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      /  Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year! :-)
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PosterThread
Hans 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 2:13:39
#121 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4993
From: New Zealand

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Quote:
"let's pretend I had NDAs and I protect important industrial secrets!"

I really have signed NDAs. Whether they protect important industrial secrets or not is irrelevant when it comes to honouring agreements.

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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Hammer 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 2:27:02
#122 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4611
From: Australia

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote:
@OlafS25

Amithlon also runs native x86 binaries buildt for Amithlon.

Amithlon needs UAE to run WHDLoad 68K Amiga games.

Most modern PCs (up to UEFI Class 2) are built with VGA chipset legacy instead of Amiga chipset legacy.

Amithlon is not Vampire or PiStorm/Emu68 that supports Amiga chipset legacy.

I view Amithlon as a wannabe AmigaOS 4.x PowerPC for Amiga X86.

_________________
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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 3:31:43
#123 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Quote:

Quote:
"let's pretend I had NDAs and I protect important industrial secrets!"


I really have signed NDAs. Whether they protect important industrial secrets or not is irrelevant when it comes to honouring agreements.

Hans



You are missing the point,
friend Hans.

It's the fact itself someone felt it was necessary to have that NDA,
and that you signed it rather than laughing it off,
and that you cited it.

It's this whole taking themselves, yourselves oh so seriously.



We need to have a chat about unnecessary solemnity.




/MEGA!

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SHADES 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 3:52:06
#124 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 827
From: Melbourne

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Quote:
Just stop it! Nobody greedy would touch the Amiga market. Ben Hermans has his faults, but he's not stupid enough to think he could get rich by squeezing out the Amiga community. Likewise, not even Trevor would invest over 1 million pounds (or whatever it was) just to add a few more machines to his Amiga computer museum. Suggestions like this are so ridiculous it's comical. As for the rest of your speculation, NDAs prohibit me from saying anything more than you're way off in fantasy land. Your habit of assuming ill intent is getting the better of you.


I agree with Hans. It's almost insane.
I had an NDA come across my desk just 2 days ago.
It had nothing to do with being or, even pretending to be a company director, relevant tech company or thought therof however, they do want to protect their multitude of investors and IP.

Trevor, whatever his reasons are, does pay his people and produce products for Amiga and helps to fund its development. He does this even with all the IP related hassles, unlike many other companies that have circled in Amiga-land, for lack of a better term.

I haven't enjoyed the direction of PPC either if that's what all this is about?
The expense and lack of market penetration, has destroyed development but even Trevor didn't choose that direction to begin with. He went with the driection already started.
I'm sure he sees the cost of this decision as well, after hearing his comments.
I don't understand your hate to be honest.
Maybe you should clarify why you take it so personally, so we can understand you better.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 4:21:54
#125 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Quote:

SHADES wrote:

I don't understand your hate to be honest.
Maybe you should clarify why you take it so personally, so we can understand you better.




GODS DO NOT SPEAK THE LANGUAGE OF ANTS







/M!

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cdimauro 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 4:57:27
#126 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3097
From: Germany

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote:
So there are two separate issues being discussed here

[...]

However, the brutal truth is that they are a dying breed. Figuratively (and literally, I mean we're not getting any younger) as there's little new PPC HW coming out. On the flipside, x64 and AArch64 are legion.

+2

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Hans 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 5:05:17
#127 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4993
From: New Zealand

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Quote:
You are missing the point,
friend Hans.

Sorry. It can be hard to tell if you have "a point," let alone "the point."

Hans

_________________
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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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cdimauro 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 5:11:21
#128 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3097
From: Germany

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:

Because they can do it from the performance/drawn power PoV.


Although they've customised it and called it "Apple Silicon" they don't have the control over it like with PowerPC.

Actually Apple had/have that control: that's what happened with their completely custom ARM cores, which no other ARM chip vendor equates.
Quote:
Apple managed to control desktop PowerPC and hijack it from other vendors until the end. The XE G4 was delayed because Apple took priority shipment of G4 CPUs. When they give up PPC they suspiciously kill off the P.A.Semi line and almose killed off the X1000 in the process. With ARM they can customise but they can't hijack it away from other markets.

Which is not true: Apple wasn't the PowerPC ISA owner. It was ONE member of the consortium which created it. So, it hadn't full control of the ISA.
Quote:
Quote:
I don't see why the endianess is a problem with any o.s., OS4 included.


It's built directly off the 68K structures so has some dependence on it. They may have depreciated 68K specific functions but 68K is still tightly wound into it, not only in internal objects and other data types, but things like a an emulated 68K interrupt are actually ran in the PowerPC native supervisor mode. I think that's a level too far. Some Exec data is hidden but it needs more closing up where data objects are still exposed. Also, the old objects are word aligned, so not good for PowerPC that like long alignments which is also a good reason to replace them.

