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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 30-Oct-2022 6:27:51
#661 ]
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Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Right, but should Elon Musk buy Twitter, or Amiga?

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Karlos 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 30-Oct-2022 10:10:38
#662 ]
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Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3357
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

While I appreciate your commentary on how far off topic most recent threads are, this is a bit of a moot point. He's now the head Twit.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 30-Oct-2022 10:38:51
#663 ]
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Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Quote:

Karlos wrote:
@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

While I appreciate your commentary on how far off topic most recent threads are, this is a bit of a moot point. He's now the head Twit.


Might this, oh friend Karlos,
give you insight into how removed I am from the news of this silly, silly globe of ours.

I learned about Musks' purchase just now,
thanks to your remark.

/m!

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bhabbott 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 6-Nov-2022 9:21:02
#664 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Jun-2018
Posts: 245
From: Aotearoa

@cdimauro

Quote:


Demonstration of what?

PoC is for people which don't understand maths.

Not my problem.

34 pages and this is all we get.

Way back on page one you said packed would produce "Much more efficiency" and that using bitplanes was an "ENORMOUS waste of bandwidth" - but nobody has quantified the actual difference. Quelle surprise. At this point it's obvious that nobody wants to do it, so I call your claims unproven.





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Massi 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 6-Nov-2022 9:58:59
#665 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2011
Posts: 627
From: Rome, Italy

@bhabbott

Sir, an article that not even his closer friends would like, without a proof of concept or implementation details.

Fried air.

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Karlos 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 6-Nov-2022 11:11:11
#666 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3357
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@bhabbott

On page 1 there is a compilable gist that includes a simple software definition of a N-bit planar (fully separate planes) and N-bit packed pixel bitmap representation.

I provided it thinking it might be a fun Hackathon to see what people come up with. FWIW, firmly in the camp that for any regular drawing options you can conceive of, packed will be faster, since it is self evident as an engineer that doing one read/write operation (worst case 2 if a machine word boundary is crossed) is going to be faster than N such operations for planar, to correctly set the values for each plane. This is best exemplified by a basic arbitrary line draw. While it is possible to optimise it somewhat for planar by making sure sections of the line containing horizontally adjacent pixels are tuned for least amount of read/write, you end up with much more complicated code (or gate logic for HW).

It's also self evident that there are operations, such as rendering horizontal spans (lines or as part of block filling) where the two formats approach the same efficiency the longer the span is, since both will spend most time just waiting machine aligned words to successive memory locations.

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Karlos 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 6-Nov-2022 12:30:52
#667 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3357
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

666th reply....

Last edited by Karlos on 06-Nov-2022 at 12:31 PM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 6-Nov-2022 13:00:05
#668 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3097
From: Germany

@bhabbott

Quote:

bhabbott wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:


Demonstration of what?

PoC is for people which don't understand maths.

Not my problem.

34 pages and this is all we get.

Way back on page one you said packed would produce "Much more efficiency" and that using bitplanes was an "ENORMOUS waste of bandwidth" - but nobody has quantified the actual difference. Quelle surprise. At this point it's obvious that nobody wants to do it, so I call your claims unproven.

Well, actually it's the exact opposite: I'm the one which proved it.

Here's the well-formatted translation gently provided by pixie: For those interested in translation

There are several primitives that were deeply analyzed on my article, but let's focus on the conclusion about the most important one for an Amiga: cookie-cut. Here is it:

Packed: it ranges from a minimum of 4 (memory; ndr) accesses to a maximum of 8.
Planar: This ranges from a minimum of 12 accesses (memory; ndr) to a maximum of 24.
Conclusions: As we can see, for this last analyzed primitive the planar format is even more penalized than the packed one, because the more the bitplanes increase the more the accesses to read always the same mask: an enormous waste considering that the mask is always the same.


As you can see I've also used the same word: enormous.

Now if you don't like the conclusions then it's your own problem, but your words can do nothing against Maths.

@Massi

Quote:

Massi wrote:
@bhabbott

Sir, an article that not even his closer friends would like,

I know, I've put a high bar for understanding the calculations on my article. I'm sorry for the ones below ground school education.
Quote:
without a proof of concept or implementation details.

As I've already said, PoCs are for people that don't understand Maths.
Quote:
Fried air.

The one where you continue to burn... for my pleasure.

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote:
@bhabbott

On page 1 there is a compilable gist that includes a simple software definition of a N-bit planar (fully separate planes) and N-bit packed pixel bitmap representation.

I provided it thinking it might be a fun Hackathon to see what people come up with. FWIW, firmly in the camp that for any regular drawing options you can conceive of, packed will be faster, since it is self evident as an engineer that doing one read/write operation (worst case 2 if a machine word boundary is crossed) is going to be faster than N such operations for planar, to correctly set the values for each plane. This is best exemplified by a basic arbitrary line draw. While it is possible to optimise it somewhat for planar by making sure sections of the line containing horizontally adjacent pixels are tuned for least amount of read/write, you end up with much more complicated code (or gate logic for HW).

It's also self evident that there are operations, such as rendering horizontal spans (lines or as part of block filling) where the two formats approach the same efficiency the longer the span is, since both will spend most time just waiting machine aligned words to successive memory locations.

