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Poll : Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Yes, I would Join! £30
Yes, for less
Maybe
No
Bad idea, I have a better one....
Pancakes!
 
PosterThread
OlafS25 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 28-Sep-2022 21:21:56
#401 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@Karlos

Perhaps Agami could explain his USP (Unique selling point) of what he plans to do. Because that every investor wants to know. How does whatever he thinks of differentiate from existing platforms?

I always read 3rd platform... next to Windows and MacOS I think Linux is third mainstream platform

My personal idea would be to create something (based on work of Deadwood) that makes Linux much more useable than anything else, is desktop based of course and also integrates Aros.

It will be interesting where it leads to me... I want to have something that I like to use myself. And if that is the case perhaps other people will like ti too

I would like to have a full (some would call it bloated) and integrated desktop

@agami

"The 3rd computing revolution will be marked by the paradoxical de-computing of computing"

What do you mean? Integration of different devices? Smart Home?

Yes of course. It is already there in development. You now have washing machines that can be controlled by apps. But for what you would need your OS? Why it would be better suited for that?

Last edited by OlafS25 on 28-Sep-2022 at 09:28 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 28-Sep-2022 at 09:26 PM.

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agami 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 29-Sep-2022 1:31:54
#402 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1637
From: Melbourne, Australia

@cdimauro

Quote:
cdimauro wrote:

OK, but do you understand that the situation is even worse after this clarification?

You want to create a new platform, but what's the added value compared to the existing ones? Why people should embrace it?

Please refer to this response to @V8
https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=44662&forum=2&start=380&viewmode=flat&order=0#855179

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agami 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 29-Sep-2022 1:57:19
#403 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1637
From: Melbourne, Australia

@OlafS25

Quote:
OlafS25 wrote:
@Karlos

Perhaps Agami could explain his USP (Unique selling point) of what he plans to do. Because that every investor wants to know. How does whatever he thinks of differentiate from existing platforms?

Yes, the investor that listens to my presentation and/or reads my business plan will get to know exactly that.

Also, please refer to this response to @V8
https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=44662&forum=2&start=380&viewmode=flat&order=0#855179

Quote:
I always read 3rd platform... next to Windows and MacOS I think Linux is third mainstream platform

Linux is indeed at present the 3rd mainstream personal computing platform. It is NOT the 3rd commercial consumer computing platform.

Quote:
I would like to have a full (some would call it bloated) and integrated desktop

That computing convention is on the decline, and will disappear entirely within most of our lifetimes.

Quote:
OlafS25 wrote:
@agami

"The 3rd computing revolution will be marked by the paradoxical de-computing of computing"

What do you mean? Integration of different devices? Smart Home?

...

In the 3rd computing revolution, it is expected that the discrete task of computing, as in spending dedicated time out of any given day to the performing of computing oriented tasks through focused interaction with a computing device, will for the most part be eliminated.

Even something as simple as me typing this response in a text window of a web form in a web browser tab dialed into this specific thread on this AW.net forum, will be completely transformed.

Ubiquitous computing is not only the pervasive access to computing irrespective of location, it is also to continued background processing of information to adjust to the changing context (location, time, activity, mental state) of information users.

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agami 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 29-Sep-2022 4:07:10
#404 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1637
From: Melbourne, Australia

@matthey

Quote:
matthey wrote:
agami

I was pretty close on the 3rd computing revolution. I mentioned an evolved virtual assistant and AI. I thought about IoT, AI and a virtual assistant but they have been around for awhile and could be considered 2nd generation. I couldn't think what an evolution of IoT could be called though. It doesn't really need to change as much as finish building out for Big Brother and AI to take control resulting in Skynet, George Orwell's 1984 or the mark of the beast scenarios. Whoever controls the data controls information which is very powerful (Ministry of Truth, government control of the media and Disinformation Governance Board). IoT are the "sensors" that passively input the data all around us.

So you are looking at data input and flows?

1st computing revolution
group input of data

2nd computing revolution
personal input of data

3rd computing revolution
passive input of data

How do we stop the resulting concentration of power and dystopia that follows though?

Data flows is definitely a big part of it.

