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      /  Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year! :-)
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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 23-Oct-2022 0:04:41
#81 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

But how good or bad was the AGA chipset in 1992/1993?
















/m!

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Hammer 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 23-Oct-2022 1:20:09
#82 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
@agami

it is a kind of "nerd" comment... besides what does he mean with PC? INTEL/AMD based? Macs f.e. migrate now to ARM. A Mac is also a "PC". And even if he thinks of INTEL/AMD, there is no reason. If you want very powerful hardware you need a PC. And AmigaOS is (for most people) in competition with other platforms so you have a outdated OS competing on outdated hardware. If it would run on same hardware it would be at least there a fair competition

Apple Mac is referred to as a Mac i.e. Macintosh. "PC" is IBM's label.

Over time, the "PC" label has displaced the "microcomputer" category.

A "PC" can be a cloud-based remote desktop server that serves multiple users like a mainframe and there's nothing "personal" with this role.

Last edited by Hammer on 24-Oct-2022 at 05:15 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 24-Oct-2022 at 05:11 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 23-Oct-2022 1:29:55
#83 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@cdimauro

Quote:
Actually Emu68 depends on the Amiga chipset, so that's why PiStorm is needed.

Rewriting it using only the host system would require a lot of work, because you have to write/rewrite a lot of stuff cheating the original ROMs to let the 68k code think that the chipset is still there (partially: enough for the scope).

Emu68 can boot without Amiga's chipset. i.e. use a modified Kickstart ROM (aros-raspi-m68k-rom.elf) or use "Emu68-Raspi" instead of Emu68-Pistorm builds.

"Emu68-Raspi" build will boot without the Amiga hardware, hence it's effectively DraCo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVWKQoTBoLI
RasPi 400 booting Emu68 and a path tracer... without Amiga hardware.

Normal Amiga Kickstart ROMs have hardware test routines.

DraCo has the two CIA chips. DraCo's second ROM could be there to patch code in the standard Kickstart 3.1 ROM on initialization.

Last edited by Hammer on 23-Oct-2022 at 01:44 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 23-Oct-2022 at 01:42 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 23-Oct-2022 at 01:39 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 23-Oct-2022 at 01:34 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 23-Oct-2022 at 01:33 AM.

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agami 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 23-Oct-2022 2:27:50
#84 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1637
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Hypex

Quote:
But, the reason OS4 shouldn't run on a PC, is because it technically cannot as it is. OS4 is a big endian OS so it cannot naturally run natively as is...

Sure, but that is not why Trev made that comment.

He just has this hang-up about "the PC" as the dirty term it was from the '80s and '90s, and is attempting to speak to "his peeps" who live with a similar sentiment.

He even prefaced it with the adjective "silly" because he knows how anachronistic it's going to sound. He couldn't date himself more than if he had uttered "What I don't want to see, and it might sound silly, I don't want to see women wearing pants." And then a bunch of misogynists label him a "legend" in some online forum.

Good ol' PC bashing used to have some merit behind it, and Apple carried the last waning flickers of that torch into the early 2000s with their "I'm a Mac and I'm a PC" series of ads. But the end came not just because Apple switched to intel, but because the computing landscape was becoming more diverse than just Mac and PC, Desktop and Laptop.

Cloud services were on the rise, the pocket computer era was inaugurated with launch of the iPhone, Windows 7 was actually a decent OS, then came tablets, then the major console makers switched to x86 APUs, and what does our stuck-in-the-past Trev decide to do?
He decides to spare Hyperion the cost of porting AmigaOS 4 to x86, and instead pass on that cost to a small percentage of the remaining Amiga enthusiasts, by launching the cost-inefficient, dubiously venerable "What is X" AmigaOne X1000 with Xena and Xorro.

At the time I thought it was because Hyperion were legally bound to have AmigaOS 4 on PowerPC, but many years later Ben assured me they had looked into porting to x86 and not pursued it because of the cost. Especially since to cost of the PowerPC development had not yet been recouped.

