@NutsAboutAmiga

volunteering also regarding enhancer pack?

@OlafS25

maybe miss read something.. but you find a interesting thread here:

https://www.amigans.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?start=0&topic_id=8932&order=ASC&status=&mode=0

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

No because won’t have video acceleration, and MorphOS does work my machine.

What video do you want accelerating? Those streaming websites you can’t visit because you don’t have a web browser that is capable?

Quote:

And frankly, it’s about as mature as AmigaOS4.1, it won’t be upgrade.

Whether OS4 is as mature as MorphOS is debatable, but it’s irrelevant because you will be replacing OS4 with an immature clone called System54.

Say for arguments sake that MorphOS gained video acceleration and support for your hardware tomorrow and System 54 was released tomorrow.

Would you use it instead of System54?

I know that your answer will be no, but I would like to hear from you why that is the case. Not just you, any current OS4 user.

@OlafS25

Quote:

Aros is migrating/merging with Linux on midtern/longrun, how about you then dropping MorphOS because Aros is offering more software and is running on a mainstream OS with professional support?

Can you give me a URL to download an ISO that will install this on current AmigaOne hardware and runs all the 68k and PPC software that currently runs on OS4?

No.

OS4 users want to use AmigaOS (or a clone) not Linux that might look a bit like Amiga OS but isn’t.

They didn’t even like Amithlon and that completely hid Linux from the user.

As for “professional support”, there’s a company behind Deadwood’s fork now and they will provide support services for it?

Or did you mean people can run his fork on a paid for Linux distribution with support contracts such as RHEL etc?

The only support they will provide is for Linux as shipped, not for AROS running on top of it and we already know that AmigaOS users want to use AmigaOS not Linux.

@Bosanac

yes when available there will be a amiga desktop as base (scalos) and other components and software from aros be ported but all is running as linux software. But I fo not think on PPC but AMD64.

this is the homepage:
https://www.axrt.org/

so it will be "real linux" but with lots of amiga look & feel

with "professional support" I of course mean the linux distribution used for it. My idea would be to use a supported distributiom that can be installed and booted from stick and configure a amiga GUI in it. It will certainly be much more amiga feeling than just a configured linux desktop. I am already looking forward to it doing something with it.

I was not serious here. You will certainly not drop your favorite (morphos) for it even if it is better. And the same is the case for the amigaos user. The best I can do is offer something that is interesting and perhaps people will use it additionally. And perhaps somewhen even use it as main system. That is more constructive than saying "drop your shit and use xyz" (I overdo a little).

Last edited by OlafS25 on 03-Sep-2022 at 07:13 PM.

@OlafS25

I don’t use any of them anymore despite owning hardware that runs them all.

Linux 24/7 for making money and MacOS just for Logic Pro.

@Bosanac

Quote:

Linux 24/7 for making money and MacOS just for Logic Pro.

Thats makes more sense, AmigaOS is just for fun.

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Deleted

Last edited by pixie on 03-Sep-2022 at 08:52 PM.

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Hans Quote:

I think using 68K as a common ISA would work, but don't think that physical classic hardware is an option. They're already gone on all NG Amigas. A common API would be helpful. Right now the graphics.libraries are compatible to 3.x level, and diverged when it comes to handling RTG cards and chunky/truecolour bitmaps. Audio is also messy, as are dockies, notifications, etc.

Classic Amiga hardware using the chipset can work with more abstraction and proper hardware drivers in a NG AmigaOS. AmigaOS 4 PPC compatibility needs to be broken anyway as it was only half NG as far as features needed for the desktop that NG Amiga users want. Hyperion's 68k AmigaOS shows it is possible to port back much of AmigaOS 4 to the 68k while retaining very good compatibility. Ideally, the classic 68k AmigaOS would be retained with compatibility but with AmigaOS 4 upgrades and API improvements where possible and practical. A proper NG AmigaOS with compatibility breaking desktop features like process isolation, SMP support and better 64 bit support could then be made and could run on the same hardware. Amigas support booting into different AmigaOS versions often for compatibility reasons. I would not try to deprecate the classic AmigaOS either but rather try to keep the APIs on par with the desktop AmigaOS as much as practical.

Hans Quote:

I'm interested in seeing more modern features rather than limiting everything to classic hardware + FPGA extensions.