How do we stop it?
The reality will unlikely be as dire as some of the worst case scenarios painted by doomsday and dystopian fiction. Which is not to say that the concentration of so much control and influence is open to abuse and potentially deleterious to the average person.

We (royal) can't stop it, but we can balance it, through the usual mechanisms: Through decentralization and disaggregation.

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cdimauro 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 29-Sep-2022 4:37:41
#405 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@agami

Quote:

agami wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
cdimauro wrote:

OK, but do you understand that the situation is even worse after this clarification?

You want to create a new platform, but what's the added value compared to the existing ones? Why people should embrace it?

Please refer to this response to @V8
https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=44662&forum=2&start=380&viewmode=flat&order=0#855179

It gives no contribute, like your previous message. This discussion is going nowhere...

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OlafS25 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 29-Sep-2022 7:17:30
#406 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@agami

I vague understand the direction. But perhaps I understood you wrong but we here talked about amiga, Where is the link to amiga? It reminds me of FriendOS. The developers popped up in different forums and even sponsored some events to win new users here. They claimed it has some elements of amiga. The interest in amiga community rapidly declined and then they vanished again. On youtube you find videos and interviews. It seems they indeed were aros developers many years ago. Recently I looked at a video and realized it is a kind of desktop running in browser in the cloud. Nice but not really related to amiga or at least how we understand it. To me it looks like your ideas are propably even more distant to what we here discuss about than FriendOS was and is. Besides that you have nothing to show and do not want to give any details.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 29-Sep-2022 at 10:09 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 29-Sep-2022 at 07:18 AM.

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fishy_fis 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 29-Sep-2022 8:39:24
#407 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 2156
From: Australia

@V8

Quote:
@agami

There is an awful lot of empty words with no actual content. Paradigm this, paradigm that, learn from the 90s and people want to switch to something that will serve them better....................................


Im sure you don't need to be told this, in fact I think its pretty much what you're inferring, but that's because he has no concrete ideas, nor the technical know how to think through the seed of whatever it is in his head he's basing his delusions on, or best case scenario, his ideas are based on existing ideas/concepts and he just wont say them because that would have people pointing out the ideas are nothing new.

He has a history of commentary verging on narcissism....
He knows how to market things properly, he knows how to evolve the computing world, and many other grandiose claims, all the while having done absolutely nothing.
Doesn't take a rocket scientist to read the truth.
Any time anyone presses him on it he just makes links to other equally cryptic vague posts he's made, implying it's an elaboration, which of course it never is. It's always just more elaborate posts that say an equal amount of nothing, just with more words.

The weirdest part of it all is that he seems to think it's not painfully transparent.

Your Belxjander comparison is apt. Main difference is that Belxjander has enough knowledge to be able to talk over those with no real technical knowledge which bought him some attention from some for a while.

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agami 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 29-Sep-2022 9:33:42
#408 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1637
From: Melbourne, Australia

@cdimauro

Quote:
It gives no contribute, like your previous message. This discussion is going nowhere...

OK, I will try and summarize it more plainly:
There is too much information to go through, and I don't find this forum or this form of communication to be adequate to go into the details of the plan.

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agami 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 29-Sep-2022 10:26:34
#409 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1637
From: Melbourne, Australia

@OlafS25

Quote:
...but we here talked about amiga, Where is the link to amiga? It reminds me of FriendOS...

I met the FriendOS guys, Arne and Hogne, at Amiga 30 in Mountain View. At that event they got David Pleasance to join their project.
FriendOS is indeed just a cloud-based virtual desktop, which the creators claim has some inspiration from Amiga OS. I haven't seen what had become of friend OS since 2015, so I can't comment on how much influence from Amiga it has today, beyond the name.

Hogne and I did have an excellent conversation about the future of computing and the inevitable death of the traditional "desktop" computer. While I do wish them every success, our approaches are different.

