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      /  Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year! :-)
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PosterThread
MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 30-Oct-2022 7:43:30
#201 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Meanwhile, the Wayfarer Browser is going 4.0.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 30-Oct-2022 10:55:35
#202 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@Hammer

You think the ARM or X86 will huge advantage, but they always problem of running something none native on a host, and hardware looks impressive on paper, the emulation environment is not exposing the hardware to its guest os & hw, essential what this means is that accurately support for host os is none existent in guest OS.

it does not matter what GL specification your host has, It’s not used.

When it comes to emulation what put in is not the same as what you get out, its like when you do money exchange at the airport.

you have 100$ you exchange it to £, and back to $, and etch time you do that you end up little less, because your paying a fee.

$ to $ is the same, exchange fee is % of whatever you put in..
let’s say I put in 2Ghz in and get 1Ghz back.

in this case fee depends on how different the host OS/HW is to its guest OS/HW, and if the guest is able to take direct advantage of host hardware, which it cannot; due to lack of drivers on the guest OS.

without that you, end up with framebuffers, and that’s exactly what most emulators have, this means copying or converting it before displaying it. LE modes are somewhat supported on AmigaOS, so in case of LE mode its simple copy, yet CPU cycles spent on copying does increases by resolution, yes of course depending emulator, presenting FB, can be slightly accelerated for example scaling to the host window of the emulator. In case you’re dealing with BE, you need to convert it to LE before presenting it, that operation is bit more costly, its small fee per pixel, and scales with depth, and resolution, for example 15bit/16bit is faster to convert then 32bit, with its double amount of data, 320x250 (64000 pixels) vs 640x480 (307200 pixels), the larger the resolution the worst it gets. When 4080/4K/8K we expect all resolutions LE, no graphics made today are BE that I know of, anyhow most interesting stuff is maybe 15bit/BE, of course many demos and games that are system friendly support different resolutions.

In short, emulation virtualization and guest driver support need major makeover to make any host hardware specifications meaningful, when comes to direct comparison.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 30-Oct-2022 11:05:00
#203 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@Hammer

Quote:
Amiga CD32/A1200's expansion bus is slower than USB 2.0.


That’s true, but seen any USB to Zorro / Zorro III adapters, now be interesting if it existed, can it work with ActionReplay III, I’m bit doubt full, but not hardware geek, well work with emulation its problems, and find that interesting.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 30-Oct-2022 11:21:55
#204 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@Hammer

Quote:

Amiga platform should maintain 68K CLR.

Softtbank's mismanaging ARM might end up like Japan Inc's SuperH.


Well proven to be double write JIT compiler by one person several times, it certainly possible to find different CPU, with BI-endianness, if possible. ARM might last, but at least option, right now for low-end Amiga market.

Staying in the none comparative emulation market forever, is not good idea. Who knows where wind might blow.

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Karlos 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 30-Oct-2022 12:52:12
#205 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4394
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@NutsAboutAmiga

"it does not matter what GL specification your host has, It’s not used."

Yet it could be. OpenGL by design is a server/client architecture. There's absolutely no reason why you couldn't have entirely native open GL server exposed to an emulator client. I would expect some endian conversion problems to be solved in the interface between the two but it's not insurmountable. If you are doing OpenGL "right" on modern implementations, everything is being done via buffers and assets that are front loaded into the GPUs memory and updated from the client only infrequently. If you are sticking to the older matrix stack model then it's a bit more of a bind.

The situation is probably more complicated for Vulkan due to its lower level design though I'm much less familiar with it.

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matthey 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 30-Oct-2022 19:39:51
#206 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1968
From: Kansas

Hammer Quote:

From ARM's claims
At the same frequency, Cortex-A53 delivers more than 20% higher instruction throughput than the Cortex-A9 for representative workloads.

the Cortex-A53 achieves higher single-thread performance by pushing a simpler design farther – some of the key factors enabling the performance of the Cortex-A53 include the integrated low latency level 2 cache, the larger 512 entry main TLB, and the complex branch predictor


ARM knows how to market. The Cortex-A53 indeed has improvements like a lower latency L2, larger TLB cache and better branch prediction (along with lower branch mis-predict penalty of 7 cycles vs 12 cycles of Cortex-A9).

