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Bosanac 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 10-Oct-2022 8:47:42
#541 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-May-2022
Posts: 234
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:
Dear Gunnar von Goebbles


Comparing a German man to a Nazi? Classy.

How long is the prison sentence for that under German law?

Would you appreciate being compared to a famous wife beating coward I wonder? Seeing as you are Italian and all that.

You do have a wife don't you Cesare? When did you stop beating her?

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Karlos 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 10-Oct-2022 9:30:50
#542 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3372
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Gunnar

Quote:
As you know Amiga OS is based on a 32bit address design.
If you want to run Amiga OS than 32bit address is the world in which you live.


We have no desire to run Linux on 68K.
We want to run AmigaOS. Therefore 64bit address makes no sense for us.


Understood. This is why I'm asking about the 64-bit address register width. I'm just curious to understand the engineering reasons for it. It's not an armchair opinion on how you should design or implement it :)

Quote:
The Data register are for ALU operations - But also Address register can be used in ALU operations.
Like for example ADD.L A0,D0 = ALU operation using A0 as source


Sure but the above is a 32-bit addition, so the upper bits of A0 don't matter, right? Is there a corresponding 64 bit version of this, e.g ADD.Q A0, D0

I don't imagine, based on what you say, that you'd waste any logic space making them 64 bit wide unless there was some good engineering reason for it. That's what I'd like to understand.

I just thought, the EXG instruction. That's one reason I can definitely see that would benefit from the address registers being 64 bit, especially if you are swapping them with data registers.

Last edited by Karlos on 10-Oct-2022 at 10:35 AM.

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Gunnar 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 10-Oct-2022 9:49:36
#543 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 152
From: Unknown

Quote:

Anyway, what you did for the Amiga (A-MI-GA. And nothing else) in the last 25 years?


What I did?

I was member of 4 Amiga cracking groups.
Namingly: PowerStation, Traxxion, ASIA, DOPE
I cracked a number of games, wrote a number demos and cracktros and a number of bootblock intros. I think one my last Demos for Amiga were released 2008 on AMIGA MEKA meeting.
I wrote some useful tools like a good packer that we used.
I wrote a number useless tools, like we had own on audioplayer format that no one used.
I wrote an AMIGA virus - but maybe this is nothing to be proud of.
I wrote a bunch of halve done games. "Wegawars", "194x", "VoxelFlight".
I was part of the AWEB (Amiga webbrowser) team and helped to make the world best browser even better Well no AWEB is not the world best browser. But I think its important for Amiga to have a browser that why I helped on it.
I wrote a Rational Database for Amiga.
I ran webserver on Amiga - yes even with database behind. (who is so crazy does this?)
I ported Robin Hood to MorphOS.
I debugged and fixed a number of issues in AROS /ApolloOS
I complete rewrote the IDE/ATA code for ApolloOS. Now its a lot more stable and 3 times faster.
I complete rewrote most the GFX routines functions of ApolloOS, they are now several times faster.
I wrote a number of _released_ recent games like APOLLO-CROWN.
I tuned the Amiga NEOGEO emulator to become several faster.
I helped in some other Amiga game ports.
And I did develop the best 68K CPU of the world = the 68080 CPU
And I did develop the Super-AGA chipset.

My goal is to revive Amiga, and it did as much as I could for it.


Here are some screenshot of some shit I did:






Cesare, are you happy with this list?

Cerase di Mauro, but I did not came here to brag with stuff that I did.

What would be nice if you stop brag with stuff that you not did.
Cesare you and Matthew the two of you sometimes play "bullshit ping pong" here.
Cesare, some of your posts are really good and spot on.
But sometimes you post total bullshit.
How about you try to avoid posts where you lack experience/understanding?


And you brag all the time with your clever "code" for a game that was never released.
I find this very strange.


Last edited by Gunnar on 10-Oct-2022 at 10:49 AM.
Last edited by Gunnar on 10-Oct-2022 at 10:44 AM.

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Gunnar 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 10-Oct-2022 9:54:30
#544 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 152
From: Unknown

Cesare Di Mauro,

You brag all the time, how good the USA RACING is.
Help us understand why was this game not released?

Was it not finished?
What stopped you from finish it - you had 25 years time.

