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number6 
Re: Trevor Dickinson's Bathroom
Posted on 24-May-2022 20:23:53
#81 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11415
From: In the village

@cdimauro

Quote:
So, after one year I assume that A-EON still has no source code. But if it's now owned by the ExecSG team, then it should be under Trevor's control.


If it is now under Trevor's control (and by that I don't mean just working on it, but having the "right" to release it) then the other questions come to light.

Is there anyone with both the ability and the desire to work on this? (low level knowledge such as this has been at a premium since turn of the millennium btw)

#6

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cdimauro 
Re: Trevor Dickinson's Bathroom
Posted on 24-May-2022 20:45:58
#82 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2482
From: Germany

@number6

Quote:

number6 wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
So, after one year I assume that A-EON still has no source code. But if it's now owned by the ExecSG team, then it should be under Trevor's control.


If it is now under Trevor's control (and by that I don't mean just working on it, but having the "right" to release it) then the other questions come to light.

I think that it's quite consolidated that Trevor bought ExecSG some time ago.
Quote:
Is there anyone with both the ability and the desire to work on this? (low level knowledge such as this has been at a premium since turn of the millennium btw)

#6

Steven Solie is working on both ExecSG and U-Boot.

BTW and AFAIR, the X5000's U-Boot version was developed by BigFoot/MorphOS, which is the most competent guy for this.

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number6 
Re: Trevor Dickinson's Bathroom
Posted on 24-May-2022 21:00:04
#83 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11415
From: In the village

@cdimauro

Yes, I am aware of Trevor's purchase of ExecSG as an "invididual".

Unless things have changed Mark Olsen expressed no desire to work on CFE.

It's not like the people/talent don't/doesn't exist. It's more about the constraints of the NDA. Whether an A-Eon NDA would be as Draconian as an Hyperion NDA, I can not say. But things like this can send competent people running away at light speed. In fact they have.

Here's where I'll add that these "companies" have the right to draft their own NDAs, much like you have often repeated about Trevor and his right to spend his money as he so choses.
But a Draconian NDA does give the impression you are not really wanted.

#6

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cdimauro 
Re: Trevor Dickinson's Bathroom
Posted on 24-May-2022 21:11:27
#84 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2482
From: Germany

@number6

I don't know if there are NDAs, and in case which kind of them they are.

I can only tell you that, as a professional coder, NDAs for this kind of stuff make non-sense at all, since we aren't talking of Rocket Science AKA innovative products which will change the market in some way.

Only stupid people can think about imposing such NDAs. And, viceversa, only stupid people can accept them.

So, if Olsen refused to sign any such kind of NDA it's because competent people doesn't want to have anything to do with incompetents.

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number6 
Re: Trevor Dickinson's Bathroom
Posted on 24-May-2022 21:18:10
#85 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11415
From: In the village

@cdimauro

Quote:
I can only tell you that, as a professional coder, NDAs for this kind of stuff make non-sense at all, since we aren't talking of Rocket Science AKA innovative products which will change the market in some way.


I'm not disagreeing with you here.

btw-I was not referring to Mark in relation to refusing an NDA. I was referring to someone who offered to take this on about a year ago. The only reason I mentioned NDA as a determining factor is because he already publicly had stated same.

#6

Last edited by number6 on 24-May-2022 at 09:20 PM.

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agami 
Re: Trevor Dickinson's Bathroom
Posted on 25-May-2022 4:11:57
#86 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 939
From: Melbourne, Australia

@BigD

Quote:
I see that an ISA change in 2010 through 2016 would have cost Trevor and A-EON even more money and probably LOST him more money to please people like you that would have complained anyway.

The ISA change would not have cost that much extra if he was willing to drop AmigaOS 4.x
As a consumer, I am not that difficult to please. I buy things all the time and seldom do I complain.


Quote:
I don't see why anyone is angry about how a private individual invests his money!

You don't?
So a private individual decides to invest in a program that places a noisy factory in your neighborhood, is there any reason for anyone to get angry, including yourself?

No man is an island. Investing money is voting power. Choices made will affect other individuals: Some positively, some neutrally, and others negatively. And I happen to be affected negatively by this person's choices. They didn't set out with that as their goal, but nevertheless here we are.

But that is not the source of my anger. It's that so many of you are willing to elevate him and place him on a pedestal, as some sort of "can't do wrong" savior of Amiga, yet he has fumbled more times than he has ever delivered.