So tell me again why it shouldn't/couldn't be ported to x86.

Last edited by agami on 23-Oct-2022 at 03:31 AM.
Last edited by agami on 23-Oct-2022 at 03:25 AM.

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agami 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 23-Oct-2022 3:23:03
#85 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1637
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Karlos

Quote:
Karlos wrote:
@Hypex

Quote:
So, my point is, OS4 could be ported to ARM, then ten years later it too falls out of favour. Then we have the same people that said PPC was a mistake saying, oh porting to ARM was a mistake. Now Apple have gone back to Intel again. Why didn't they go x86 with OS4 like we said they should?

Of course, if all your userland OS components were ported to some 68K CLR it could run hosted on any number of CPU architectures for which extremely mature 68K JIT already exists and on whatever high end real 68K still exists / FPGA. All you ever need to port for a new CPU are some bootstrapping kernel/HAL/JIT layer and keep everything else inside the JIT.

Virtualize your platform and run it on whatever you want.

I'm clicking on the VOTE UP button for this post and nothing his happening.

Oh wait, there is no VOTE UP button. Why is there no VOTE UP button?!?!

Last edited by agami on 23-Oct-2022 at 03:27 AM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 23-Oct-2022 6:28:07
#86 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
Actually Emu68 depends on the Amiga chipset, so that's why PiStorm is needed.

Rewriting it using only the host system would require a lot of work, because you have to write/rewrite a lot of stuff cheating the original ROMs to let the 68k code think that the chipset is still there (partially: enough for the scope).

Emu68 can boot without Amiga's chipset. i.e. use a modified Kickstart ROM (aros-raspi-m68k-rom.elf) or use "Emu68-Raspi" instead of Emu68-Pistorm builds.

"Emu68-Raspi" build will boot without the Amiga hardware, hence it's effectively DraCo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVWKQoTBoLI
RasPi 400 booting Emu68 and a path tracer... without Amiga hardware.

Normal Amiga Kickstart ROMs have hardware test routines.

DraCo has the two CIA chips. DraCo's second ROM could be there to patch code in the standard Kickstart 3.1 ROM on initialization.

OK, then it's more or less the same.

Patching the ROM is a good trick, but it binds you on that specific ROM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 23-Oct-2022 6:36:57
#87 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@agami

Quote:

agami wrote:
@Hypex

Quote:
But, the reason OS4 shouldn't run on a PC, is because it technically cannot as it is. OS4 is a big endian OS so it cannot naturally run natively as is...

Sure, but that is not why Trev made that comment.

He just has this hang-up about "the PC" as the dirty term it was from the '80s and '90s, and is attempting to speak to "his peeps" who live with a similar sentiment.

He even prefaced it with the adjective "silly" because he knows how anachronistic it's going to sound. He couldn't date himself more than if he had uttered "What I don't want to see, and it might sound silly, I don't want to see women wearing pants." And then a bunch of misogynists label him a "legend" in some online forum.

Same feeling. It looks like that he wants to be seen as the idol of the die-hard "Intel-outside" Amiga fanatics.

Trevor had/has no role on the Amiga history and he cannot pretend to be someone else by just telling a chat-up line.
Quote:
Cloud services were on the rise, the pocket computer era was inaugurated with launch of the iPhone, Windows 7 was actually a decent OS, then came tablets, then the major console makers switched to x86 APUs, and what does our stuck-in-the-past Trev decide to do?
He decides to spare Hyperion the cost of porting AmigaOS 4 to x86, and instead pass on that cost to a small percentage of the remaining Amiga enthusiasts, by launching the cost-inefficient, dubiously venerable "What is X" AmigaOne X1000 with Xena and Xorro.

This is part of the same propaganda: trying to resemble the Amiga when that stuff has nothing to do with it. In fact, those are completely useless technologies which didn't helped at all to offload the CPU from heavy tasks.
Quote:
So tell me again why it shouldn't/couldn't be ported to x86.

