this way beck in 2012. That EV was not ready for prime time and only went about 84 miles per charge which did force me to plan my route carefully. Thank goodness modern electric cars go 200-300 hundred miles per charge. The 84 mile range was not practical for most people back then.

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@bhabbott

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Not weak at all. I have had an electric car for over 3 years, and never once had to use a charging station. I just take my 240V cable with me and plug it into any 3 pin socket that's handy. My friends don't mind me topping up while visiting them because electricity is so cheap. Theoretically I only need the range to get to their location, then recharge before the return trip (in practice I've never had to go that far, but having a bit extra reduces 'range anxiety').

You are indeed fortunate if you find electricity "so cheap" just now. It's relative, of course, given the cost of petrol and diesel. You may have recouped the emission cost of the battery in that 3 years, so kudos if that is the case. The leaf is not a bad EV, a good friend of mine had one.

I'm sure many people here read my posts as if I have no environmental concerns, or I'm anti EV or worse yet, pro hydrocarbon fuel. I'm not. I'm just don't consume marketing kool aid over how green cars are, period. If you factor in the total emission footprint of manufacture of the car itself, the returns diminish quickly. If you really want to cut emissions from transport, don't have a car at all. Not practical for many I agree. So minimise the usage and keep it for as long as you can (as long as it's not a wreck), instead.

Beyond not using the car where not necessary, I have both a PV and thermal solar array installed. Yes, a thermal collector, here in the rainiest place in the UK, but it does make a difference, providing warm or hot water without using the boiler. I'm lucky because my meagre 2.4 kW installation predates the axeing of the generator tariff. I manage to export more electrical energy than I consume over the course of a year, even having worked remotely for the last couple. However, we still have gas heating over the winter. Barring the odd overconsumption of legumes there's no way for us to be a net exporter of methane.

But in the end, whatever changes I make are insignificant while consumer culture entices people to never own their car but keep on replacing it with a new one every couple of years. That manufacture carbon footprint just keeps going and going.

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@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote: @Deniil715 Quote: Deniil715 wrote: Tesla is for the car industry what Amiga was for the computer industry. So how many of us Amigans drive a Tesla? I beg to differ. There's no relationship between the two things. Unless you prove it, of course.

No relation, but parallelism. Both pioneering the future
But reading through half of the posts here I take it you're not quite a Tesla fan :-p

Personally I would agree more with the arguments of bhabbott, agami and DiscreetFX when it comes to 1.climate change, 2.EVs and 3.hydrogen.

1.
It is more logical to believe the conclusions of people who have spend most of their working career on a subject, that random youtube dudes and BigOil lobbyists and other couch thinkers suffering badly from Confirmation Bias and The Dunning-Krüger effect.

2.
I have wanted one since I was 10-12 years old and made my own boxcar (or whatever you call a piece of wood on wheels) and fantasised of putting a car battery and a starter-motor on it, but didn't have the welding tools or skills Now I have finally got the financial muscles to get one and have never been so pleased with any car (except possibly the A-traktor I got as a 16-year-old).

3.
Efficiancy!! Or the lack of it. What makes hydrogen unsuitable and not having a break-through (pimarily in cars) is the low efficiency. Especially for clean hydrogen which sadly is as bad as for gasolin. Converting natural gas into hydrogen is less energy demanding I suppose, but then you're running on fossil gas anyway so no point.

Burning hydrogen in conventional ICE cars is even worse due to the low efficiency of those engines as well.

This is why batteries so far is the way to go. Simply efficiency. One windmill instead of four to take a car a certain distance.

Not everything can work on heavy batteries, like planes and longhaul ships. Here hydrogen might be the only viable way if they want to get clean.

Hindenburg: Yes this has already happened. One of Norways four (not like 400 or 4000) hydrogen fueling stations simply blew up! They don't know what happened but there were speciulations of a leak and that the flowing gas itself generated static electricity that ignited it and blew the whole station off the map. It's volatile stuff.

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@DiscreetFX

I've never heard an EV coming and often been surprised. The legal decibels required is not enough. Also it should be a low growl to immitate a petrol engine. The ability to hear high frequencies is lost with age so a lower frequency would make more sense IMHO. Perhaps they could license the Merlin or V8 engine sounds to get people to notice?

Last edited by BigD on 26-May-2022 at 09:09 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 26-May-2022 at 09:09 PM.