L2 latency
Cortex-A53 15 cycles
Cortex-A9 23 cycles (same as PPC e500v2 core L2 latency in A1222)

The in-order multi-issue rate is improved over the Coretex-A7 which it is based on. The Cortex-A53 with AArch64 has more standard and better integrated units, resources and features than the older more modular a la cart cores which boosts performance but requires more area/transistors. This is offset by upgrading customers from the old OoO 32 bit Cortex-A9 to the new in-order 64 bit Cortex-A53. The Cortex-A53 improvements and newer fab processes which it targets help close the performance gap (ARM sometimes deceptively compares their newer designs using a newer process to their older designs using an older process). The result is that newer chips with the Cortex-A53 are roughly the same integer performance as older Cortex-A9 chips while the Cortex-A53 has an advantage for non-integer workloads due to reduced cache latencies. The 2.03 DMIPS/MHz of the Cortex-A53 I used was actually benchmarked on a RPi 3 which leads to the weakness which is, despite multi-issue improvements over the Cortex-A7, difficulty in instruction scheduling which I have mentioned before. Here is another web site that has the Cortex-A53 at 2.3 DMIPS/MHz while confirming the 2.5 DMIPS/MHz of the Cortex-A9 (official ARM figures?).

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/computer-science/stage-pipeline

ARM can get most customers to upgrade from the Cortex-A9 to the Cortex-A53 because they get similar performance, reduce power and the area of the 64 bit in-order Cortex-A53 is roughly half of the 32 bit OoO Cortex-A9 which makes it cheaper to produce. It is a win, win, win PPA situation by utilizing the advantages of a newer more efficient in-order CPU compared to an older less-efficient OoO CPU. ARM has the customers converted to AArch64 where the resource cost of 64 bit and the fat ISA is hidden. Some Cortex-A9 customers would have been unhappy to upgrade to an AArch64 OoO CPU like the Cortex-A57 (predecessor to Cortex-A72 used in RPi 4) which is about 3 times the area of the Cortex-A9 and 6 times the area of the Cortex-A53. Many customers don't upgrade to the OoO AArch64 CPUs and some not even to the in-order upgrades of the Cortex-A53 which have performance and power improvements but increase area.

Hammer Quote:

ARM can die at Softbank's hands.

From https://www.semianalysis.com/p/arm-changes-business-model-oem-partners


Wow! ARM/Softbank is playing with fire! It looks like they are endangering the empire they worked so hard to build to extract revenge on big customers that blocked the Nvidia acquisition of ARM, ironically due to lack of neutrality concerns. If they go through with those licensing changes, it will have huge ramifications to the computer industry from embedded all the way up to server markets. RISC-V will benefit at the low end and AMD at the high end. My instincts lean toward investing in AMD. There is more margin in high end markets and they have both x86-64 CPUs and GPUs (APUs). The big losers are CPU and GPU OEMs and contract manufacturers like Qualcomm, Nvidia, Broadcom, etc. which are dependent on ARM CPUs and/or do not use ARM GPUs. Some smaller IP providers for SoCs could be wiped out or forced into an acquisition like Imagination Technologies. Some big players like Qualcomm and maybe even Samsung (Apple and Nvidia may have sweetheart ARM licensing deals) could be looking for new CPU architectures but there isn't much available in the mid-performance range embedded market where AArch64 just solidified the position. If the accusations by Qualcomm against ARM/Softbank are true, I recommend against choosing ARM as the next Amiga architecture. Returning to the 68k and developing it looks much better now. It likely wouldn't be as difficult to find business partners and customers with this shattering of the neutral ARM status quo. ARM/Softbank likely could have increased their licensing fees and royalties by 50% boosting their profitability with only grumbling but this is worse, much worse.

