@ferrels

Quote:

Those "other" non-wealthy Amiga "enthusiasts" you refer to aren't proposing global alliances while asking for your money by posting pathetic videos where nothing is offered in return.

He's offering a film, some music, an ebook + audio book and 1 years access to the site for £30. For some that might be value for money. You may have a different opinion on that but claiming he is offering nothing is just a plain lie.

Quote:

So send him your money if you think CAGA is such a wonderful idea.

I've only seen him mention a price. There was no information on when and how to pay. I'd assume that no money would be taken until the site is online and the payment mechanism will likely be part of the site.

It seems that you already have a narrative and are trying to fit the little infomation we currently know around that story. Unfortunately anyone who watches either of the two vidoes will se the obvious contradiction in what he actually says and your version.

Feel free to criticise the man and his ideas but at least make some attempt to keep it factual.

@SHADES

So what you’re saying, is cooperation is not possible, because people like you are not willing to.

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I’m actually a wee bit surprised that Raspberry Pi haven’t made any pi model with a small onboard FPGA yet.

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@kolla

Where would be the market for that?

Anything that needs an FPGA "in the field" will either need no CPU or far less CPU than even the OG rPI had.
For those there are already FPGAs with an included low end CPU on the market.

Something like emulation of retro-HW can be done much better with just the CPU (and GPU) anyways and insisting on FPGA being better because it's "real HW" is and always was utter nonsense.

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kolla Quote:

I’m actually a wee bit surprised that Raspberry Pi haven’t made any pi model with a small onboard FPGA yet.

We recently talked about the Humble board (RP2040 SoC+Lattice FPGA) in the RISC-V laptop thread. The RPi Foundation may just make the modular components cheap enough like the $1 RP2040 SoC. The CPU performance is weak, the SRAM memory low and the FPGA small for trying to do CPU emulation with FPGA chipset simulation. I'm guessing a higher performance but still inexpensive RPi SoC would be next with support for more memory/flash. A $3 SoC without targeting ultra lower power could provide more performance than any 68k Amiga and could easily be coupled with an FPGA for a sub $20 board. Most of the $1 RP2040 SoC cost is likely for packaging, testing and shipping costs. More transistors are very cheap but not as useful when trying to keep power low.

Kronos Quote:

Where would be the market for that?

I expect kolla is thinking about retro hardware with the CPU emulated by ARM CPU and chipset simulated in FPGA. There would be embedded demand if the price was low enough and the board small enough. FPGAs are great at parallel workloads. Chipset emulation can use a lot of CPU performance on high end CPUs so consider how much low end CPUs struggle.

Kronos Quote:

Anything that needs an FPGA "in the field" will either need no CPU or far less CPU than even the OG rPI had. For those there are already FPGAs with an included low end CPU on the market.

You don't think there is ever an embedded need for sequential and parallel processing from the same hardware? How about edge of network embedded devices that receive and re-transfer data but also use AI to filter out unnecessary data? Maybe a SIMD unit, vector unit, GPU, tensor processing unit or other specialized unit could accelerate the AI processing but those may not be available on lower end embedded hardware and an FPGA can be configured to do the job of all those devices. The FPGA is more flexible though not as low of power as an ASIC with those units. Also, the FPGA can be used for development and even tested in the field before an ASIC is created.

Kronos Quote:

Something like emulation of retro-HW can be done much better with just the CPU (and GPU) anyways and insisting on FPGA being better because it's "real HW" is and always was utter nonsense.

Tens of thousands of gamers choose FPGA retro hardware over emulation despite higher costs. Most gamers prefer low latency gaming although not all are willing to pay for it. If the RPi Foundation makes cheap enough FPGA hardware, it may be hundreds of thousands of gamers choosing FPGA for at least the chipset. There is other CPU+FPGA hardware like the MiSTer base board which was about $150 but there is plenty of room to aggressively drive down prices and remove the need for add on boards further reducing the total system price. The RPi Foundation could expand more into the retro gaming market despite Acorn having nothing compared to the 68k Amiga. RIP Amiga, RPi is the new Amiga.