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I’m a long time EV owner and have seen the upsides and downsides to EV ownership. The technology is not perfect but improves almost everyday. I should have waited before buying an EV. Getting one in 2012 was way too soon. I’ve owned many gas cars during my lifetime as well. I have to say though, I do prefer the elegance and simplicity of an EV. I don’t miss the days of oil changes or having to fill up during the coldness of winter. The maintenance expense on ICE cars has not been fun before I drove an EV so I certainly don’t miss that. Maybe it’s not for everyone though, especially if you can’t charge at home.

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A video I posted earlier did some break even calculations for EVs with different sized batteries.

EV30, 30kWh battery, 0.32-1.67 years to break even for CO2 equivalent emissions
EV100, 100kWh battery, 1.90-5.53 years to break even for CO2 equivalent emissions

Are Electric Cars Worse For The Environment? Myth Busted
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhtiPefVzM

The big difference depends on the emissions to generate the electricity. EVs become better for the environment as the battery size is reduced but this decreases the range and thus usefulness and versatility. They can be practical for people who primarily commute short distances in cities and can recharge at home. They help to improve air quality in big cities. I believe they are an improvement for the environment but there is no free lunch.

There are other types of rechargeable batteries besides lithium batteries being used for vehicles like NiMH. Any battery that stores large amounts of energy has the potential to discharge quickly producing intense heat. Battery fires can be difficult to put out as the heat must be reduced. There have been cases of EV vehicle batteries reigniting from continued heat production some time after initial fires have been put out. Fuels with high energy density like gasoline and hydrogen have fire potential as well.

Any gas which displaces air and specifically oxygen in human lungs can be fatal. There are likely more people killed by smoke inhalation than CO if subtracting out suicides. Many CO poisonings at home are from non-vehicles like heaters, generators, etc. and more commonly during winter. CO emissions from even new combustion engines can be a problem on cold starts when necessarily running rich and before the catalytic converter is warmed up. Most people don't realize they have CO poisoning which is what makes it dangerous. With basic precautions, vehicle CO poisoning is not a major problem. CO is relative short lived in the atmosphere as it becomes CO2. There are some positive human benefits to CO.

Carbon monoxide as an emerging pharmacological tool to improve lung and liver transplantation protocols
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0006295221003683

The zero tolerance environmental radicals really should change their diets, especially stop eating ruminant meat and drinking milk.



New Zealand should do away with the cows and sheep and import kangaroo meat from Australia.

https://trublukangaroo.com.au/blogs/news/can-buying-kangaroo-meat-actually-lowering-carbon-emissions Quote:

Consumers purchasing kangaroo are choosing comparatively low emission meat because kangaroos produce negligible amounts of the greenhouse gas methane. This attribute appeals to environmentally aware and sustainability conscious consumers. Per head cattle can produce up to 600 times more, and sheep 50 times, the amount of methane that kangaroos produce. It means that 1 kg of kangaroo meat generates 0.75 kg CO2equivalents per year, whereas 1 kg beef generates 25 kg CO2 equivalents per year.

And eat those insect infestations.

https://climatepositions.com/reduce-greenhouse-gas-emissions-eat-insects-instead-of-meat/ Quote:

With regard to greenhouse gas emissions one study (Source 1, pdf page 79) suggests that 1 kg of edible insects such as beetles (mealworm), locusts and crickets emits about 1% of the emissions from 1 kg of pork or beef – which clearly illustrates the huge perspectives.

Here in the U.S. many of the leftist anti-business socialist/communist hypocrites want to destroy the "capitalists". Of course it is communist doctrine to destroy capitalism by whatever means possible including the use of violence. Putin and his throwback to Russian communism has also been spreading the green agenda.

https://www.scribd.com/document/353439133/Smith-Weber-Letter-to-Mnuchin-re-Russia-and-Green-Groups Quote:

The Committee on Science, Space and Technology is conducting oversight of what appears to be a concerted effort by foreign entities to funnel millions of dollars through various non-profit entities to influence the U.S. energy market. According to the former Secretary General of NATO, "Russia, as part of their sophisticated information and disinformation operations, engaged actively with so-called non-governmental organizations - environmental organizations working against shale gas - to maintain dependence on imported Russian gas." Other officials have indicated the same scheme is unfolding in the U.S. These statements and related reports provide evidence that Russia is also behind the radical statements and vitriol directed at the U.S. fossil fuel sector. The purpose of this letter is to request that the U.S. Department of Treasury investigate these and related allegations.