Hey I have an idea:
Brag less about an unreleased game, Code more to finish it!

Last edited by Gunnar on 10-Oct-2022 at 11:00 AM.

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Karlos 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 10-Oct-2022 10:22:26
#545 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3372
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

It's getting tense in here and I'm fast running out of Lego!

_________________
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Karlos 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 10-Oct-2022 11:42:24
#546 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3372
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Gunnar

I think people find you egocentric but it must get a bit tiring being told how you should have done it, or how you should do it. My questions are purely from curiosity and ignorance as I've not followed the development of it.

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Hypex 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 10-Oct-2022 11:58:19
#547 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10883
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Gunnar

Quote:
Cute, but wrong.




Actually, I said only bits, but I meant source byte when I put source.

Quote:
I understand where you come from as this would be the "default" way to code this. But this would be slow, very slow. AMMX allows you to do this much faster and much more efficient.


What I was thinking was doing it from a purely logical fashion. But, the bytes still need to be conditionally tested or logically combined to mask it out. Doing it all logically or with branchless code is harder. Doing it in a logic circuit is easier with a comparator to convert a $00 into an $FF.

The traditional way, for a byte packed sprite, can simply test each byte and only write non- zero values.

I imagine an obvious optimisation is skipping the test altogether and simply map line positions in each sprite. Then sprite lines can just be copied. In case it has "holes" they can be adapted into an X/Y offset and it also gives a basic compression for pixels by removing all redundant zero bytes from source graphic.

Quote:
Let me help you understand this. A "normal" sprite operation would read the Sprite, read the Background, then do a MASK operation similar to what do did assume and then write the result back to memory. These are in total 3 memory access.


Normally that's a bit plane, but here are we are talking bytes?

Quote:
AMMX supports MASKED writes, where you can define a MASK as source, or the instruction can create the MASK on the fly depending on the content. Using this instruction you only have 2 memory access, 1st sprite, 2nd Screen write. This means the CPU not need to read to from the screen for this. In other words the system saves 33% memory bandwidth.


So 33% in the best case with auto mask?

Quote:
Yes other CPUs not support this. And if you would want to code this operation with e.g. the PowerPC than you need to LOAD, LOAD, combine and STORE - you need 50% more memory bandwidth for this task than the 68080 needs.


It would seem it could be considered to be an esoteric operation since it's good for sprites but what other uses are there for it?

As with a lot of PowerPC code one operation has to be divided manually into primitives. So no surprises there. I think they designed it to be harder than normal because RISC.

However, in case a sprite and mask are both specified, internally would the 68080 still need to read memory twice and then store?

Quote:
This is another good example why some game are so much faster on Vampire than on AmigeONE. The 68080 has a lot more memory bandwidth than the AmigaOne and when you code the same on PowerPC you need/waste 50% more memory bandwidth then the 68080 needs using the AMMX instructions.


I'm not aware of many games using sprites on the AmigaOne. Most would have been SDL ports so using SDL engine. And most would have been using a 16 bit or 32 bit screenmode so needing to process more data.

Quote:
By the way, you can find the the AMMX instruction documentation on the Apollo-Core website. If you read it then you will understand this and other advantages even better and you not need to "guess" wrongly again.


I found the example I posted from the Apollo forums so after reading the description I could see what it was doing. But the mnemonics were not obvious. To me it looks too vague. In 68K ISA an abbreviated M can mean multiple, memory or module depending on instruction. I couldn't tell it was 64 bit at all for one thing.

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Hypex 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 10-Oct-2022 12:07:45
#548 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10883
From: Greensborough, Australia

@cdimauro

Quote:
Not Amiga gamers: Amiga games coders.


The gamers might not all know about $DFF000, but what they do know is they like that Amiga chipset to play those real Amiga games.

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Gunnar 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 10-Oct-2022 12:17:18
#549 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 152
From: Unknown

Quote:

Quote:
Yes other CPUs not support this. And if you would want to code this operation with e.g. the PowerPC than you need to LOAD, LOAD, combine and STORE - you need 50% more memory bandwidth for this task than the 68080 needs.


It would seem it could be considered to be an esoteric operation since it's good for sprites but what other uses are there for it?