Think about this for a spell.
Which is better:
An evil person that does good 50% of the time, or
A good person that does evil 50% of the time?

When I have the pleasure of being surprised by how exquisite the unassuming dish I dined on at an inconsequential restaurant prepared by an autodidact cook who refuses to be addressed as chef, that is how I know it is a labour of love.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. When something is an actual labour of love you feel it viscerally. The yearning that produced it is felt with every experience. It straddles cognition and emotion, and it makes you feel privileged that you have had the good fortune to live in a time and place where you and it could cross paths.

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cdimauro 
Re: Trevor Dickinson's Bathroom
Posted on 25-May-2022 6:03:15
#87 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2482
From: Germany

@number6

Quote:

number6 wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
I can only tell you that, as a professional coder, NDAs for this kind of stuff make non-sense at all, since we aren't talking of Rocket Science AKA innovative products which will change the market in some way.


I'm not disagreeing with you here.

btw-I was not referring to Mark in relation to refusing an NDA. I was referring to someone who offered to take this on about a year ago. The only reason I mentioned NDA as a determining factor is because he already publicly had stated same.

#6

Thanks for the clarification. Could you please tell me who is the guy and maybe give a link to that story?

@agami

Quote:

agami wrote:
@BigD

Quote:
I see that an ISA change in 2010 through 2016 would have cost Trevor and A-EON even more money and probably LOST him more money to please people like you that would have complained anyway.

The ISA change would not have cost that much extra if he was willing to drop AmigaOS 4.x
As a consumer, I am not that difficult to please. I buy things all the time and seldom do I complain.

An ISA change would likely have meant an o.s. change -> a NEW o.s.. Which isn't what OS4 customers wanted.

They want to be bounded to a 32-bit (31, in reality) big endian architecture because having 68k apps running transparently (with the native ones) is the most (and maybe only) important thing which they care of.

Anyway, selecting PowerPCs when OS4 started was already the wrong choice at the time. But it was Amiga Inc.'s fault here, so in line with the tradition of Commodore's bad management...

P.S. I agree on the remaining.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Trevor Dickinson's Bathroom
Posted on 25-May-2022 6:12:23
#88 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 845
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Quote:

agami wrote:

When something is an actual labour of love you feel it viscerally. The yearning that produced it is felt with every experience. It straddles cognition and emotion, and it makes you feel privileged that you have had the good fortune to live in a time and place where you and it could cross paths


Perfect description for the Amiga, and the Commodore 64.

"It straddles cognition and emotion"

Exquisite wordsmithery, just exquisite.





.mega

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BigD 
Re: Trevor Dickinson's Bathroom
Posted on 25-May-2022 6:57:00
#89 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6307
From: UK

@agami

Quote:
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. When something is an actual labour of love you feel it viscerally.


I think that was true of the X1000 but it was just too expensive and AmigaOS wasn't ready on initial release!

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agami 
Re: Trevor Dickinson's Bathroom
Posted on 25-May-2022 10:38:12
#90 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 939
From: Melbourne, Australia

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Quote:
Perfect description for the Amiga, and the Commodore 64.
...
Exquisite wordsmithery, just exquisite.

Thank you friend MEGA_RJ_MICAL

That is very high praise, coming from the master.

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number6 
Re: Trevor Dickinson's Bathroom
Posted on 25-May-2022 13:30:32
#91 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11415
From: In the village

@cdimauro

Quote:
Could you please tell me who is the guy and maybe give a link to that story?


I'll leave story telling to those writing the books, but using direct links to public quotes is surely no problem:

short, but should serve to illustrate

NDA mentioned again

If you really have the time, reading every post here tells a story

Quote:
So if nobody is allowed to give me the info without NDA then so be it.


another page full and source of quote above

There is -so- much more to this, but to make long "story" short ,everything goes back to having no one in charge. Without that you have no shot at open and honest communication that could solve many such issues as the above.

#6

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klx300r 
Re: Trevor Dickinson's Bathroom
Posted on 25-May-2022 15:10:24
#92 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2008
Posts: 3750
From: Toronto, Canada

@agami

Quote:

agami wrote:
@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Quote:
Perfect description for the Amiga, and the Commodore 64.
...
Exquisite wordsmithery, just exquisite.

Thank you friend MEGA_RJ_MICAL

That is very high praise, coming from the master.