I would like to see more modern features and especially planning of 68k hardware as well. There are already classic improvements like RTG chunky support, digital video output, support for 16 bit audio with more channels, etc. which works great while maintaining Amiga chipset compatibility. Other areas need improvement like the FPGA optimized 68k ISA enhancements, USB support and 3D support of Apollo core hardware. There was some short sighted planning, despite warnings from people like me, due to limitations of an affordable FPGA and lack of AmigaOS support. Proper development should be able to maintain both compatibility and support modern features and performance. Thomas Hirsch should have received more backing and support for the Natami over a decade ago but people ahead of their time are often ignored. These are real developers trying to modernize the Amiga while maintaining compatibility which was hugely popular even back then (there were likely hundreds of thousands of people following the development judging by Natami forum activity). Honestly, an ASIC is still needed to fully modernize the Amiga and bring a competitive performance/price but that isn't so expensive anymore and the price is almost certainly headed lower with recent fab planning.

The Raspberry Pi Foundation custom RP2040 SoC ASIC is a good example of a very successful ASIC likely with minimal investment. A custom ASIC allows more customization where they were able to address limitations of using commodity SoC chips and better prioritize features important to them.

https://www.arm.com/blogs/blueprint/raspberry-pi-rp2040 Quote:

Designing a sub-$5 computer involves several tough decisions. Decisions such as which instruction set architecture (ISA) to use and which class of chip IP to select from within that ecosystem in order to balance price, power and performance. Then there are design and manufacturing questions: who’s going to design the system on chip (SoC) and who’s going to fabricate it? All of these considerations dictate how useful and affordable your final product is. So when it came to selecting a chip to power our first microcontroller-class product, Raspberry Pi Pico, we knew that we needed to push that price-performance ratio harder than ever before.

I know I sound like a broken record so people should realize this sounds like me. Why can't Amiga have leadership like this? Do Amiga owners realize how frustrating it is to watch Amiga opportunities being squandered time and time again?

https://www.arm.com/blogs/blueprint/raspberry-pi-rp2040 Quote:

But those familiar with Raspberry Pi might wonder what prompted this move into microcontrollers after 8 years of designing products capable of running a general-purpose operating system (OS) like Linux. To answer that, we need to consider that many current applications for Pi connect it to the physical world—bridging software and hardware, reading sensors and driving actuators. We’ve seen Pi used to monitor sensors on the International Space Station (ISS), or sort cucumbers in Japan. These esoteric applications demonstrate the breadth of Pi’s capability, yet Raspberry Pi does not support analogue input directly—and software running under a general-purpose OS is not well suited to low-latency control of individual input/output (I/O) pins.

The embedded success came from pushing down the price of hardware but the commodity SoCs they were using lacked analogue support which even the original 1985 Amiga chipset supports in Paula. Throwing away the OS to achieve low latency I/O control is a pain especially considering it is unnecessary as the practically real time AmigaOS has demonstrated for many years including with embedded products like the Video Toaster. Some Amiga users think it is necessary to throw away the old outdated Amiga but it can still have life with an effort to "push that price-performance ratio harder than ever before" and make Amiga hardware competitive again. An Amiga 68060+chipset SoC ASIC could use fewer transistors than the RP2040 SoC ASIC which sells for $1 although I would aim higher performance with more modern features. The RP2040 SoC is aimed at the ultra low power embedded market and IoT as the choice of the lowest power ARM CPU Cortex-M0+ cores at only 133MHz demonstrates while 3GHz CPU operation is possible in the 40nm process (first gen Intel Core i7 CPUs reached 3GHz in a 45nm process).

It would likely cost millions of U.S. dollars to develop and produce an ASIC but this is the cost of being competitive. There is risk but I see greater risk in continuing to produce noncompetitive hardware or trying to make a profit as a software only business. Amiga owners who think millions in capital is too much should sell out because this isn't amateur league baseball. An alliance should be able to raise millions and accept outsider investment likely through stock issue. A single business entity as Amiga Corporation would be ideal with an expectation of shareholder stock dilution until business viability is obtained. If this is unacceptable then consider combining everything and seeing if a business like the Raspberry Pi Foundation would be interesting in buying the Amiga. They could use the old Amiga technology that the Amiga NG community wants to throw away to reduce the footprint of SoCs with an OS and introduce retro gaming. Please don't let the Amiga technology go to waste like it is now.

