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Neuf 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 4-Aug-2022 20:11:12
#81 ]
Member
Joined: 17-Apr-2017
Posts: 46
From: Unknown

@DiscreetFX

I don't think that's going to happen. I know that Hans thinks that a port to ARM is a good idea. I have a feeling Amigakit would think it would be a good idea as well. Trevor, I'm sure is less than enthusiastic about that.

Another thing would be Apple's reaction to the idea. When MorphOS was ported to the old Mac hardware, there was no opposition by Apple or Motorola. The reason was that Motorola totally abandoned 68K,as did Apple. The situation with ARM processors is much different.

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Neuf 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 4-Aug-2022 20:18:05
#82 ]
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Joined: 17-Apr-2017
Posts: 46
From: Unknown

@tlosm

Running native apps the RPI4 is a rocket compared to thep5040. Not only that, but the RPI has a SIMD unit and a proper FPU. As well it is also much cheaper.

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Kronos 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 4-Aug-2022 20:22:16
#83 ]
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Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2254
From: Unknown

@Neuf

Quote:

Neuf wrote:
. When MorphOS was ported to the old Mac hardware, there was no opposition by Apple or Motorola. The reason was that Motorola totally abandoned 68K,as did Apple. The situation with ARM processors is much different.


Apple didn't care what you ran on non-Apple PPC when they were still on PPC.
Apple barely cared what you ran on PowerMacs when they were still on PPC.

Vast array of non-Apple ARM-HW around that will run just everything you can squeeze through a compiler without Apple giving a damn.

Even on Apple's ARM-Mac you can just install Linux without Tim Apple sending in his Stormtroopers.

Issue with ARM (Apple or not) that the SoC are often only partially documented and that some drivers (for GFX) might only be available as binary blobs are in open-source variants that can only use them as glorified framebuffers.

-> Apple is not stopping anything Amiga on ARM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 4-Aug-2022 20:37:20
#84 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12277
From: Norway

@Neuf

As Kronos, if you can’t support hardware fully, you are going run circles around anything, binary blobs are fine if you can get one, and you manage to link with it. (Same type of binary format as your CPU.)

We can’t depend on hardware where can’t replace the GPU, if there are no PCIe slots your stuck with integrated chips, it does really help that there are other graphic cards you can support well.

Now only barely hanging in there when it comes to web, there is new HTTP protocol on the horizon, but I don’t expect it be an issue, it will replace TCP, but it’s on top of UDP protocol. So, I expect this be in the application layer. (maybe we (or MorphOS) are already using it.)

The issue for AmigaOS and MorphOS is efficient JavaScript, there other CPU has unfear advantage, as they well supported.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 04-Aug-2022 at 08:44 PM.

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Neuf 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 4-Aug-2022 20:43:30
#85 ]
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Joined: 17-Apr-2017
Posts: 46
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

I don't think Trevor is intrinsically opposed to porting AmigaOS to ARM. He probably is less than enthusiastic about it though. Hans has come and openly supported a port to ARM.

If V54 is fully developed as a standalone OS,then I think a port of the new OS to ARM is quite likely. Hyperion would essentially be out of the picture. Amigakit hasn't said anything, but I'm sure he'll back Hans fully.

Trevor will continue with the Exec SG team and continue work on TABOR.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 4-Aug-2022 20:49:38
#86 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12277
From: Norway

@Neuf

But I think that’s many years down the road, there is lot to fix, and replace, and improve, before you can look at support more one (two) cpu’s.

ideal you do it without having to drop support for another CPU or binary format.

The more binary format you can run on the same CPU, using JIT’s the more software you have access to, a workbench without programs, is a ghost town. it does not help if run 10x as fast, if you can't use it for anything.

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BigD 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 4-Aug-2022 22:48:37
#87 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6473
From: UK

@Neuf

Quote:
Trevor will continue with the Exec SG team and continue work on TABOR.