Fanaticism, lack of funds, or... both.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 23-Oct-2022 8:46:38
#88 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Hemm. Maybe we are hypocrite’s, why it counted back then, but not now, well first of all back then Commodore was market leader, with C64, and needed to stay ahead of competition.

Today, it’s a nostalgic nitche market, we don’t have multi core support, we not 64bit OS, and OS has so many security holes built in, its almost impossible not to get hacked. Even commodore made it possible to change keycodes as you typed, in the commodity API. Now we see OS with a lot more security features getting hacked by replacing keyboard drivers or JS scripts. It makes little or no sense to try to become a major commercial OS. Without first plugging all holes. And catching up on all features.

2en point what is beyond nitche market really, bunch of nostalgic idiots giving software away for free, well your not going to become big by doing that, funding is big part why, major OS stay at top, and smaller once are at the bottom.

What market exist we tap into, well most markets are filled with companies specialized for network, printer, phones, and etc.. we are already too late. Amiga can bring nothing to anyone that’s already there. Easy of use will go away as soon as you’re trying to do everything… we need to find some others are doing poorly, but it be really hard to stay on top that, too many sharks in the water.

For desktop, unless you can run exactly the same application as MS, you just not going to compete, in office space. With patches and security upgrades, and virus protection, firewalls infra structure, we be easy targets, let not forget easy filesharing, nor in the gaming market, not by simply porting over 10/15-year-old games.

Lucky for oss, we are a tiny market little interest from outsiders, but we are not immune to web sites being hacked, or people lessening in on the communication. Kind silly but lot of hacking happing by email this day’s.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Oct-2022 at 08:54 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Oct-2022 at 08:48 AM.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 23-Oct-2022 9:11:23
#89 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Today, it’s a nostalgic nitche market



I think you meant Nietzsche market.
THUS SPOKE ZORRAMTHUSTRA!!!!!!!!



/mega

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Karlos 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 23-Oct-2022 9:25:35
#90 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4394
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

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Karlos 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 23-Oct-2022 17:10:37
#91 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4394
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Kronos

Quote:

Kronos wrote:
@Karlos

See that is (another) problem with "68k for the future", it is just as fractured as NG. I point out the utter nonsense of an 68k ASIC and you hook into it talking bout your virtual 68k-ABI.


Where's the nonsense? It already exists in a fashion: System friendly 3.x applications tend to run "just fine" on real Amigas, FPGAs, UAE, OS4 and MorphOS. Not just applications, either. Libraries and devices too. All it lacks is a formal specification that can be put in place and grown.


Quote:
Do I know the reality of how fast that is? I switched from an AthlonXP1700(1.4GHz) running Amithon to a 600MHz Peg1 and "speed" for sure wasn't a selling point.


One of us is either unlucky, going senile or just outright lying. I ran on a similar Althlon XP model at the time and the performance was blazing fast. I had code compiled for both 68K and PPC native and as mentioned before, it was not difficult to get optimised 68K code on amithlon running faster than native code on the G4. Especially and unsurprisingly for anything IO bound but equally for compute bound too.

Amithlon was a total PITA to configure. Perhaps your configuration didn't perform optimally if it was outperformed by a G3 pegasos.

Quote:
The fact that PPC is dead and failed to bring on the glorious return of the Amiga does not mean hitching ourselves to another dead architecture (emulated in SW, emulated in HW or as real HW) will succeed in that achieving that daydream.


This isn't about the glorious return of the platform and never was. You must think I'm insane to believe otherwise. I'm not here to steal your PPC and drub you for wanting to stick with it as it sinks into irrelevancy. My interest is in having a unified reference platform to build software against and preferably having a compile once, run anywhere distribution mechanism.

That said, I'd love it if a modern amithlon type solution existed as part of the above reference platform.

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Hypex 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 24-Oct-2022 3:54:31
#92 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Kronos

Quote:
Sure initial hype is big and so is demand, but everybody who might be a costumer either already has one or is in line.


Of course, like every other alternate board providing another Amiga solution, it isn't meant to compete with a PC on performance or price.