———————-

‘Franco wrote:

Friend agami, you are one "amen" away from worship.

Habits eh?’


Last edited by klx300r on 25-May-2022 at 03:37 PM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Trevor Dickinson's Bathroom
Posted on 25-May-2022 20:40:48
#93 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2482
From: Germany

@number6

Quote:

number6 wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
Could you please tell me who is the guy and maybe give a link to that story?


I'll leave story telling to those writing the books, but using direct links to public quotes is surely no problem:

short, but should serve to illustrate

NDA mentioned again

If you really have the time, reading every post here tells a story

Quote:
So if nobody is allowed to give me the info without NDA then so be it.


another page full and source of quote above

There is -so- much more to this, but to make long "story" short ,everything goes back to having no one in charge. Without that you have no shot at open and honest communication that could solve many such issues as the above.

#6

Thanks. The third link was too long, so I stopped after a while, but the most important to me is the second:

"[...]there's no documentation how to write a kernel module for example. Everything is locked behind NDA walls. So this will make it hard to write a NVMe driver for example."

That's... unbelievable!

This is a very niche o.s., which is lacking drivers even for fundamental components, so you need developers to help here. And what you do? You close the needed documentation under a NDA!!!

WTF?!? Are those people crazy?!?

What's so super mega hyper important to carefully and jealously hide the documentation? It's the exact contrary of ANY other mainstream o.s., which instead is publishing it to FAVOUR and GAIN support.

Anyway, I think that the answer lies on the same second link, because reading it all gives an idea of how the situation is.

The company looks like a startup which just began the activity, and which is made of a bunch of ramshackle people which have little experience, aren't professional, and that work with little or even no clou about how software should be worked on and supported.

In Italy we call them "L'armata Brancaleone" (the title of a very well known movie): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'armata_Brancaleone
"The term Armata Brancaleone is still used today in Italian to define a group of badly assembled and poorly equipped people."

I wonder how they still survived...

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number6 
Re: Trevor Dickinson's Bathroom
Posted on 25-May-2022 20:52:01
#94 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11415
From: In the village

@cdimauro

Yep. Too much to read. But the long list of posts by the individual I felt necessary to include to prove bonafides, since it's rare to find "the real deal" around here.

btw- if you didn't read it all, he offered motherboard from concept to production and another offer to "fix" CFE.
Granted, an offer is not the same as accomplishment, but the point on my part was to illustrate people exist with both the skill and the motivation to do the work. The fact they are not nurtured, but intentionally discouraged is "criminal", imo.

#6

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Trevor Dickinson's Bathroom
Posted on 26-May-2022 1:04:32
#95 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 845
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

@klx300r

Congratulations friend klx300r,
you have reached peak unoriginality.

Your imagination is as infertile as a womb ravaged by the tenebrous unholy fluids that seep from Trevor's viscid body.

Learn, my friend, to distinguish pitiful groveling from manly, old-school camaraderie.


/mega!

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Trevor Dickinson's Bathroom
Posted on 26-May-2022 1:07:06
#96 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 845
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

In Italy we call them "L'armata Brancaleone" (the title of a very well known movie): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'armata_Brancaleone
"The term Armata Brancaleone is still used today in Italian to define a group of badly assembled and poorly equipped people."



"Ragtag army", wordy friend cdimauro,
ragtag army.

/mega


PS NONETHELESS, VITTORIO GASSMAN WAS ONE OF THE GREATEST ACTORS OF ALL TIME, CHEERS

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V8 
Re: Trevor Dickinson's Bathroom
Posted on 26-May-2022 2:39:27
#97 ]
Member
Joined: 30-Mar-2022
Posts: 30
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:
@number6

I don't know if there are NDAs, and in case which kind of them they are.

I can only tell you that, as a professional coder, NDAs for this kind of stuff make non-sense at all, since we aren't talking of Rocket Science AKA innovative products which will change the market in some way.

Only stupid people can think about imposing such NDAs. And, viceversa, only stupid people can accept them.

So, if Olsen refused to sign any such kind of NDA it's because competent people doesn't want to have anything to do with incompetents.


I recall the Hyperion NDAs were leaked long long time ago. Possibly 20 years ago. And they were truly draconian.
From what I recall they would make it impossible for anyone involved to ever work on anything Amiga or Amiga-like again. I also recall talk the NDAs were so poisonous that both AROS and MOS teams said they would have no option than to refuse to ever accept any patches or contributions from anyone that had signed the Hyperion NDA.