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redfox 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 30-Oct-2022 20:55:34
#207 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 2064
From: Canada

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

While "we" armchair analysts continue to discuss what shoulda coulda woulda been done, Jacek Piszczek (aka jacadcaps) is actually getting things done for MorphOS users.

jacadcaps and well done.


redfox


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Hammer 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 31-Oct-2022 0:46:06
#208 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@matthey

Quote:

Wow! ARM/Softbank is playing with fire! It looks like they are endangering the empire they worked so hard to build to extract revenge on big customers that blocked the Nvidia acquisition of ARM, ironically due to lack of neutrality concerns. If they go through with those licensing changes, it will have huge ramifications to the computer industry from embedded all the way up to server markets. RISC-V will benefit at the low end and AMD at the high end. My instincts lean toward investing in AMD. There is more margin in high end markets and they have both x86-64 CPUs and GPUs (APUs). The big losers are CPU and GPU OEMs and contract manufacturers like Qualcomm, Nvidia, Broadcom, etc. which are dependent on ARM CPUs and/or do not use ARM GPUs. Some smaller IP providers for SoCs could be wiped out or forced into an acquisition like Imagination Technologies. Some big players like Qualcomm and maybe even Samsung (Apple and Nvidia may have sweetheart ARM licensing deals) could be looking for new CPU architectures but there isn't much available in the mid-performance range embedded market where AArch64 just solidified the position. If the accusations by Qualcomm against ARM/Softbank are true, I recommend against choosing ARM as the next Amiga architecture. Returning to the 68k and developing it looks much better now. It likely wouldn't be as difficult to find business partners and customers with this shattering of the neutral ARM status quo. ARM/Softbank likely could have increased their licensing fees and royalties by 50% boosting their profitability with only grumbling but this is worse, much worse.

FYI, Softbank didn't build the ARM's semi-custom embedded and mobile markets.

Nvidia has VILW based ARMv8 clone with project Denver/Denver 2/Carmel.

Imagination Technologies has RISC V-based IMG RTXM-2200.

There are reasons for the RISC-V movement and Softbank is a problem.

I'll treat RPi like a throw-away device like any other ARM-based smartphone.

----
Quote:

ARM knows how to market. The Cortex-A53 indeed has improvements like a lower latency L2, larger TLB cache and better branch prediction (along with lower branch mis-predict penalty of 7 cycles vs 12 cycles of Cortex-A9).

L2 latency
Cortex-A53 15 cycles
Cortex-A9 23 cycles (same as PPC e500v2 core L2 latency in A1222)

The in-order multi-issue rate is improved over the Coretex-A7 which it is based on. The Cortex-A53 with AArch64 has more standard and better integrated units, resources and features than the older more modular a la cart cores which boosts performance but requires more area/transistors. This is offset by upgrading customers from the old OoO 32 bit Cortex-A9 to the new in-order 64 bit Cortex-A53. The Cortex-A53 improvements and newer fab processes which it targets help close the performance gap (ARM sometimes deceptively compares their newer designs using a newer process to their older designs using an older process). The result is that newer chips with the Cortex-A53 are roughly the same integer performance as older Cortex-A9 chips while the Cortex-A53 has an advantage for non-integer workloads due to reduced cache latencies. The 2.03 DMIPS/MHz of the Cortex-A53 I used was actually benchmarked on a RPi 3 which leads to the weakness which is, despite multi-issue improvements over the Cortex-A7, difficulty in instruction scheduling which I have mentioned before. Here is another web site that has the Cortex-A53 at 2.3 DMIPS/MHz while confirming the 2.5 DMIPS/MHz of the Cortex-A9 (official ARM figures?).

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/computer-science/stage-pipeline

ARM can get most customers to upgrade from the Cortex-A9 to the Cortex-A53 because they get similar performance, reduce power and the area of the 64 bit in-order Cortex-A53 is roughly half of the 32 bit OoO Cortex-A9 which makes it cheaper to produce. It is a win, win, win PPA situation by utilizing the advantages of a newer more efficient in-order CPU compared to an older less-efficient OoO CPU. ARM has the customers converted to AArch64 where the resource cost of 64 bit and the fat ISA is hidden. Some Cortex-A9 customers would have been unhappy to upgrade to an AArch64 OoO CPU like the Cortex-A57 (predecessor to Cortex-A72 used in RPi 4) which is about 3 times the area of the Cortex-A9 and 6 times the area of the Cortex-A53. Many customers don't upgrade to the OoO AArch64 CPUs and some not even to the in-order upgrades of the Cortex-A53 which have performance and power improvements but increase area.