Last edited by matthey on 17-Sep-2022 at 01:23 AM.

@matthey

It's not the question wether there are use cases for such a combo, but wether there is a market for it.

Higher latency is not a product of SW emulation it is a product of them running on top of an OS not designed for low latency, an issue you would still have to address with a SW/FPGA hybrid approach.

While "Tens of thousands of gamers choose FPGA retro hardware over emulation despite higher costs." untold millions are using SW emulation.

Now stuff like FPGArcade covers any real retro HW quite well so there is no need for a more complicated solution.

Which leaves alt/fake retro which has nothing to offer but a few games that would run so much better if the had used the HW and APIs available when the they were developed and older PC/console SW from 2000 and later which already uses modern API and has no need to emulate the actual HW.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

So what you’re saying, is cooperation is not possible, because people like you are not willing to.

Cooperation without a shared purpose is pointless.

Should someone cooperate with, say, a mass murderer just so others could not accuse this person of being "unwilling to cooperate"?

That would be psychotic.

@DiscreetFX

Imagine you were still running amiga.org and it had not been sold off.

How would you feel if a third party came along and proposed to abandon all long-running Amiga forums, to focus on a brand new (completely unknown/unproven) forum and to charge money for it?

@ASiegel

That is a little harsh comparation

But I agree... we first would need a common and competitive platform and products that are competitive in todays terms to have a need for common marketing. Currently all camps are heading in different directions. And for 68k only we do not need that.

@thread

The only obvious plans that are mentioned is a new website and some downloads. In my view I doubt that this will make a real difference compared to current situation. Also there is no common strategy and no products that are interesting to a broader audience (except "retro" of course). When Aros has made its move to Linux and MorphOS made the ISA change (as far as I know to AMD64) then perhaps marketing makes more sense. In any case I do not like to give money in a big pot where it is unclear what it is used for. If ever I would donate to fund certain projects where I know what it is used for and projects make sense to me. In any case it is too early for that.

Also it would perhaps make sense to take part in events and fairs and offer products under the brand "Amiga". But that is currently not possible until the legal dispute is decided.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 17-Sep-2022 at 10:07 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 17-Sep-2022 at 09:48 AM.

@OlafS25

Quote:

That is a little harsh comparation

It was not a comparison.

I used hyperbole to convey that blind cooperation is not intrinsically good. You need context and it is important to ask questions.

Quote:

we first would need a common and competitive platform and products that are competitive in todays terms to have a need for common marketing.

"Competitiveness" is hard to define for retro products.

That said, any marketing organization would need to ensure that they have all the necessary rights to use the relevant brand names.

In this specific case, the organization would require clearance by the owners of the separate Commodore trademark and Amiga trademark just to be able to advertise their own online services and subscriptions.

Being a non-profit entity does in no way exempt you from adhering to intellectual property rights.

Given that there are on-going disputes about the ownership of the Amiga trademark in different regions, getting legal clearance for the "CAGA" name might be a rather challenging task.

On the other hand, choosing to ignore these issues could very well undermine your own credibility as a serious organization that can be entrusted with representing multiple communites and managing funds provided by community members (which could be lost due to preventable legal conflicts, etc).

@ASiegel

to me it makes sense to have new and innovative products under the common brand "Amiga". Currently we can neither legal use or license the brand nor do we have products that are attractive to many people outside (except retro of course).

This "global alliance" would not change anything there. And discussions about a "common strategy and marketing" make no sense before the legal situation around the platform are not decided.

@Kronos & @Kolla

Maybe I should interrupt you, there are really an FPGAs with an integrated RISC ( ARM ) CPUs inside and they are already in use for 'Amiga Emulation'.