That said, NDAs are often unenforceable and very draconian ones doubly so. But even if the NDAs are void, do you want to spend a lot of time and money in court against someone as litigous as Hermans to prove it?

Now that I recall how draconian these NDAs were I find it interesting that a whole bunch of people have decided to work with these sources with A-EON. They are no longer afraid of Hermans trying to enforce the NDA in court? They have been indemnified?

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Amiga4000 
Re: Trevor Dickinson's Bathroom
Posted on 26-May-2022 2:43:58
#98 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Jan-2006
Posts: 282
From: The Ford Galaxy


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klx300r 
Re: Trevor Dickinson's Bathroom
Posted on 26-May-2022 4:48:17
#99 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2008
Posts: 3750
From: Toronto, Canada

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Found it tongue& cheeky myself or something about goose & ganderish eh

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cdimauro 
Re: Trevor Dickinson's Bathroom
Posted on 26-May-2022 6:48:56
#100 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2482
From: Germany

@number6

Quote:

number6 wrote:
@cdimauro

Yep. Too much to read. But the long list of posts by the individual I felt necessary to include to prove bonafides, since it's rare to find "the real deal" around here.

btw- if you didn't read it all, he offered motherboard from concept to production and another offer to "fix" CFE.

Granted, an offer is not the same as accomplishment,

Thanks for this additional information. I have no doubt that the guy is genuinely speaking. If not, he has a future in Hollywood...
Quote:
but the point on my part was to illustrate people exist with both the skill and the motivation to do the work. The fact they are not nurtured, but intentionally discouraged is "criminal", imo.

#6

Criminal... I don't know. But looking at the OS4 situation those geniuses look more like a bunch of lemmings that want to commit suicide...

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Quote:

MEGA_RJ_MICAL wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

In Italy we call them "L'armata Brancaleone" (the title of a very well known movie): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'armata_Brancaleone
"The term Armata Brancaleone is still used today in Italian to define a group of badly assembled and poorly equipped people."



"Ragtag army", wordy friend cdimauro,
ragtag army.

Thanks friend Mega. As a non-native speaker it is very difficult sometimes to find the right words to express the same concepts (in my mother tongue).
Quote:
/mega


PS NONETHELESS, VITTORIO GASSMAN WAS ONE OF THE GREATEST ACTORS OF ALL TIME, CHEERS

I fully agree. And kudos for your knowledge!

@V8

Quote:

V8 wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:
@number6

I don't know if there are NDAs, and in case which kind of them they are.

I can only tell you that, as a professional coder, NDAs for this kind of stuff make non-sense at all, since we aren't talking of Rocket Science AKA innovative products which will change the market in some way.

Only stupid people can think about imposing such NDAs. And, viceversa, only stupid people can accept them.

So, if Olsen refused to sign any such kind of NDA it's because competent people doesn't want to have anything to do with incompetents.


I recall the Hyperion NDAs were leaked long long time ago. Possibly 20 years ago. And they were truly draconian.
From what I recall they would make it impossible for anyone involved to ever work on anything Amiga or Amiga-like again. I also recall talk the NDAs were so poisonous that both AROS and MOS teams said they would have no option than to refuse to ever accept any patches or contributions from anyone that had signed the Hyperion NDA.

The term draconian applies very well looking at the information that I've collected 'til now.

However, to me this goes well beyond a NDA: it looks more like a straitjacket contract ("contratto capestro", in Italian).
Quote:
That said, NDAs are often unenforceable and very draconian ones doubly so. But even if the NDAs are void, do you want to spend a lot of time and money in court against someone as litigous as Hermans to prove it?

Now that I recall how draconian these NDAs were I find it interesting that a whole bunch of people have decided to work with these sources with A-EON. They are no longer afraid of Hermans trying to enforce the NDA in court? They have been indemnified?

Ben Hermans is substantially dead. He brought Hyperion to the point that nobody wants to make business with him.

I think that he is trying to find an easy con to be plucked, selling his company or some/all OS4 rights/IPs to him.
Maybe he already tried with Trevor, but Trevor is a business man and it's not easy to swindle him.

That's the only thing that he can do right know to continue cow-milking using his OS4.

But if he thinks to make a lot of money from OS4 then he's stupid: nobody sane will give him what he dreams.

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