As if all the wrong environmental doomsday predictions were not enough, the communist anti-business messaging seems to still be successful even after Putin embarrassed Europe and their radical green agenda he helped finance. I'm for practical environmental improvements but the radical green agenda is counter productive.

Last edited by matthey on 26-May-2022 at 09:45 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 26-May-2022 at 09:29 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 26-May-2022 at 09:27 PM.

@Thread

No one dreams of buying an EV. This is an aspirational car!



A mid-engine V8! Signifying fun and freedom not restrictive endurance and trashing the planet by sourcing the raw materials for the batteries from the four corners of the globe with no sustainable recycling program in sight! Add to that ridiculous garage fees and it's all smoke and mirrors to create jobs revamping our electricity infrastructure and adding to the green taxes with exorbitant garage fees on top of the expense of new solar panels, heat pumps and insulation expenses at a time of runaway inflation! The only parallels with the computer industry are that the EV industry will crash like the dot com bubble.

Last edited by BigD on 26-May-2022 at 09:37 PM.

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@BigD

That's not aspirational because despite closing in on my midlife crisis, I'm not insecure about my reproductive organ size.

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@BigD

Quote:

I've never heard an EV coming and often been surprised. The legal decibels required is not enough. Also it should be a low growl to immitate a petrol engine. The ability to hear high frequencies is lost with age so a lower frequency would make more sense IMHO. Perhaps they could license the Merlin or V8 engine sounds to get people to notice?

The law forcing EVs to make noice is relatively new, atleast in EU. But the decibel is definitely loud enough (for a blind pedestrian trying to cross a road). Most (older) EVs don't make any sound. Renault Zoe makes a low pitch ghost-like houling presumably trying to sound like some futuristic space ship coming in for landing or something, but I just think it sounds stupid. High-pitch is not a requirement.

They only make noise below 30km/h or something. Many carmakers have a selection of sounds the user can choose from (that have all been approved). Some sounding like a real engine, others more fantasy-like.

Tesla apparely made other uses for the speakers as well allowing you to use them as a megaphone talking to people, or playing music My 2017 model doesn't have any speakers and is thus quiet.

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@BigD

Quote:

No one dreams of buying an EV. This is an aspirational car!

I have been dreaming of an EV since I was a kid!
I love getting a kick in the back, equivalent to that car, without that annoying noise (and delay)

Quote:

A mid-engine V8! Signifying fun and freedom not restrictive endurance and trashing the planet by sourcing the raw materials for the batteries from the four corners of the globe with no sustainable recycling program in sight! Add to that ridiculous garage fees and it's all smoke and mirrors to create jobs revamping our electricity infrastructure and adding to the green taxes with exorbitant garage fees on top of the expense of new solar panels, heat pumps and insulation expenses at a time of runaway inflation! The only parallels with the computer industry are that the EV industry will crash like the dot com bubble.

insulation?!?! Are you seriously arguing against proper insulation in houses?
So you're fine without your gas heated drafty, uninsulated english houses? A properly insulated house doesn't need heating. For the occasional deep freezer week of the year a heatpump should be used which is the most efficient way of heat.

There are already batteries built on recycled batteries, but the volume is still too low to account for any significant share of new batteries. Few EVs have been decommissioned todate. Recycling of laptops and phones has sadly not been an issue, because they are not relevant in "green business", so they end up in landfills.

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@DiscreetFX

Quote:

DiscreetFX wrote: I’m a long time EV owner and have seen the upsides and downsides to EV ownership. The technology is not perfect but improves almost everyday. I should have waited before buying an EV. Getting one in 2012 was way too soon. I’ve owned many gas cars during my lifetime as well. I have to say though, I do prefer the elegance and simplicity of an EV. I don’t miss the days of oil changes or having to fill up during the coldness of winter. The maintenance expense on ICE cars has not been fun before I drove an EV so I certainly don’t miss that. Maybe it’s not for everyone though, especially if you can’t charge at home.

How many EV cars have you owned?

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@Karlos

Three, or if you count a plug in hybrid the. Four.

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@DiscreetFX

Which have you owned the longest and how many miles have you driven it?

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PADDING!!!!!

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