The combination is called MiSTer:

https://retrogamecoders.com/mister-fpga-amiga/


The ARM Chips is usually emulating the missing Harddisk (Floppy?) and could download the Minimig Core into the FPGA.

It is a long available solution and a proven product, maybe not exactly what Kolla wanted, but exactly what he mentioned on his wish list.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 17-Sep-2022 at 12:49 PM.

@ASiegel

CUSA tried doing that very thing and failed. I didn’t mind the competition then and welcomed it because I know it takes a long term commitment to actually make any difference. I even interviewed the CEO of CUSA on Amiga.org back then. If I still owned Amiga.org today it would be a well balanced forum covering classic Amiga, Vampire V4, MorphOS and AmigaOS 4.1. All would be welcome. Only a family health crisis forced me to sell Amiga.org otherwise I would still own it.

Last edited by DiscreetFX on 17-Sep-2022 at 01:35 PM.

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@OneTimer1

I already have MiSTer.
(Since 5 years already)

Last edited by kolla on 17-Sep-2022 at 01:49 PM.

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Let me elaborate a little more on why I think Raspberry Pi adding an FPGA to a board would be cool… and while Matthey is right, I do see a wider picture.

What would DE10 nano be without MiSTer? What does the MiSTer bring to the DE10 nano that no other terasic or other arm+fpga boards have?

* a specified framework for building fpga core, simplifying both porting cores and maintaining them over time.
* an ecosystem with lots of addons and equipment built specifically to work with the MiSTer framework.

And those are things that Raspberry Pi already have in place and what makes the raspberry pi boards stand out from the competition (I write this as someone who has dozens of non-raspberry pi ARM boards running, orange pi, libre, odroid etc). If they added FPGA to Raspberry Pi, it would pretty much be the defacto go-to solution for anyone in the need of FPGA board, for education, prototyping, light production, tinkerers etc.

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@DiscreetFX

Nothing stops you from just making yet another forum for amiga, you know… yaffa.org is even available! ;)

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@Rob

Quote:

I've only seen him mention a price. There was no information on when and how to pay. I'd assume that no money would be taken until the site is online and the payment mechanism will likely be part of the site.

He clearly states at the beginning of the video that [with] "the money that is raised, we're going to produce a website".

@all:

I watched the video. This is really, really sad. This project's main objective is obviously to keep David Pleasance relevant and make him some more money, and not much thought went into it beyond that. It's painful to watch, actually - almost makes you miss Ben Hermans. That there are still people out there willing to take this seriously - after all the crap we witnessed in the last 2.5 decades - is really annoying.

1. He's calling it "Commodore Amiga Global Alliance" and wants to do business using that name - run a website, fund software and hardware projects. And - literal quote - "make this brand more relevant than the existing Commodore and Amiga brands" over the years. I'm wondering what the owners of said existing brands will think about this blatant attempt to abuse their trademarks? Good rule of thumb: If somebody's telling you about his awesome project that will change the world - we just have to beat up that other guy's wife first, but only this one time, honest: walk away.

2. He's not using Kickstarter "this time", because their fees are allegedly way too high. Or maybe it's because he's abusing registered trademarks and his project would be shut down with a single mail from the actual brand owners? Or because his last Kickstarter project kept shrinking for years after it had been successfully funded?

3. The project's first goal is to set up a website where people can talk to each other and look shit up. Seriously, that's the project's first stated goal. A WEBSITE WHERE PEOPLE CAN TALK TO EACH OTHER AND LOOK SHIT UP. Awesome concept, I wonder why nobody ever thought of that. Definitely worth spending money on. Your money, that is. Not his. He's also not mentioning who the six (!) "incredibly qualified" webmasters are that would be building that site. And why they need money to build it, if they're such big Amiga fans. How many Amiga websites can you think of that cost money up front? Or at all, for that matter?