So are they all in with the A1222 Plus then? You would have thought it only makes sense with continued availability of the X5000 too?

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agami 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 5-Aug-2022 2:20:34
#88 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1017
From: Melbourne, Australia

@fishy_fis

Quote:
Closed source, controlled development point blank will not result in the system staying anything other than retro.
...
but at the same time going MOS solves nothing. It's just another archaic system that continues to fall further and further behind the rest of the computing world.

Totally agree. MorphOS for PPC is the best proverbial deck chair on the TITANIC.

Yes, open source on its own is not some magic bullet. It needs effective driving and steering, and that is what has been missing from the AROS equation.

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V8 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 5-Aug-2022 11:53:32
#89 ]
Member
Joined: 30-Mar-2022
Posts: 44
From: Unknown

@agami

You do not understand the value proposition from open source.
Open source is not a guarantee for success. It is an insurance that you can avoid the worst outcome if the developer retires.

AROS is a great example. Even if everyone stops developing for it, you can still fix bugs or write new features yourself, or pay someone to do it if it is important enough. Because it is open source.

And why should it not be open source if since there is no commercial value of the code?
Only a complete retard makes code with no monetary value whatsoever closed source.

Example A:
Joergs broken filesystem that some poor victims of OS4 had to suffer. Joerg is not great at writing quality code so his filesystem broke shit and people lost data. What happened next?
Joerg just retires but since no one can access the source code there is no one that can fix the bugs or make the filesystem not completely retard broken.

That is the difference between open source and closed source. If it is open, you can fix it if you have the skills or you can pay someone to fix it.
In the closed code situation, like Joergs code, once he is no longer around you can not fix any bugs. You are f***ed.


Open source does not guarantee success. Only thing it does is that if the auther does a Joerg on you, you at least have a chance to pick it up and fix the bugs that matter to you.

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DiscreetFX 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 5-Aug-2022 12:12:56
#90 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Feb-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Chicago, IL

@V8

“Doing a Joerg”, I do believe you just came up with some new Amiga scene slang. It will now join the famous two weeks and when it’s done. What’s some more Amiga slang we can invent?

Last edited by DiscreetFX on 05-Aug-2022 at 12:13 PM.

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BigD 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 5-Aug-2022 12:15:36
#91 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6473
From: UK

@V8

Fine, it's a great idea but would Hyperion ever hand over the source code to AmigaOS even if they lost the court case? I think Ben would prefer to burn the whole project at that point and face the consequences! The Open Source model i.e. AROS has failed! No one knows why (compatibility with Amiga Chipsets?) but it has. Only Cloanto want to follow this way with AmigaOS but the code isn't theirs in its entirety, only Workbench 3.1 and previous versions!

Last edited by BigD on 05-Aug-2022 at 12:16 PM.

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amigakit 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 5-Aug-2022 12:18:17
#92 ]
Amiga Kit
Joined: 28-Jun-2004
Posts: 2444
From: www.amigakit.com

@V8

Quote:
Joergs broken filesystem that some poor victims of OS4 had to suffer. Joerg is not great at writing quality code so his filesystem broke shit and people lost data. What happened next?
Joerg just retires but since no one can access the source code there is no one that can fix the bugs or make the filesystem not completely retard broken.


This is certainly not our experience, Joerg is a most capable developer and certainly is not retired. For example, his latest version of AmiDVD will be in the imminent release of the Enhancer Software version 2.2. He is a valued member of Amiga Developer team. SFS2 is the default filesystem of the Enhancer Software. We have been using it for over a decade on both Classic and Next Generation systems and it has been very reliable.


Quote:
poor victims of OS4 had to suffer


I think both the OS4 and OS3 owe a debt of gratitude to Joerg for his major contributions over the years, so no one has suffered or been victims.

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OlafS25 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 5-Aug-2022 12:24:09
#93 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6130
From: Unknown

@BigD

Why has Aros failed? I do not understand what you mean.