+2
Quote:

Karlos wrote:
666th reply....

You're damned.

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Massi 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 6-Nov-2022 14:53:38
#669 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2011
Posts: 627
From: Rome, Italy

@cdimauro

But of course mr. Tina the influencer .

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cdimauro 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 6-Nov-2022 20:05:44
#670 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3097
From: Germany

@Massi

Quote:

Massi wrote:
@cdimauro

But of course mr. Tina the influencer .

Desperate Massi entered Goebble's falsification propaganda...

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Massi 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 6-Nov-2022 20:09:04
#671 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2011
Posts: 627
From: Rome, Italy

@cdimauro

Ignorant and incompetent, go home.

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cdimauro 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 6-Nov-2022 20:30:14
#672 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3097
From: Germany

@Massi

Quote:

Massi wrote:
@cdimauro

Ignorant and incompetent, go home.

Says the one which isn't even able to understand ground school Maths...

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Massi 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 6-Nov-2022 20:44:55
#673 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2011
Posts: 627
From: Rome, Italy

@cdimauro

Tina the opinionist that is smarter than the Commodore engineers and Jay Miner.

Go home donkey.

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cdimauro 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 6-Nov-2022 20:48:31
#674 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3097
From: Germany

@Massi

Quote:

Massi wrote:
@cdimauro

Tina the opinionist that is smarter than the Commodore engineers and Jay Miner.

Maths doesn't give any special treatment to no one: numbers are there to show who is right or not, despite the "titles".

BTW, this is another logical fallacy: Argument from authority. As usual with you, that lack even elementary logic...
Quote:
Go home donkey.

Ehm, at least I know base Maths: something which is impossible for you.

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Karlos 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 6-Nov-2022 23:25:47
#675 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3357
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Massi

That's not the claim being made though. The engineers worked with what they had. Planar was a reasonable choice for OCS but the opportunity to move to more conventional packed pixels (not talking about our hypothetical odd-sized ones, just regular power of 2 depths) was missed later and even Jay Miner himself acknowledged this.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 7-Nov-2022 0:03:02
#676 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Quote:
cdimauro wrote:

Massi entered Goebble's falsification propaganda...



Quote:

Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3043
From: Germany



Friend cdimauro,

do you realize you live in Germany,
and you have been calling Joseph Goebbels "Goebble" around 25 times,
displaying a clear inability to grasp even the basics of German phonemes?

Being your English also rather coarse,
and mired in teeth-grinding literal translations from your peninsula's tongue,
I truly wonder about your struggles abroad.

ON SECOND THOUGHT,
those struggles explain a lot.
The self-isolation, endless nights of typing,
the angst.

Warm hugs,
/𝔥𝔢𝔯𝔯 𝑚𝑒𝑔𝑎







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Bosanac 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 7-Nov-2022 0:13:03
#677 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-May-2022
Posts: 234
From: Unknown

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Quote:
The self-isolation, endless nights of typing, the angst.


The huge right bicepů

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Massi 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 7-Nov-2022 5:06:48
#678 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2011
Posts: 627
From: Rome, Italy

@cdimauro

An influencer like you, with a photo of you of 25-30 years ago in your article.
You may lose followers ...

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cdimauro 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 7-Nov-2022 5:28:44
#679 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3097
From: Germany

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Quote:

MEGA_RJ_MICAL wrote:
Quote:
cdimauro wrote:

Massi entered Goebble's falsification propaganda...



Quote:

Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3043
From: Germany



Friend cdimauro,

do you realize you live in Germany,
and you have been calling Joseph Goebbels "Goebble" around 25 times,
displaying a clear inability to grasp even the basics of German phonemes?

Friend Mega, this is a lapsus: not a lack of phonemes.

There's no phoneme on the "Goebble" word which is not part of the German tongue.

While it's true that my German sucks, my knowledge is certainly way better than your.
Quote:
Being your English also rather coarse,
and mired in teeth-grinding literal translations from your peninsula's tongue,
I truly wonder about your struggles abroad.

Nothing to say here: it's very well know that my English sucks.
Quote:
ON SECOND THOUGHT,
those struggles explain a lot.
The self-isolation, endless nights of typing,
the angst.

Warm hugs,
/𝔥𝔢𝔯𝔯 𝑚𝑒𝑔𝑎

Herrn Mega,

according to the various times of your posts it might be that you're the one which stealing too much time to the night. This would explain why you didn't match even a single thing here.

Sweet dreams (aren't made of this...)

EDIT and Q.E.D.: https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=44739&forum=2#857441

Last edited by cdimauro on 07-Nov-2022 at 05:41 AM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 7-Nov-2022 5:31:50
#680 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3097
From: Germany

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote:
@Massi

That's not the claim being made though. The engineers worked with what they had. Planar was a reasonable choice for OCS but the opportunity to move to more conventional packed pixels (not talking about our hypothetical odd-sized ones, just regular power of 2 depths) was missed later and even Jay Miner himself acknowledged this.

I think that the engineers of the time just used and implemented what was common knowledge at the time. And they had the truly belief that packed wasn't good for non-power of 2 depths.

So, nobody challenged the status quo.

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