Where is the link to Amiga?
I have mentioned these in this and a few other conversation threads, but I will summarize, since you asked the question in a friendly and courteous manner:

1. Amiga computers and Amiga OS in early 1993 represented 5% of the global desktop consumer user base. It was the 3rd commercial consumer computing platform of its time. It is the obvious case-study to learn from for an attempt at the next 3rd commercial consumer computing platform.
2. The new operating environment (OE) will be object oriented, more like Amiga OS than macOS
3. The new OE will have modern incarnations of some of the Amiga OS workflows which have not yet been replicated by any of the other platforms
4. The app store for the new platform is much inspired by Aminet
5. The new OE will be highly configurable. Its GUI and workflow engines will allow "theming". It will be possible to make it look and work like Amiga OS.
6. The operating environment will have a built-in Amiga emulator.

Items 5 and 6 are little personal items as both an homage, and to attract current and old Amigans to the new platform.

I know this means very little to most people here, but it's the only way I see moving forward while incorporating a bit of a beloved past.
It certainly can't compete with efforts to preserve and extend old software and hardware, with exciting projects like Apollo FPGA HW, AROS 68k, emu68, and AxRuntime.
These projects have their place, and I am a great admirer and supporter of them.

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OlafS25 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 29-Sep-2022 10:47:52
#410 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@agami

ok

we can discuss it when you really have investors and can show your ideas

I am more interested in desktop stuff and think there is lots of room for improvements there

I do not think that even then many users in the community will be interested in it. Like lack of interest in FriendOS.

David Pleasance seem to be everywhere where money is

Last edited by OlafS25 on 29-Sep-2022 at 10:51 AM.

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Karlos 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 29-Sep-2022 13:51:44
#411 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4394
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@agami

Quote:
2. The new operating environment (OE) will be object oriented, more like Amiga OS than macOS


May God forgive me for defending the fruit worshipper cult but this statement doesn't mean much. BOOPSI was object oriented and thanks to that we had powerful and flexible user interfaces. However to suggest that MacOS doesn't, unless you are referring to some pre OSX version is unfair. OSX builds on NeXT step and although it may make use of the fugly syntactical trainwreck that is, or was, Objective C to achieve it, it's definitely OO.

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Kronos 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 29-Sep-2022 19:25:49
#412 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2553
From: Unknown

@agami

Quote:

agami wrote:

Linux is indeed at present the 3rd mainstream personal computing platform. It is NOT the 3rd commercial consumer computing platform.



If we stick to desktop style platforms Linux is for sure not the 3rd one.
It is the 4th one after ChromeOS.

And it for counts more as a "commercial consumer computing platform" than anything Amiga past ESCOM (debatable past C=, maybe even ever).

In reality (and in response to the rest of your post) "future mainstream personal computing platform" is/will be Meta,TikTok or something down that line.

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BigD 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 29-Sep-2022 20:19:44
#413 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@Kronos

Quote:
And it for counts more as a "commercial consumer computing platform" than anything Amiga past ESCOM (debatable past C=, maybe even ever).


Can you 'buy' Linux software? I thought it is all free under open source isn't it? If it's all 'Star Trek' type "for the good of humanity" endeavour it can hardly be classed as 'commercial' despite the fact that Linux servers and systems are at work in the Public and Private Sectors. It's just I fail to see how the Linux Engineers get any commercial gain beyond knowing about and managing these open source systems!

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BigD 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 29-Sep-2022 20:24:15
#414 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@Kronos

Quote:
han anything Amiga past ESCOM (debatable past C=, maybe even ever).


Since when was the Amiga EVER a not-for-profit/charity! C= paid Atari $500,000 to clear the Los Gatos loan to get the Amiga! This is not small change! The A500 sold like hot cakes and the A1200 would have too if they'd upgraded CSG/MOS to be able to make the chips in-house!

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matthey 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 29-Sep-2022 21:56:15
#415 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1968
From: Kansas

Kronos Quote:

If we stick to desktop style platforms Linux is for sure not the 3rd one.
It is the 4th one after ChromeOS.


ChromeOS is Linux based. Android and Fire OS are Linux based or derived, depending on interpretation, and are also used some for non-desktop semi-desktop use. Bigger businesses customized, standardized and commercialized a Linux like distro. Earlier, Apple commercialized macOS and iOS based on BSD.