This copy is very useful for all moving on non moving elements on screen.
This can bullets, players, enemies, coins, houses, cars, planes, spaceship, soldier, knights, trees, fireballs, chain lightnings, arrows, treasure

Look at the game DIABLO for example:
You have the underground, and top you have creatures, trees, walls, heroes, magic fireballs,

Look at the game STAR CRAFT.
You have the underground, an on top, marines, zerg, crystals, tanks, houses, planes, ...

Look at his game here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUeL8rwX218
You have space ships, laser, planets ... a lot of stuff on the screen.

Such copy is useful also for multi playfields.







Quote:
This is another good example why some game are so much faster on Vampire than on AmigeONE. The 68080 has a lot more memory bandwidth than the AmigaOne and when you code the same on PowerPC you need/waste 50% more memory bandwidth then the 68080 needs using the AMMX instructions.


I'm not aware of many games using sprites on the AmigaOne. Most would have been SDL ports so using SDL engine. And most would have been using a 16 bit or 32 bit screenmode so needing to process more data.
[/quote]

There is the term "Sprites" as Hardware sprite on Amiga
But there are also "SoftSpites".
SDL-games paint basically everything using "SoftSprites"
And yes its very useful for speeding this up

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Gunnar 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 10-Oct-2022 12:29:55
#550 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 152
From: Unknown

Quote:

However, in case a sprite and mask are both specified, internally would the 68080 still need to read memory twice and then store?.


No the AMMX instruction does not need to read from destination.
You are saving this read.
You only need to store to screen - not need to read from screen for this operation.
Not needing to read, will save a lot precious memory bandwidth.

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Hypex 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 10-Oct-2022 12:47:14
#551 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10883
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Gunnar

Quote:
Copper list are in Bigendian, Amiga screenmodes are in Bigendian,Audio to play by PAULA the Amiga audio chip, is in Bigendian. Also our SAGA chunky modes are Bigendian.


Actually, Paula uses 8 bit signed bytes, so it's not exactly in an endian. Just like 8 bit text is not in an endian. But, could be considered big endian when working with greater word sizes as a whole, since the data bytes would need to be grouped as big endian.

@cdimauro

Quote:
Amiga with RTG and AmigaOnes supported little endian as data format. For obvious reasons. Which aren't obvious for you, of course.


But, could AmgaOne be considered Amiga? Amiga people don't seem to like the One.

Anyway...

Quote:
1.2 March 16, 1998 3D textures, BGRA and packed pixel formats


A BGRA format would be little endian, since it's the opposite of ARGB, where the natural order is alpha/red/green/blue.

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Gunnar 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 10-Oct-2022 13:04:01
#552 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 152
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Quote:

Actually, Paula uses 8 bit signed bytes, so it's not exactly in an endian.

Yes the sample each are Byte, and the DMA reads always 2 samples = one word.
The two Bytes in the word need be in bigendian order as in the AIFF audio format.
While on PC and WAV format their byte order is swapped.

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Karlos 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 10-Oct-2022 13:06:28
#553 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3372
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Hypex

It does somewhat depend on whether or not you regard the data as being organised or pixels of 32-bit words or as interleaved channel data in bytes. Don't forget there's RGBA and ABGR too. Just for the added torment.

I tend to think of them in terms of 32-bit words purely because it's the most efficient way to read and write VRAM on an RTG card. Conceptually though, there's no real "natural order" to the bytes. Just convention.

_________________
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Hypex 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 10-Oct-2022 13:16:29
#554 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10883
From: Greensborough, Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
Lett summarize: Using 2 x memory sticks never worked reliable, it had issues with interrupts (often IRQ was disabled in drivers, using PIO4 mode), AGP never preformed to specifications, USB ports was f*cked, and L2 cache was most likely deactivated.


I had some trouble using standard single memory sticks. I had a 256MB StarRam that was fine. I bought a 512MB where only 256MB worked I found, labelled Hynix or something.

Then, at some point I located proper server RAM since it really needed to be registered in the design. I got two 1GB sticks for 2GB totally. Worked flawlessly for years.

Until I broke one when cleaning my XE with a blower vac outside. Accidentally left the ram too close. Long story short.

DMA was unreliable and had to be disabled in most cases. Both on disk and in some CPU operations. CPU lacked cache coherency which caused a lot of major issues. Including random freezes which it was prone too. And prevented things like hardware acceleration in Linux graphic drivers as it only lasted a few moments doing fast blits before freezing over.