IPC claims are based on simple benchmarks.

3DMarks Ice Storm Physics benchmarks
https://www.anandtech.com/Show/Index/6974?cPage=11&all=False&sort=0&page=4&slug=amd-kabini-review



For baseline reference, AMD A4-5000 has quad-core Jaguar @ 1.5 Ghz. Physics Score: 16,812

Qualcomm Snapdragon 600's Krait 300 ARM clone CPU has 11 stages integer pipeline with 3-way decode and 4-way out-of-order speculative issue superscalar execution.

Qualcomm Snapdragon 600 has four cores Krait 300 ARMv7-A clone CPU.

Motorola Nexus 6's quad-core 2.7 GHz Krait 450 Physics Score: 18,010

https://hothardware.com/reviews/huawei-mate-8-review?page=6
Ice Storm Physics scores are in blue bars.


Huawei Mate 8's HiSilicon's Kirin 950 is an octal-core chip with four ARM A72 cores at 2.3GHz and four ARM A53 cores at 1.8GHz. Physics Score: 14,566

Huawei P8 lite 7201 has octa-core 1.2 GHz Cortex-A53, Physics Score: 7407

Samsung Galaxy S6 has Octa-core (4x2.1 GHz Cortex-A57 & 4x1.5 GHz Cortex-A53) Physics Score: 16,835


AMD A4-5200 quad-core Jaguar @ 2.0 Ghz Physics Score: 24,528


ASUS Zenfone 2 has Quad-core Intel Atom Z3580 @ 2.3 GHz (4 GB RAM model) or Quad-core Intel Atom Z3580 @ 1.8 GHz (2 GB RAM model) Physics Score: ~20,767


Game physics is within Amiga's gaming majority context.

Last edited by Hammer on 31-Oct-2022 at 02:10 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 31-Oct-2022 at 02:08 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 31-Oct-2022 at 02:05 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 31-Oct-2022 at 02:00 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 31-Oct-2022 at 01:58 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 31-Oct-2022 at 12:50 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 31-Oct-2022 at 12:48 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 31-Oct-2022 at 12:48 AM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 31-Oct-2022 6:21:19
#209 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@V8

Quote:

V8 wrote:
@agami

Quote:
$4M is what I have extracted based on my interactions. Ben claims $10M.


Nonsense. The costs are virtually zero. Hyperion has never paid any of their developers
and that is why they, the developers, are no longer developing.

4M is possibly the amount of money that Ben has pocketed personally by providing "legal services" to hyperion.
Funny that, how almost all revenue is just transferred straight into Ben's pocket.

Just like how Trevor's money in AENv1 was also transferred straight into Ben's pocket.
Trevor's mistake was to not take Ben to court and instead ask for a "free OS4 licence for all my platforms going forward". To which Ben replied "Sure, and I will just never develop OS4 for Tibor. Checkmate."
This is why you never ever under any circumstances sign a document with Ben.

That's a really nice point. How did Ben calculated those $4M if OS4 developers weren't paid?

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 31-Oct-2022 6:26:57
#210 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

@cdimauro

Friend cdimauro,

4m is the valuation in Amigacoins.

Thanks for your submission,
/mega

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cdimauro 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 31-Oct-2022 6:30:44
#211 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@Hammer

You think the ARM or X86 will huge advantage, but they always problem of running something none native on a host, and hardware looks impressive on paper, the emulation environment is not exposing the hardware to its guest os & hw, essential what this means is that accurately support for host os is none existent in guest OS.

it does not matter what GL specification your host has, It’s not used.

When it comes to emulation what put in is not the same as what you get out, its like when you do money exchange at the airport.

you have 100$ you exchange it to £, and back to $, and etch time you do that you end up little less, because your paying a fee.