Kronos Quote:

And it for counts more as a "commercial consumer computing platform" than anything Amiga past ESCOM (debatable past C=, maybe even ever).


Doesn't everyone realize the failure of the Amiga as a platform after ESCOM? Recognizing the complete failure should provide an opportunity to acquire the "platform" in a fire sale if the Amiga was in a sane world instead of Neverland where time stands still. The Amiga platform is still easier to revive than starting new although it may be easier to use Linux but not necessarily better in the case of the Amiga platform.

Kronos Quote:

In reality (and in response to the rest of your post) "future mainstream personal computing platform" is/will be Meta,TikTok or something down that line.


Big businesses have more influence and resources to build computing platforms but they still have to fill needs. Many big business solutions have been too narrowly targeted or failed to fulfill their targeted roles. ChromeOS tries to take advantage of newer technology moving into web browsers and online while using the conveniences of cloud computing. The platform is vulnerable to low priced competitors that are more versatile and easy to use. Raspberry Pi maybe? ChromeOS allows Linux programs to run in a virtual machine to increase versatility but virtual machines (and emulators) are not competitive as they try to do what the platform was not planned for. Android was designed to take advantage of the "tremendous potential in developing smarter mobile devices that are more aware of its owner's location and preferences". Sound like Agami? Android may have leveraged these new technologies but the big success was likely due to supporting many non-standard smart phone hardwares. It originally used a JIT virtual machine and now uses more efficient AOT compilation to support the non-standard hardware. Android is vulnerable to cheaper standardized hardware with a smaller footprint that avoids AOT compilation, lag and storage requirements. It's probably better to recognize and take advantage of newer technologies rather than depend on them for success. An efficient, flexible, modular, general purpose OS with standard hardware and a small footprint allow low cost building blocks which are still important today. The Amiga has fallen behind in technology but the biggest problem is lack of competitively priced hardware. The Raspberry Pi is just a cheap SBC using a smart phone ARM SoC with some I/O and look how it is used as a building block. The low price means it is used where it was not designed to be used like embedded and desktop use.

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/technical-articles/10-reasons-raspberry-pi-isnt-a-good-choice-for-commercial-products/

The RPi Foundation is designing their own custom SoC ASICs now so such deficiencies may eventually be filled and they won't be vulnerable to competition anymore. They may need to change their hardware standard as they transition to custom SoC ASIC replacements though. They have built their reputation and appear to be smart enough to become the 3rd personal computing platform. They are not a big business either but I expect they are taking market share from ChromeOS and Android. With TFT LCD display capabilities like the article above suggests, mobile and pad options open up to really worry the big businesses with the cheap little standard hardware building blocks. Amiga businesses will probably still be suing each other and beating a dead horse in Neverland though.

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agami 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 30-Sep-2022 5:13:59
#416 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1637
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Karlos

Quote:
However to suggest that MacOS doesn't,

I said the new OS OO architecture will be more like Amiga OS than macOS. Meaning both of these employ an OO architecture but in in different ways, and the new OE will be more like one that the other. It does not in in way imply that macOS isn't or doesn't employ an OO architecture.

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SHADES 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 30-Sep-2022 5:30:30
#417 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 865
From: Melbourne

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote:
The Amiga platform is still easier to revive than starting new although it may be easier to use Linux but not necessarily better in the case of the Amiga platform.


Agreed. There is a lot to say on the "friendliness" on Amiga OS Vs Linux, regardless of its shortcomings, not to mention, footprint.

Quote:
The Amiga has fallen behind in technology but the biggest problem is lack of competitively priced hardware.


Bingo. Very well said.
Unfortunately, that leads to almost zero development/growth only tended towards an eclectic elite-hobby.

Quote:
The Raspberry Pi is just a cheap SBC using a smart phone ARM SoC with some I/O and look how it is used as a building block. The low price means it is used where it was not designed to be used like embedded and desktop use


Well, sort of. As you already know, the statement of use was to provide a compute platform for everyone in the world, even low-income areas. It wasn't just aimed at embedded, although it is very well-placed for it.