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amigakit 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 5-Aug-2022 12:32:16
#94 ]
Amiga Kit
Joined: 28-Jun-2004
Posts: 2444
From: www.amigakit.com

@BigD

Quote:
Fine, it's a great idea but would Hyperion ever hand over the source code to AmigaOS even if they lost the court case


Does it matter? The last two decades have taught us the lesson that the original source and IP are tainted and embroiled in legal spats which have negatively impacted on this community at times.

The conculsion we have come to is that is best to carve your own way with a fresh code base, free of legal entanglements and liberated from agreements that are skewed to third parties. It makes practical sense to rewrite major system components fit for 21st century computing from the ground up, but keeping to the Amiga spirit. This holds us in a better position for the future.

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BigD 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 5-Aug-2022 12:40:01
#95 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6473
From: UK

@OlafS25

Because it has not become the dominant flavour of Amiga Operating System and is not used by the majority of current Amiga owners = failed!

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BigD 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 5-Aug-2022 13:08:14
#96 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6473
From: UK

@amigakit

Quote:
The conculsion we have come to is that is best to carve your own way with a fresh code base, free of legal entanglements and liberated from agreements that are skewed to third parties. It makes practical sense to rewrite major system components fit for 21st century computing from the ground up, but keeping to the Amiga spirit. This holds us in a better position for the future.


A fair conclusion. I hope that it works out for you. I also pray that Cloanto will grant you the ongoing license for the AmigaOS 5 trademark when the court case is over as System 54 sounds rubbish IMHO!

Last edited by BigD on 05-Aug-2022 at 01:08 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 5-Aug-2022 13:10:34
#97 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6130
From: Unknown

@BigD

that is (in my view) less caused by Aros but by the stubborness of amiga users who stick to one choice and never would even look at alternatives

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TRIPOS 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 5-Aug-2022 13:30:23
#98 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1190
From: Unknown

@amigakit

Quote:

amigakit wrote:
@BigD

Quote:
Fine, it's a great idea but would Hyperion ever hand over the source code to AmigaOS even if they lost the court case


Does it matter? The last two decades have taught us the lesson that the original source and IP are tainted and embroiled in legal spats which have negatively impacted on this community at times.

The conculsion we have come to is that is best to carve your own way with a fresh code base, free of legal entanglements and liberated from agreements that are skewed to third parties. It makes practical sense to rewrite major system components fit for 21st century computing from the ground up, but keeping to the Amiga spirit. This holds us in a better position for the future.


A standalone System54 is only a rumor and that isn't A-EON's stated goal.

()

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BigD 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 5-Aug-2022 13:40:11
#99 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6473
From: UK

@Thread

Back on topic...

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tlosm 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 5-Aug-2022 14:04:59
#100 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2724
From: Amiga land

@BigD

__
wouldn't know because I've never seen one and am unlikely to if there are only around 40 intended for retail!
__
You know i had one and i made all things that is possible do on that hardware.
By the way the only sure thing is today on my Pi4 overclocked at 2ghz i can do much more things compared the X5000/040 and much much more faster same is for with my G5 quad.

Last distro on my pi is 64bit native debian and is impressive see how quake run inside winex86 in exagear and how good works vulkan on wine too.


@Neuf
__
. Not only that, but the RPI has a SIMD unit and a proper FPU
__

In integer the 040 was 15% better in computing compared the G5 but for sure the FPU was much much slower.
Yes the pi4 do really good it work expecially now with 64bit Lnx . the only thing that is a bootleneck is the gpu V3D isnt too much powerfull, is little better compared the M9 in the old Sam but do it work in 3d too.

I continue think morphos on this hardware will be a good alternative, amigaos too.


about a1222... for what i know performances will be worst compared a Pi2

Last edited by tlosm on 05-Aug-2022 at 02:07 PM.
Last edited by tlosm on 05-Aug-2022 at 02:05 PM.

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