$ to $ is the same, exchange fee is % of whatever you put in..
let’s say I put in 2Ghz in and get 1Ghz back.

in this case fee depends on how different the host OS/HW is to its guest OS/HW, and if the guest is able to take direct advantage of host hardware, which it cannot; due to lack of drivers on the guest OS.

without that you, end up with framebuffers, and that’s exactly what most emulators have, this means copying or converting it before displaying it. LE modes are somewhat supported on AmigaOS, so in case of LE mode its simple copy, yet CPU cycles spent on copying does increases by resolution, yes of course depending emulator, presenting FB, can be slightly accelerated for example scaling to the host window of the emulator. In case you’re dealing with BE, you need to convert it to LE before presenting it, that operation is bit more costly, its small fee per pixel, and scales with depth, and resolution, for example 15bit/16bit is faster to convert then 32bit, with its double amount of data, 320x250 (64000 pixels) vs 640x480 (307200 pixels), the larger the resolution the worst it gets. When 4080/4K/8K we expect all resolutions LE, no graphics made today are BE that I know of, anyhow most interesting stuff is maybe 15bit/BE, of course many demos and games that are system friendly support different resolutions.

In short, emulation virtualization and guest driver support need major makeover to make any host hardware specifications meaningful, when comes to direct comparison.

In short, you do know nothing about the real emulation status about offloading stuff to the host system.

2D graphics is almost fully hardware accelerated (but it was partially done before it) with the current WiP WinUAE: http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=1567624&postcount=1
- uaegfx all Picasso96 functions are now fully "hardware accelerated" (uses host side native code), excluding line draw. Previously some functions only supported common minterms/mask operations, unsupported operations were handled by Picasso96 software. Minterms that read and invert destination do not anymore invert unused/alpha bits if mode has them (15bit/32bit). Always use RGBFormat parameter in D7 if available, instead of RenderInfo RGBFormat variable.

Whereas 3D/OpenGL was already hardware accelerated from very long time: http://aminet.net/package/driver/video/Wazp3D
Inside Aros & WinUAE & Morphos can also render in hardware

Plus:
- with the Blitter immediate you can instantly offload the most massive graphic operations to the host (CPU, in this case);
- using shared folders all I/O operations are offloaded to the host;
- using bsdsocket.library all network operations are offloaded to the host.

In general, you can offload whatever you want to the host by proving a proper library and/or device.

So, if something is missing it isn't because it's impossible but only because someone hasn't yet done it.

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cdimauro 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 31-Oct-2022 6:31:59
#212 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Quote:

MEGA_RJ_MICAL wrote:
@cdimauro

Friend cdimauro,

4m is the valuation in Amigacoins.

Thanks for your submission,
/mega

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cdimauro 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 31-Oct-2022 6:37:08
#213 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote:
Hammer Quote:

ARM can die at Softbank's hands.

From https://www.semianalysis.com/p/arm-changes-business-model-oem-partners


Wow! ARM/Softbank is playing with fire! It looks like they are endangering the empire they worked so hard to build to extract revenge on big customers that blocked the Nvidia acquisition of ARM, ironically due to lack of neutrality concerns. If they go through with those licensing changes, it will have huge ramifications to the computer industry from embedded all the way up to server markets. RISC-V will benefit at the low end and AMD at the high end. My instincts lean toward investing in AMD. There is more margin in high end markets and they have both x86-64 CPUs and GPUs (APUs). The big losers are CPU and GPU OEMs and contract manufacturers like Qualcomm, Nvidia, Broadcom, etc. which are dependent on ARM CPUs and/or do not use ARM GPUs. Some smaller IP providers for SoCs could be wiped out or forced into an acquisition like Imagination Technologies. Some big players like Qualcomm and maybe even Samsung (Apple and Nvidia may have sweetheart ARM licensing deals) could be looking for new CPU architectures but there isn't much available in the mid-performance range embedded market where AArch64 just solidified the position. If the accusations by Qualcomm against ARM/Softbank are true, I recommend against choosing ARM as the next Amiga architecture. Returning to the 68k and developing it looks much better now. It likely wouldn't be as difficult to find business partners and customers with this shattering of the neutral ARM status quo. ARM/Softbank likely could have increased their licensing fees and royalties by 50% boosting their profitability with only grumbling but this is worse, much worse.

I fully agree. ARM got crazy and actually it's severely hurting its business with this big change in the model.

RISC-V will receive a huge boost and a lot of companies embraces it soon.