The USB ports lacked resistors and it was never known if they were needed or not since the VIA docs were also said to be poor and lacked this major info. Aside from this they worked fine and I added my own USB hack which enabled hot plugging.

On top the UBoot USB transfers are dog slow. Like using PIO 0 mode for reads, I'm sure it also uses USB 1.0 mode for reads, as it takes so long to boot a 15MB image off USB. The USB ports can do 900KB/s so 15MB should be done in about 17 seconds. But it takes a few minutes.

Bonus find is that the USB ports can actually detect devices. I found my SanDisk sticks were detected by UBoot. Without hacks!

For reference:
https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=42604&forum=33

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Karlos 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 10-Oct-2022 15:37:28
#555 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3372
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Hypex

My A1 died just as it was getting interesting. I had a selection of expansion cards I was working on drivers for, then poof.


Happier Days...

*Disclaimer, the A1200 is what was on the KVM that moment...

_________________
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cdimauro 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 11-Oct-2022 4:55:09
#556 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3097
From: Germany

@Bosanac

Quote:

Bosanac wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
Dear Gunnar von Goebbles


Comparing a German man to a Nazi? Classy.

Certainly NO.

You extrapolated a single sentence from others removing the context. Which is (also) intellectually dishonest.

And maybe you haven't even understood the context. Which isn't a surprise, since you have shown it several times.

Let me know if I've to explain it to you: I've no problem.
Quote:
How long is the prison sentence for that under German law?

As you already know I'm not German. So, I don't know.

Anyway, see above: it doesn't apply. So, I don't care.

BTW, the only thing which I know is the German law about patents.
Quote:
Would you appreciate being compared to a famous wife beating coward I wonder? Seeing as you are Italian and all that.

See above: it doesn't apply. And you're falling (again) in logical fallacies. Which, again, it isn't s surprise.

Anyway, could you report this comparison? I'm interested on knowing it.
Quote:
You do have a wife don't you Cesare? When did you stop beating her?

Sure, I've.

And no, I don't beat a flower. Maybe you're used to do it, but it's not my case. I know how to treat women.

Anyway and guess what: this is again another logical fallacy!

You continue to show a lack of elementary logic, Bosanac. You're a desperate case...

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cdimauro 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 11-Oct-2022 5:06:34
#557 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3097
From: Germany

@Gunnar

Quote:

Gunnar wrote:
Quote:

Anyway, what you did for the Amiga (A-MI-GA. And nothing else) in the last 25 years?


What I did?

I was member of 4 Amiga cracking groups.
Namingly: PowerStation, Traxxion, ASIA, DOPE
I cracked a number of games, wrote a number demos and cracktros and a number of bootblock intros. I think one my last Demos for Amiga were released 2008 on AMIGA MEKA meeting.
I wrote some useful tools like a good packer that we used.
I wrote a number useless tools, like we had own on audioplayer format that no one used.
I wrote an AMIGA virus - but maybe this is nothing to be proud of.
I wrote a bunch of halve done games. "Wegawars", "194x", "VoxelFlight".
I was part of the AWEB (Amiga webbrowser) team and helped to make the world best browser even better Well no AWEB is not the world best browser. But I think its important for Amiga to have a browser that why I helped on it.
I wrote a Rational Database for Amiga.
I ran webserver on Amiga - yes even with database behind. (who is so crazy does this?)
I ported Robin Hood to MorphOS.
I debugged and fixed a number of issues in AROS /ApolloOS
I complete rewrote the IDE/ATA code for ApolloOS. Now its a lot more stable and 3 times faster.
I complete rewrote most the GFX routines functions of ApolloOS, they are now several times faster.
I wrote a number of _released_ recent games like APOLLO-CROWN.
I tuned the Amiga NEOGEO emulator to become several faster.
I helped in some other Amiga game ports.
And I did develop the best 68K CPU of the world = the 68080 CPU
And I did develop the Super-AGA chipset.

My goal is to revive Amiga, and it did as much as I could for it.


Here are some screenshot of some shit I did:






Cesare, are you happy with this list?

No, because you've written a wall of irrelevant text. So, distracting from my request.