Quote:
They have built their reputation and appear to be smart enough to become the 3rd personal computing platform. They are not a big business either but I expect they are taking market share from ChromeOS and Android. With TFT LCD display capabilities like the article above suggests, mobile and pad options open up to really worry the big businesses with the cheap little standard hardware building blocks.


True, and it has also kept a very strong hacker profile, rich on development design for hardware.

I think there is room for Amiga, I hope you even get your 68k ASIC going to be honest, it's just that price tag for development.
I just think the above-mentioned platform is a real opportunity to cash in now and get Amiga moving on an already well suited idea. It could be a new Retro OS of choice etc as a niche and tons of unique hardware could be developed on the platform which already has it's I/O sorted.

Last edited by SHADES on 30-Sep-2022 at 05:43 AM.

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agami 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 30-Sep-2022 5:43:28
#418 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1637
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Kronos

Quote:
If we stick to desktop style platforms Linux is for sure not the 3rd one.
It is the 4th one after ChromeOS.

Neither of these qualify as a commercial consumer computing platform.

There are at present only two (2) commercial consumer computing platforms:
- Microsoft Windows
- Apple macOS

Bit of background, during the second half of the '90s, the world went from three (Windows, Mac, Amiga), to only one (Windows). The diminishing numbers and the correlated reduction in support, relegated Mac to a platform serving legacy use-cases and small niches. Companies like Be Inc. attempted to fill the vacuum.

With Mac OS X and no small part played by HW design and devices like iPod, Apple was able to get back to being the 2nd commercial consumer computing platform.

Linux is a good facsimile for a mainstream computing platform, but it is not commercial, and some still argue if it is ready for the general consumer, for either personal or business use cases.

Chrome OS on Chromebooks, like iPad OS on iPads, are new types of devices which rely on high levels of cloud-services integration and focus on a subset of general consumer computing. While they are evolving and growing, there are still many things that one can't accomplish on these platforms.

To be considered a commercial consumer computing platform requires more than just the fact that HW and apps for the platform are purchased. It has more to do with the broader economic landscape, and support from 3rd party revenue generating entities.

Here's one way to think about it (not the only factor). If Chrome OS was to all of a sudden be abandoned by Google (Alphabet), how likely is it that another revenue generating entity would jump in and spend money to support existing Chrome OS users and work with Google to take over the project? Or is it more likely that it would just die, like Google Stadia?

That's because there is no other revenue generating entity that makes substantial gains from their products service being available on Chromebooks.

For Amiga in the early '90s, one of the key 3rd parties was NewTek. A company that had it's own profitable business leveraging the Amiga platform.
As to why they didn't make a serious play for the Commodore assets during liquidation, you'd have to ask them. I'm sure they looked into it.

Last edited by agami on 30-Sep-2022 at 05:52 AM.
Last edited by agami on 30-Sep-2022 at 05:46 AM.

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SHADES 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 30-Sep-2022 5:47:24
#419 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 865
From: Melbourne

@agami

Quote:
In fact, during the second half of the '90s, the world went from three (Windows, Mac, Amiga), to only one (Windows). The diminishing numbers and the correlated reduction in support, relegated Mac to a platform serving legacy use-cases and small niches. Companies like Be Inc. attempted to fill the vacuum.


Almost a crying shame. Even Haiku (BeOS development) is strides more active and updated than Amiga OS is.

Last edited by SHADES on 30-Sep-2022 at 05:55 AM.

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agami 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 30-Sep-2022 6:07:10
#420 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1637
From: Melbourne, Australia

@SHADES

Quote:
Almost a crying shame. Even Haiku (BeOS development) is strides more active and updated that Amiga OS is.

It is a crying shame. I really liked BeOS.
Gassée made some missteps in not learning from what was happening at NeXT. He tried to do new HW and OS at the same time: Spreading his resources thin.

The initial focus should have been on PReP/CHRP hardware and the PPC Macs and Mac clones. Then once there is a large user base, developer community, and apps library, he could've released the Dual-PowerPC BeBox.

And yes, Haiku progress and status are very impressive. I'm looking forward to the day when I can install it on bare-bones HW like AROS.

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