Again, you're mixing the PowerPC implementation with the 68k one. That's the problem.

If you completely remove the 68k from the "equation", what's left is a pure PowerPC implementation (port, specifically) of the original Amiga o.s.. From this PoV I don't what problem can cause the data structures used by the o.s..

In fact, it caused no problems to AROS, whose first implementation was made for the 80386: a little endian and completely different CPU.

Of course, there are some APIs (like GetCC) strictly bounded to 68k but the implementation can be ignored, since they were aimed mostly for 68k assembly applications. Those APIs could be adapted or even not implemented (RTS/RET immediately).
Quote:
Quote:
Unless Petunia is mandatory to have it ported as well.


No, it would need to be replaced. It's PPC only. Both BlackBox and Petunia.

BlackBox is the apparent name of the static 68K emulator built into Exec. Perhaps it was a Ride on Time?

Easiest would be writing a new one or porting over an existing one to replace both. Since both 68K and PPC support would be expected. A PPC emulator could cover both and emulate PPC while an emulated Petunia could do 68K,

No, please: just provide/use a native 68k emulator
Quote:
but 68K emulators are faster at present.

Exactly.
Quote:
Quote:
Same as above: I don't see why this could block a port to any other architecture. It should be possible to rewrite it.


They've managed to create a structure with an interrupt context that is fully PPC dependant. It has no space for a CPU type which would have allowed expansion. So it's harder to write portable code that needs to switch to another object manually. Or more awkward. There's also some PPC specific functions in there. So there's more dependencies to crack.

Which is normal on all o.ses: those processor-specific parts needs proper implementations which are different from all other processors.
Quote:
Realistically the current API would need to be depreciated as a whole and replaced for true portability. It just doesn't need rewriting, it needs replacing in my mind, to be portable.

It's not an impossible mission: just take a look at AROS...

Processor-specific parts are a very small part of an o.s..
Quote:
Quote:
Here is it: Efficiently Migrate Byte-Order-Sensitive Applications


That's interesting. I like the way they consider big endian to be a legacy endian. Little endian is still a legacy endian, but it's in common use, so they don't call it that. Of course, apart from code, there is big endian data like network objects and others. I read talk online of how everything should be converted to little endian. I disagree if it's just to force it into a popular data endian and not for any practical use. Network packets make sense since it has a dotted quad, so made sense to have four bytes in order. In any case modern CPUs can deal with it easily, if people want to read four bytes as a long word, and in that case they can be on their own.

It is working the opposite way to my idea. Working with big endian data in a little endian code model. Since my idea is to keep big endian data and restrict code to big endian read/writes. If the compiler still exists the OS4 team can give it a go. The endian extensions should be in every compiler now and GCC.

Indeed. IF you still want to run 68k (and PowerPC) applications transparently.

Which I think that it's better to forget, since then you're still completely blocked to a 32-bit o.s. (not 64-bit native o.s. is possible).
Quote:
Quote:
BTW, this compiler was developed by the general site manager were I was employed.


Nice one. Now they only need the big endian version to port browsers and other little endian order code. To OS4.

You can ask.
Quote:
Quote:
Supported components would be needed, like with AROS.


Yes, that would be the prime reference. I imagine a PC with UBoot. Or it won't boot OS4.

UBoot is a prerequisite only for the current (all?) OS4 implementation. Not necessarily for new ports.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 5:53:47
#129 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

My point...

Quote:
It's this whole taking themselves, yourselves oh so seriously.

We need to have a chat about unnecessary solemnity.


...and you, promptly making
my point while saying you missed it:

Quote:

Hans wrote:

Sorry. It can be hard to tell if you have "a point," let alone "the point."



Oh my friends,
oh friends of mine,
THE ENDLESS MIRTH!


/MEGA!

_________________
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--
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Rob 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 6:27:20
#130 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6234
From: S.Wales

@cdimauro

Quote:
Actually Apple had/have that control: that's what happened with their completely custom ARM cores, which no other ARM chip vendor equates.


Apple don't get to determine the fate of ARM.

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Hans 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 6:27:26
#131 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4993
From: New Zealand

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Quote:
...and you, promptly making
my point while saying you missed it:

I guess I should have put a smiley at the end so you wouldn't take that comment so seriously...

Hans

_________________
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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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Hammer 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 8:23:25
#132 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4611
From: Australia

@Rob

Quote:

Rob wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
Actually Apple had/have that control: that's what happened with their completely custom ARM cores, which no other ARM chip vendor equates.


Apple don't get to determine the fate of ARM.


Apple added support for x86 memory ordering to the M1 CPU.

When running translated x86 code, Apple's OS switches the mode of the CPU to conform to Intel's memory ordering. Rosetta 2 doesn't support Intel AVX. Rosetta 2 will not be able to translate kernel extensions nor will it support the virtualization of x86_64 platforms.