4. David Pleasance is the guy who's involved with the "Friend OS" people, who's been promoting the Italian trademark thieves selling crappy rebranded phones, who walked around for years claiming that he's working on finally getting the CD1200 manufactured. The guy who only delivered a third of what he initially promised his backers in his "Vampire to Vultures" Kickstarter, because apparently they've got "so much material now" he can sell you three books instead of just one. That guy wants you to give him your money so he can fund hardware and software projects. Unspecified hardware and software projects. It's not even clear who'd decide what to fund.

5. You do not want to watch an extended version of Viva Amiga. Actually, given the last time "Viva Amiga Extended Edition" was offered as bonus content was A-Eonkits "A1222 early bird" promotion, this is developing into another good rule of thumb: If you're offered Viva Amiga Extended Edition as a bonus, walk away - somebody's very desperate apparently.

The only reason to take part in this is the downloads the early bird subscribers get access to:

I've never heard of "Wavem" studios. Their C64 game, which is part of the bundle, looks like this. It's their first C64 production ever and it sells for no less than 20 Pounds - you have to admire the balls. A trailer for their upcoming video "Amiga - Alive and Kicking" doesn't make me go for my wallet immediately - maybe I'll wait for the extended edition. Note how the Youtube video was posted in July and has exactly one comment - from a spammer. That leaves Viva Amiga extended and pdf/epub and audio versions of Pleasance's first book.

If you think that bundle's worth 35 Euros, go for it - but make sure you know how to get out of this "alliance" in time before you have to pay for another year.

cgutjahr Quote:

I watched the video. This is really, really sad. This project's main objective is obviously to keep David Pleasance relevant and make him some more money, and not much thought went into it beyond that. It's painful to watch, actually - almost makes you miss Ben Hermans. That there are still people out there willing to take this seriously - after all the crap we witnessed in the last 2.5 decades - is really annoying. 1. He's calling it "Commodore Amiga Global Alliance" and wants to do business using that name - run a website, fund software and hardware projects. And - literal quote - "make this brand more relevant than the existing Commodore and Amiga brands" over the years. I'm wondering what the owners of said existing brands will think about this blatant attempt to abuse their trademarks? Good rule of thumb: If somebody's telling you about his awesome project that will change the world - we just have to beat up that other guy's wife first, but only this one time, honest: walk away. 2. He's not using Kickstarter "this time", because their fees are allegedly way too high. Or maybe it's because he's abusing registered trademarks and his project would be shut down with a single mail from the actual brand owners? Or because his last Kickstarter project kept shrinking for years after it had been successfully funded?

CAGA may fall under fair use of Commodore and Amiga trademarks, especially if it is a non-profit organization promoting the Amiga. International Amiga User Group, Amiga Society, Amiga Format, Amiga.org, Amigaworld.net are likely examples of fair use. Some of the organizations may be for profit but do business in a different category so don't compete. There are certainly grey areas like AmigaStore.com and selling Amiga apparel with trademarked names depending on the look or font. It would be best to communicate with the trademark holder before using their trademarks and to get a lawyers opinion. CBM certainly tolerated promotions by non-competing organizations if not encouraged grass roots promotions which was about the only advertising by CBM. Michele Battilana seems reasonable but watch out for Ben Hermans who claims ownership of Amiga IP despite appearing not to have paid for it. Dropping the "Commodore" name from CAGA would reduce the potential for trademark problems.

cgutjahr Quote:

3. The project's first goal is to set up a website where people can talk to each other and look shit up. Seriously, that's the project's first stated goal. A WEBSITE WHERE PEOPLE CAN TALK TO EACH OTHER AND LOOK SHIT UP. Awesome concept, I wonder why nobody ever thought of that. Definitely worth spending money on. Your money, that is. Not his. He's also not mentioning who the six (!) "incredibly qualified" webmasters are that would be building that site. And why they need money to build it, if they're such big Amiga fans. How many Amiga websites can you think of that cost money up front? Or at all, for that matter?