The only important thing is what games have you made for the Amiga (A-MI-GA) and I saw nothing. I've searched for the 3 names that you mentioned and I've found nothing.

So, actually you made NO games for Amiga.
Quote:
Cerase di Mauro, but I did not came here to brag with stuff that I did.

Well, if we're making this discussion is because YOU DID IT WITH ME! It was YOU that asked me which demos or games I've made for the Amiga. And I've already gave you the answer multiple times (because it looks that you're unable to get it).

AFTER that I decided to ask the SAME thing to YOU. And you know complaint?!? Are you serious?
Quote:
What would be nice if you stop brag with stuff that you not did.

Which I never did: I've reported the FACTs. So, what I've did.

If you don't like the answer, well, it's YOUR personal problem. FACTs remains facts despite what you can say. Which, again, is ELEMENTARY LOGIC.
Quote:
Cesare you and Matthew the two of you sometimes play "bullshit ping pong" here.
Cesare, some of your posts are really good and spot on.
But sometimes you post total bullshit.
How about you try to avoid posts where you lack experience/understanding?

Maybe when you PROVE that those are bullsh*ts? Because you're systematically missing to do it.

Rather the contrary: I've proved several times that what you said was utterly bullsh*t.

Last thing: https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=44362&forum=2&start=240&viewmode=flat&order=0#855920

You claim that you want to revive the Amiga and you don't even know how it works reporting numbers which are completely out of the reality...
Quote:
And you brag all the time with your clever "code" for a game that was never released.
I find this very strange.

First, Fightin' Spirit was released. And more news about it will come in a few months (so, stay tuned).

Second, if a game is unpublished does NOT mean that it didn't exist. This is, again, another logical fallacy!

Do you understand that you show a complete lack of elementary logic outside of your domain? Which is unbelievable for an hardware engineer...
Quote:

Gunnar wrote:
Cesare Di Mauro,

You brag all the time, how good the USA RACING is.
Help us understand why was this game not released?

Was it not finished?
What stopped you from finish it - you had 25 years time.

Hey I have an idea:
Brag less about an unreleased game, Code more to finish it!

Again?!? I've CLEARLY reported the reasons here:

https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=44581&forum=15&start=500&viewmode=flat&order=0#855857

It's written in simple English: not Aramaic. Do you understand it or should I explain it you?

It's embarrassing. Really...

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Gunnar 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 11-Oct-2022 6:34:08
#558 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 152
From: Unknown

Quote:

I've some scans saved on my hard driver. I can share, if you're interested. I've scanned them because Giacinto asked me some years ago for an interview.


"Cessare Di Mauro": the man who gives interviews about unfinished games.

Cesare Di Mauro, the man who post hundreds of post,
and him and his friends give interviews and make a big website about a soon coming Amiga hardware project - before they even start working on it!
Before they even care to read the hardware documentation!


Buy now Cesare Di Mauros memoir!
Read all about Cesare Di Mauro, the man who nearly invented a cure for cancer,
the man who nearly made a computer game,
the man who nearly created a new Amiga.


Cesare, do first, then talk!

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Bosanac 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 11-Oct-2022 7:04:22
#559 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-May-2022
Posts: 234
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:
As you already know I'm not German. So, I don't know. Anyway, see above: it doesn't apply. So, I don't care. BTW, the only thing which I know is the German law about patents. Quote:


But the rules must be followed, even if you don’t know about them. You have been quite clear about how everyone must follow them or they are an “idiot”.

So what does that make you?

Directly comparing a German man to Joseph Goebbels is unacceptable in German society.

You are a guest in someone else’s country and don’t have the common decency to respect their rules and cultural sensitivities.

From one high functioning autist to another, please go get properly diagnosed for ASD. Your life (and the lives of people you interact with) will be much better off for it.

https://youtu.be/HlEWIAiqSoc

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Karlos 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 11-Oct-2022 7:22:14
#560 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3372
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@cdimauro

You referred to Gunnar as Goebbels. Whatever your intention for doing so, does not change the fact that Goebbels was one of the highest ranking Nazi officials and in all probability second only to Hitler when used as a slur.

I don't know the specifics of German law regarding the use of such slurs but I do know it's taken seriously when offence is taken.

You may be Italian but if you live in Germany, you're likely bound by the laws there.

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