Hans Quote:

Karlos' MC64K ISA would be an interesting addition too.

There is no need to make the 68k ISA little endian and downgrade decoding efficiency to that of x86(-64) with an ASIC. Planning for emulation instead of hardware is accepting obsolescence.

@matthey

Quote:

Classic Amiga hardware using the chipset can work with more abstraction and proper hardware drivers in a NG AmigaOS.

No, if classic hardware is part of the specification, then either the hardware needs to be present, or it needs to be emulated. Keeping the specification to APIs only makes things hardware independent, so the software can potentially run on all AmigaOS clones.

Quote:

AmigaOS 4 PPC compatibility needs to be broken anyway as it was only half NG as far as features needed for the desktop that NG Amiga users want.

I don't think AmigaOS 4 users share your opinion. It's very clear you want to go back to 68K/Vampire, that's your preferred future. Others don't share your vision, including me.

Realize that you're telling someone who has worked on the AmigaOS 4 ecosystem for almost two decades that we should basically dump everything we've done, and go back to 68K.

I'm okay with 68K forming part of a common standard because the JIT emulators are already there. My preference is for everything to be recompiled to native machine code.

Quote:

There is no need to make the 68k ISA little endian and downgrade decoding efficiency to that of x86(-64) with an ASIC. Planning for emulation instead of hardware is accepting obsolescence.

If we're going to run 68K code using JIT emulation, then there's no issue at all with using a different virtual machine ISA as the source byte-code. It's no different from using Java byte-code, which is used extensively on Android mobile devices.

But, as said earlier it's clear your vision is an ASIC 68K system, and NOT a common standard for all AmigaOS variants.

Hans

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@Hans

Out interest Hans, how much of OS4 could be recompiled as 68k binaries and run on Petunia?

@Bosanac

Quote:

Out interest Hans, how much of OS4 could be recompiled as 68k binaries and run on Petunia?

No idea, sorry. I've only ever worked on small areas related to graphics, so haven't seen the vast majority of OS4 code.

It would partially depend on how much code uses __USE_INLINE__ instead of the OS4 style library interfaces (e.g., IExec->). Some newer libraries won't have 68K jump tables, because there's no 68K sofware to use them. Neither of those problems are hard to work around.

AmiSSL v5 is the only library I know of, where they had to jump through hoops to get it working on 68K. The problem was caused by OpenSSL having more API functions than can fit in a 68K library jump table. With some impressive work, AmiSSL v5 works on 68K...

Hans

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Hans Quote:

No, if classic hardware is part of the specification, then either the hardware needs to be present, or it needs to be emulated. Keeping the specification to APIs only makes things hardware independent, so the software can potentially run on all AmigaOS clones.

The chipset hardware is part of the classic AmigaOS specification but it would not be on the true NG desktop AmigaOS which breaks compatibility and uses proper abstraction through drivers to access the chipset. The chipset would still be available which would make sandboxed classic apps more compatible. Eventually, the true NG OS could move to other architectures and hardware but some Amiga users would likely prefer the better compatibility provided by 68k+chipset Amiga hardware.

Hans Quote:

I don't think AmigaOS 4 users share your opinion. It's very clear you want to go back to 68K/Vampire, that's your preferred future. Others don't share your vision, including me. Realize that you're telling someone who has worked on the AmigaOS 4 ecosystem for almost two decades that we should basically dump everything we've done, and go back to 68K. I'm okay with 68K forming part of a common standard because the JIT emulators are already there. My preference is for everything to be recompiled to native machine code.