It's one of the major problems affecting Microsoft's emulation of x86 on their Arm-based "Surface" laptops. Microsoft's x86 emulation doesn't support Intel AVX.

https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/18/02/19/2116255/microsoft-finally-documents-the-limitations-of-windows-10-on-arm



Last edited by Hammer on 26-Oct-2022 at 08:31 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 26-Oct-2022 at 08:29 AM.

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matthey 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 8:30:46
#133 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1684
From: Kansas

#6 Quote:

If you see things being done that don't make sense...

Perhaps there is something in signed agreements and/or contracts that would illustrate a limitation as to what the entities can do?


Vultures don't care about the difference between dead and almost dead anymore than they care about any other limitation. They are opportunists that prey on the weak that can't defend themselves. Trevor financially backed his fix it man Ben to illegitimately acquire his AmigaOne brand and AmigaOS 4 from the owner until he realized his crooked crony was stealing from him like he had him steal for him. Now his hardware doesn't have branding or AmigaOS 4 licensing and development. Instead, Ben has gone in to steal more of the almost dead Amiga corpse. There is no limitation of PPC for AmigaOS 4 in the 2009 predatory contract Ben wrote for himself practically gifting Hyperion Amiga IP/assets for free. Ben could have ported AmigaOS 4 to any other architecture but that requires cash and the quickest cash came from the 68k retro market which wasn't included in his dream contract perhaps because it was already licensed to Cloanto. Michele Battilana buying Amiga Inc. IP means his businesses now owns all Amiga IP including the AmigaOS but Ben still holds it hostage. The AmigaOS 4 and AmigaOne falling out actually happened before this when Ben gave up on the unprofitable and dying PPC AmigaOne market while Trevor persists, perhaps until he makes only one AmigaOne of each model he pays to create for his rare bastard Amiga collection. Trevor created and bailed out Ben. They deserve each other. Their businesses should merge and call themselves Hype-eon.

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Rob 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 11:01:23
#134 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6234
From: S.Wales

@Hammer

I'll put it another way. Arm won't die if Apple decide to switch to a different architecture in the future.

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OlafS25 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 17:22:43
#135 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6203
From: Unknown

@matthey

there was a developer on amigans who recently moaned that his sources were backported to 68k without any license. If we assume that this is true and that developer is not the only who was not correctly paid then I would say even if porting to another platform would be doable, Hyperion would not have the legal rights to do it. Of course this all could be solved with money. But honestly I do not see the customer needs it covers and where it is better compared to much bigger platforms like linux. It is just unrealistic dreams. You already know where I see more chances but of course this will not create a new platform. I do not see need or room for another mainstream platform. There is some potential for further growth in retro market but here discussions are about PPC and AmigaOS. Both not really retro.

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kolla 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 17:32:14
#136 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2379
From: Trondheim, Norway

They should just stop “porting” buggy stuff from os4 to 68k already.

_________________
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cdimauro 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 19:02:14
#137 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3097
From: Germany

@Rob

Quote:

Rob wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
Actually Apple had/have that control: that's what happened with their completely custom ARM cores, which no other ARM chip vendor equates.


Apple don't get to determine the fate of ARM.

Neither the PowerPC one.

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SHADES 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 21:26:26
#138 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 827
From: Melbourne

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Quote:
GODS DO NOT SPEAK THE LANGUAGE OF ANTS


lol I'll just assume that it's "special person time" for you then. Perhaps you need some more "thoughts and prayers"

_________________
It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

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SHADES 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 21:53:02
#139 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 827
From: Melbourne

@matthey

Quote:
The AmigaOS 4 and AmigaOne falling out actually happened before this when Ben gave up on the unprofitable and dying PPC AmigaOne market while Trevor persists, perhaps until he makes only one AmigaOne of each model he pays to create for his rare bastard Amiga collection. Trevor created and bailed out Ben. They deserve each other. Their businesses should merge and call themselves Hype-eon.


Maybe Trevor didn't see any other way at the time and really thought he was going to help get Amiga going again.
I mean, you just don't know what happened behind closed door and it's not the first time Ben has gotten money out of people for nothing, either by not paying for their work, or suing them.
If you look at what Tevor is still trying to do with the OS, you can't say he's doing it for his own personal collection of AMIGA one-offs. That's ludicrous.
Doesn't mean he hasn't made mistakes, granted but...um yeah-nah, you're grasping at crap for no reason on he just wants to only expand his own personal collection.
Sure, he does want to expand the Amiga range and continue the Amiga development, it's just not only for himself. I think that's quite self-evident in product alone.

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SHADES 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 21:55:31
#140 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 827
From: Melbourne

@kolla

Quote:
They should just stop “porting” buggy stuff from os4 to 68k already.


This could be down to developers not getting paid for their work as well.
Why would you put in the effort. At least Trevor pays his people. Maybe it has a chance of getting fixed now.

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