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agami 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 31-Oct-2022 7:32:16
#214 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1637
From: Melbourne, Australia

@cdimauro

Quote:
So, if something is missing it isn't because it's impossible but only because someone hasn't yet done it.

I agree.

Last edited by agami on 31-Oct-2022 at 07:32 AM.

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Bosanac 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 31-Oct-2022 7:50:53
#215 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-May-2022
Posts: 255
From: Unknown

Quote:
In addition calling Qualcomm's latest claims "riddled with inaccuracies," Arm said via email to Fierce Electronics Friday that its original claim against Qualcomm filed in early September is “aimed at protecting the Arm ecosystem and partners who rely on our intellectual property and innovative designs. Qualcomm has violated the terms of the Nuvia license agreement and yet it continues to use the technology, unlicensed. Arm is seeking to enforce Qualcomm’s obligation to destroy and top using the Nuvia designs that were derived from Arm’s technology.”


https://www.fierceelectronics.com/sensors/arm-qualcomm-legal-battle-suggests-oems-need-arm-ip-licenses-not-chip-firms

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cdimauro 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 31-Oct-2022 8:33:37
#216 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@agami

Quote:

agami wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
So, if something is missing it isn't because it's impossible but only because someone hasn't yet done it.

I agree.

The sentence had a specific, well defined, context.

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Hypex 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 31-Oct-2022 12:56:11
#217 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@agami

Quote:
He just has this hang-up about "the PC" as the dirty term it was from the '80s and '90s, and is attempting to speak to "his peeps" who live with a similar sentiment.


Well, I'm probably the same kind of way. I have my Amiga machines. And I have a PC laptop which mostly runs Linux and some other PC machines collecting dust. So I suppose I like the separation and machines dedicated to a purpose. I don't like the idea of another OS I have to reboot into and I've never seen a VM work with a simple partition.

Quote:
He even prefaced it with the adjective "silly" because he knows how anachronistic it's going to sound. He couldn't date himself more than if he had uttered "What I don't want to see, and it might sound silly, I don't want to see women wearing pants." And then a bunch of misogynists label him a "legend" in some online forum.


Ha! All we need is a Trevor voice emulator and we can redo the scene,

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Good ol' PC bashing used to have some merit behind it, and Apple carried the last waning flickers of that torch into the early 2000s with their "I'm a Mac and I'm a PC" series of ads. But the end came not just because Apple switched to intel, but because the computing landscape was becoming more diverse than just Mac and PC, Desktop and Laptop.


I didn't see it as PC bashing. Apple pretty much adopted a can't beat them, join them strategy, well until now. But Macs were still expensive after the Intel switch, even though people reckoned PowerPC made it expensive, but I didn't see them get cheap just because.

Quote:
He decides to spare Hyperion the cost of porting AmigaOS 4 to x86, and instead pass on that cost to a small percentage of the remaining Amiga enthusiasts, by launching the cost-inefficient, dubiously venerable "What is X" AmigaOne X1000 with Xena and Xorro.


Hyperion would charge a large fee for porting it.

The X1000 wasn't too bad back then. Not as good on price as the XE when comparing price to performance. But by the time the X1000 came out there was nothing to compare it too directly. Before it came out I thought a 1.8 Ghz dual core would be cool. By the time it came out 1,8 Ghz didn't look so cool any more.

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At the time I thought it was because Hyperion were legally bound to have AmigaOS 4 on PowerPC, but many years later Ben assured me they had looked into porting to x86 and not pursued it because of the cost. Especially since to cost of the PowerPC development had not yet been recouped.


Yet they charge to port to each new platform and each platform so far is still PowerPC.

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So tell me again why it shouldn't/couldn't be ported to x86.


The obvious reason to me is it wouldn't be practical because the effort and cost to do so would outweigh any benefit. Hyperion may request an upfront fee of $100,000, just as a guess. There would need to be a hardware target so it's safe to assume either a stock of existing motherboards or a limited run would be produced. Just because it's "x86" doesn't mean it work on any common "x64" board.