The PPC AmigaOS 4 is dead end anyway because the PPC architecture is dead and AmigaOS 4 was not improved enough with desktop features to be competitive on the desktop (most Amiga NG users want a desktop AmigaOS). It would be possible to license a PPC CPU core and GPU core to make a PPC SoC ASIC but the majority of Amiga users prefer the better compatibility of Amiga 68k+chipset and it is obvious that there is an inadequate market for a PPC Amiga. How many decades of PPC Amiga failure does it take for it to be obvious that the PPC Amiga market is dead while the retro/classic Amiga market is booming? AmigaOS 4 didn't gain enough by breaking Amiga 68k+chipset compatibility to be worthwhile and most of the functionality can be ported back to 68k+chipset hardware especially if CPU and GPU performance and features are improved to be more inline with AmigaOS 4 hardware. This would practically give AmigaOS 4 on 68k+chipset Amiga hardware with improved Amiga compatibility compared to PPC hardware. It wouldn't be so much moving the Amiga backward as pulling the majority of the Amiga market which wants 68k+chipset forward. The larger Amiga market can then benefit from economies of scale to lower the cost of Amiga hardware. While PPC Amiga users may be unhappy that their hardware is end of life, some may appreciate cheaper and more compatible 68k+chipset Amiga hardware. PPC Amiga support could be retained until replacement goals are met and they will continue to be usable computers. If 68k+chipset Amiga hardware is financially successful, then a more competitive desktop AmigaOS could be started that is fully NG instead of half NG. I have heard some PPC Amiga users calling to break compatibility so that a more competitive desktop AmigaOS can be created. If ignoring the majority of the Amiga market which is 68k+chipset and moving to ARM, it would be better to break AmigaOS 4 compatibility and fully modernize to a desktop AmigaOS to improve competitiveness. ARM is an easier choice but realize that moving further from a booming 68k+chipset Amiga market will further alienate Amiga users rather than uniting them and the choice will be viewed as more elitist and arrogant than the original PPC Amiga choice where there were not as many options to stay with 68k+chipset hardware.

Hans Quote:

If we're going to run 68K code using JIT emulation, then there's no issue at all with using a different virtual machine ISA as the source byte-code. It's no different from using Java byte-code, which is used extensively on Android mobile devices. But, as said earlier it's clear your vision is an ASIC 68K system, and NOT a common standard for all AmigaOS variants.

Java byte code brings no emulation improvement. Android used it as an intermediate format/language and compile target likely because it is easier to parse than most native binaries and not because it is easier to emulate. ART uses AOT compilation to native binary format which replaced the inefficient Dalvik byte code VM emulation. The whole inefficient process is due to lack of ARM standardization. Multiple Amiga smart phones with 68k+chipset SoCs would not have this kludge and applets could be sent as small compressed binaries. If you wanted to increase overhead then an unnecessary VM would do it. I would rather see the Amiga move toward standardization and unity rather than diverge away from it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalvik_(software)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_Runtime

Last edited by matthey on 04-Sep-2022 at 06:15 AM.
Last edited by matthey on 04-Sep-2022 at 06:02 AM.

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @OlafS25 Cloanto legal case with Hyperion puts owner ship in doubt, and if Cloanto wins, they might demand fee for using the Amiga name, they also talked about open source ‘ing AmigaOS, AmigaKits business (and theoretically Hyperion) is selling and putting revenues back into development. (of course, Hyperion has spent all their money on legal battles, instead. And thanks to Cloanto, failed to grow there business when Amiga Inc case ended.)

Thanks to Cloanto? For defending ITS business?!? Are you reading what you write?

Care to tell me why they have changed the copyright AFTER releasing the first set of 3.1.4 ROMs?
Quote:

Clean room implementation means getting out of the legal swamp. Buying up Hyperion’s assets means they can end up in legal battle with Cloanto. And then your back to square 1.

You should let Hyperion die and run out of business, instead: this is the only way to get rid of Mr. Hermans and all his poison.

@matthey

Quote:

The PPC AmigaOS 4 is dead end anyway because the PPC architecture is dead and AmigaOS 4 was not improved enough with desktop features to be competitive on the desktop (most Amiga NG users want a desktop AmigaOS). It would be possible to license a PPC CPU core and GPU core to make a PPC SoC ASIC but the majority of Amiga users prefer the better compatibility of Amiga 68k+chipset and it is obvious that there is an inadequate market for a PPC Amiga. How many decades of PPC Amiga failure does it take for it to be obvious that the PPC Amiga market is dead while the retro/classic Amiga market is booming? AmigaOS 4 didn't gain enough by breaking Amiga 68k+chipset compatibility to be worthwhile and most of the functionality can be ported back to 68k+chipset hardware especially if CPU and GPU performance and features are improved to be more inline with AmigaOS 4 hardware. This would practically give AmigaOS 4 on 68k+chipset Amiga hardware with improved Amiga compatibility compared to PPC hardware. It wouldn't be so much moving the Amiga backward as pulling the majority of the Amiga market which wants 68k+chipset forward. The larger Amiga market can then benefit from economies of scale to lower the cost of Amiga hardware. While PPC Amiga users may be unhappy that their hardware is end of life, some may appreciate cheaper and more compatible 68k+chipset Amiga hardware. PPC Amiga support could be retained until replacement goals are met and they will continue to be usable computers. If 68k+chipset Amiga hardware is financially successful, then a more competitive desktop AmigaOS could be started that is fully NG instead of half NG. I have heard some PPC Amiga users calling to break compatibility so that a more competitive desktop AmigaOS can be created. If ignoring the majority of the Amiga market which is 68k+chipset and moving to ARM, it would be better to break AmigaOS 4 compatibility and fully modernize to a desktop AmigaOS to improve competitiveness. ARM is an easier choice but realize that moving further from a booming 68k+chipset Amiga market will further alienate Amiga users rather than uniting them and the choice will be viewed as more elitist and arrogant than the original PPC Amiga choice where there were not as many options to stay with 68k+chipset hardware.

It's great that people are enjoying their classic 68K Amigas, and even extending it with FPGAs. However, I'm not interested in ditching my 2 GHz machine with PCIe and going back to ~100 MHz 68K. If that makes me "elitist and arrogant," then so be it.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'd like to get back to enjoying AmigaOS 4. It's pretty good for a "PPC Amiga failure."

Hans

P.S., Couldn't resist nit-picking a bit: AmigaOS 4 didn't break 68K compatibility.

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@cdimauro

Quote:

Thanks to Cloanto? For defending ITS business?!? Are you reading what you write?

His business was never in threat. He screws up everything because of paranoia.

Quote:

You should let Hyperion die and run out of business, instead

Hyperion might need to change, going bankrupt might be the only option for company if can’t pay its debts. Business is not a charity.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 04-Sep-2022 at 11:11 AM.

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Having a strict subset of the 68K user mode ISA that runs as a Common Language Runtime on real 68020+ and effectively under JIT, to my mind, is the only sensible future for the platform. This would need to be coupled with a standardised ABI and library set. The entire scene is too fractured and broken for anything else to have a chance of working.

Last edited by Karlos on 04-Sep-2022 at 10:55 AM.

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@Hans

Quote:

Karlos' MC64K ISA would be an interesting addition too

Lol, it wouldn't be the first time something created as a joke / for fun earned a totally undeserved degree of legitimacy. I mean, damn, look at JavaScript...

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@Hans

Quote:

Now if you'll excuse me, I'd like to get back to enjoying AmigaOS 4. It's pretty good for a "PPC Amiga failure." 

Yeah, it is a bit of a failure, but not technically. It is held ransom by the Hyperion/Cloanto dispute and you couldn't buy a AmigaOne/Sam machine very easily or affordably right now. But you probably wouldn't have to wait long for a THEA500 Mini, PiStorm, Vampire/V4 Standalone, Mister or UnArmiga to arrive. There's healthy competition in the 68k space because there is a healthy market. Metro Siege, Reshoot III Proxima, Creeping Me Out and Wizoid amongst other games on their way. Plus a reworked Alien Breed 3D 2 that for the first time might actually be playable and fun! I still like messing around with Deluxe Paint, Scala and Lightwave too! I don't need AmigaOS 4.x or System 54 to do that!

What exactly does AmigaOS 4.x offer users over the 3.x 'Classic' 68k experience other than stuff they can do on their daily driver i.e. email, office apps and media heavy internet stuff?

Last edited by BigD on 04-Sep-2022 at 12:19 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 04-Sep-2022 at 12:15 PM.

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@BigD

We have some good news from m3x about that.

If people want upgrade from 68060 or THEA500 Mini, PiStorm, Vampire/V4 Standalone, Mister or UnArmiga or AmigaONE-SE/XE.

you get decent Sam460 computer, for the lowend market.

https://www.amigans.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=8709&start=20

The Sam460 is pretty capable computer with proper FPU, a proper MMU, with good support for modern GPU’s.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 04-Sep-2022 at 01:45 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 04-Sep-2022 at 01:28 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 04-Sep-2022 at 01:26 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 04-Sep-2022 at 01:24 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 04-Sep-2022 at 01:14 PM.

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