The Amiga has a few nice websites although they are spread out. The https://wiki.amigaos.net/ is a nice example of documentation especially for developers. I don't know of active websites promoting the Amiga. YouTube retro bloggers seem to be the most active grass roots Amiga promoting media while forums seem to be dying, perhaps partially due to lack of good moderation and maintenance. A centralized non-biased Amiga forum with good moderation could be good but there is so much Amiga division that getting users to leave their forums for a new central one is unlikely. A website with more news, articles and promotions would be good like the Raspberry Pi web site but that works because they have popular standard affordable hardware while the Amiga has division and expensive niche hardware. There are some good Amiga history sites but they are mostly small and scattered except for antique Amiga hardware sites.

cgutjahr Quote:

4. David Pleasance is the guy who's involved with the "Friend OS" people, who's been promoting the Italian trademark thieves selling crappy rebranded phones, who walked around for years claiming that he's working on finally getting the CD1200 manufactured. The guy who only delivered a third of what he initially promised his backers in his "Vampire to Vultures" Kickstarter, because apparently they've got "so much material now" he can sell you three books instead of just one. That guy wants you to give him your money so he can fund hardware and software projects. Unspecified hardware and software projects. It's not even clear who'd decide what to fund.

The history of Amiga scams and criminal activity may be a popular read on a website. There may be enough of it to make a movie. A whole segment about the audacity and antics of Ben Hermans could probably make one of the true crime regular tv episodes. Maybe it would even spawn enough interest for law enforcement to go after him. Too often these small business criminals get away with their crimes. Maybe we could call the movies "How Criminals Plundered, Divided and Killed the Amiga" or maybe we could bring back Dave Haynie to create the "Deathbed Vigil Part 2: How the Vultures Destroyed an Amiga Rebirth". I trust the Amiga Developers more than anyone else involved with the Amiga even though I would rather have them developing a new Amiga than making movies about the 2nd demise to vultures.

cgutjahr Quote:

5. You do not want to watch an extended version of Viva Amiga. Actually, given the last time "Viva Amiga Extended Edition" was offered as bonus content was A-Eonkits "A1222 early bird" promotion, this is developing into another good rule of thumb: If you're offered Viva Amiga Extended Edition as a bonus, walk away - somebody's very desperate apparently. The only reason to take part in this is the downloads the early bird subscribers get access to: I've never heard of "Wavem" studios. Their C64 game, which is part of the bundle, looks like this. It's their first C64 production ever and it sells for no less than 20 Pounds - you have to admire the balls. A trailer for their upcoming video "Amiga - Alive and Kicking" doesn't make me go for my wallet immediately - maybe I'll wait for the extended edition. Note how the Youtube video was posted in July and has exactly one comment - from a spammer. That leaves Viva Amiga extended and pdf/epub and audio versions of Pleasance's first book.

The C64 game look pretty good for the C64. It is kind of a cross between Deluxe Galaga and Star Wars on the Amiga although they probably should have left out the 3D Star Wars part. An Amiga game would have been more appealing for Amiga users.

That Amiga Alive and Kicking trailer doesn't look that bad. Lots of famous Amiga people in there. Trevor Dickinson and Bill Panagouleas are executive produces so it has to be legit, right? It's not like Trevor benefited from and covered up Ben's criminal activity, right? It certainly is easier to make money from movies and books.

cgutjahr Quote:

If you think that bundle's worth 35 Euros, go for it - but make sure you know how to get out of this "alliance" in time before you have to pay for another year.

I won't be the first one in line holding out money. Neither have I payed for any Amiga related books or movies. I would think all this would dry up without affordable Amiga hardware and Amiga users would learn their lessons.

Last edited by matthey on 17-Sep-2022 at 07:01 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 17-Sep-2022 at 06:58 PM.

@cgutjahr

35 euros for all the drama and comedy isn’t too bad.

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@matthey: the organization isn't a non-profit. So, problems will come for sure.

And we already have amigaworld.net which is the most "neutral" and active site related to all Amiga and post-Amiga platforms.