As it stands, the end result would likely be a crippled 32 bit OS running on a 64 bit CPU, with no proper memory protection or support for threads. It would have no direct support for any PPC apps, OS4 or otherwise. And it would have no direct support for running 68K apps either. Any 68K and PPC emulation would need to be sandboxed to run in it's own ecosystem. So it would be unlikely to support ARexx that needs direct integration or any other component that's still 68K. Since it would take considerable effort emulating BE code on a LE OS. Unless they used a customised x86 BE compiler.

Web browsers would be easier to port. But it would still be an old version. At least it could run faster,

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Hypex 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 31-Oct-2022 13:08:40
#218 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@kolla

Quote:
Er… what? The “community” certainly has not embraced it as “the next Amiga” - it’s just yet another old Amiga, a weird one, with a few neat extras, but strong limitations (closed hardware, lacking documentation, no room for third party expansions etc). If the community really had embraced it, you would not see so much activity with other products and solutions.


At both Amiga clubs I attend the Vampire in accelerator or stand alone format has seen lots of attention. And they have embraced it as the next step in Amiga evolution. I am the odd one out for not buying into it. In fact, though I usually take my A4000 to meetings, I would be the "weird" one for being an AmigaOne person and having a couple around the house. So my local Amiga community have certainly embraced it at least.

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Hypex 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 31-Oct-2022 13:38:02
#219 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Karlos

Quote:
It's clear that as it stands it wouldn't be stellar on a basic 68020 under AGA, however that's not the target in this case. Think UAE and Umilator, high end 68K and FPGA type solutions.


What I mean is, not the resulting speed of binary execution, but needing to open up libraries and then the interfaces. That's double the work. 68K didn't have any complicated interfaces.

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Featurewise OS4 interfaces are only structures with function pointers and some syntactical sugar to hide the Self reference.


They take the place of the jump table obviously but they are extra work. Library opening is already some work in Amiga code since it needs a lot of them. There is still no function call that can open multiple libraries, interfaces and store all the pointers.

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Look at the state of the art in JIT for each to see why this isn't the case. And don't forget, 68K CLR also runs unmodified on real 68K, which is part of the fundamental proposition.


The 68K did stop production so should be easy enough for a newer CPU to emulate. OTOH, PowerPC hasn't seen mass production since around 2005 and not even a Ryzen can run rings about it with emulation yet. But, 68K only has 16 main registers to deal with. PPC has 32 with FPU as well and a real PowerPC has vectors on top, though they aren't really needed.

But, as byte code, or word code, I think PPC would make sense. Not as a JIT, but at load time, translating to host CPU on load. It's going to be needed if they shift CPU and want an efficient way of executing current apps.

Quote:
'scuse the lazy quoting style but this forum software isn't the best mobile experience


No forum software is good on any mobile in my experience. I couldn't reply on it. I refuse to even do email on it.

Last edited by Hypex on 31-Oct-2022 at 01:48 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 31-Oct-2022 14:34:01
#220 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@OlafS25

Quote:
I thought Amithlon would translate code but not create new binaries? Similar to what Michal now plans with emu68 on ARM


Not by itself. A special x86 compiler that could compile Amiga sources as x86 binaries. So it wasn't just the JIT but Amiga programs could run in x86 native code while the OS was emulated.

In theory all the OS components except the core components like Kickstart and kernel could be recompiled and it would have been as close to x86 as AmigaOS could have got. But Hagge & Partner didn't do that despite having sources. Instead they just ripped it off.

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And yes transparent integration of system conform developed software like Petunia is not there, either you compile it for X86 or start UAE. Something like Petunia would have been nice on X86 and I even found such a project but it was not finished. Like always lack of motivated developers doing it for fun. MorphOS (and AmigaOS) has advantages there because they were financially supported (at least for some time). That helps a lot. Today I think it is less important to get it. People who use AmigaOS or MorphOS will not change platform anyway. And the people mostly interested in traditional amigas (68k) will not use it anyway. And the "outsiders" are not interested in 68k anyway. More important will be the merge between Aros and Linux. That will offer new opportunities.


Petunia is fine tuned to run within OS4. Hard to compare with it. Since the 68K code it translates is running on the same endian,

I don't think these people would change either. Except those who are more interested in a working OS than what's under the hood.

Right now the Arix project looks like the closest to a merge of Aros and Linux. The newer one. That can compile Amiga sources to run natively on Linux.

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