Quote:
Once that demand is satisfied sales will dwindle, new SW won't get released as frequent and in few years it will be at the same point as NG. Only with much weaker HW and a userbase even more disconnected from reality.


For Vampire it's getting lots of games. Some would be optimised ports. Productivity would be next in line.

In some ways the Vampire has succeeded where the the AmigaOne has failed as the next Amiga replacement. Despite the time difference being even worse and it coming about 20 years after the Amiga the Amiga community have embraced it as the next Amiga.

From time to time read I hear people who want to use it as the "daily driver" as they call it, browsing the net and going on Facebook. Well, I can hardly do that on my X1000, and not just because it's too slow for Facebook. So I think it's totally unrealistic at this point for the Vampire to be used as both an Amiga and AmigaOne replacement that can be used in place of a "PC".

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Hypex 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 24-Oct-2022 4:42:04
#93 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Rob

Quote:
It's more for just a Blackbird plus CPU and no heatsink than it is for a complete X5000 with OS4 and driver licences.


The prices must have gone up since. So a bare board X5000 which includes OS4 is about $1,868 USD.

A Blackboard with CPU and fan is $2,922 USD. For some reason the bundle board with CPU is more expensive than buying parts alone. And they don't mention RAM. It's unclear to me what heatsink it needs. The FAQ is short and doesn't mention this. I understand experts buy these servers but still the info should be more clear. I can't even see what speed the CPU is.

Okay, so we have the X5000 follow up then. Could call it the X9000 with a POWER9. Unless the proposed laptop is cheaper.

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kolla 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 24-Oct-2022 4:56:11
#94 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2859
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:

In some ways the Vampire has succeeded where the the AmigaOne has failed as the next Amiga replacement. Despite the time difference being even worse and it coming about 20 years after the Amiga the Amiga community have embraced it as the next Amiga.


Er… what? The “community” certainly has not embraced it as “the next Amiga” - it’s just yet another old Amiga, a weird one, with a few neat extras, but strong limitations (closed hardware, lacking documentation, no room for third party expansions etc). If the community really had embraced it, you would not see so much activity with other products and solutions.

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Hypex 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 24-Oct-2022 5:07:45
#95 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Karlos

Quote:
Of course, if all your userland OS components were ported to some 68K CLR it could run hosted on any number of CPU architectures for which extremely mature 68K JIT already exists and on whatever high end real 68K still exists / FPGA. All you ever need to port for a new CPU are some bootstrapping kernel/HAL/JIT layer and keep everything else inside the JIT.


68K would be base accepted CPU code that needs to run on every thing. But would OS4 code backported to 68K work well? The 68K code would be made more complicated as it would then have all these interfaces opening along with libraries. And 68K is a good way to get away from those since on OS4 there are shortcuts for 68K code so it doesn't need to deal with it directly.

I thought PPC code would be better to base some CLR on as it's simple compared to 68K. 68K being CISC has codes of variable sizes. PPC being RISC means each code is one length and most codes, like Amiga copper codes, are 16 bit instruction and 16 bit data so easier to work with.

The idea has been put to use since Amithlon, which was in existence while OS4 was still WIP. I recall when Amithlon came out Amiga people I knew wanted them to dump the OS4 port and make Amithlon as the official OS4 solution. I disagreed, because Amithlon was an AmigaOS emulator, that didn't update or improve the OS itself. It was a nice idea, but running only OS friendly apps on an old OS that got older, wasn't a via solution to me. The point of OS4 was a native OS and moving it forward. But people can run OS3.2 now in Amithlon and finally have an updated AmigaOS. Still, given a core feature of Amithlon was native x86 apps which so far no UAE has implemented yet, I wonder how x86 native code could actually run under an opposite endian OS. If Amithlon could allow native LE code to run with an emulated BE OS, then perhaps running LE code with a BE OS is actually easy enough to do after all.

But is the opposite still impossible to achieve? A LE OS running BE code? What is AROS doing wrong by failing to do the opposite, run BE code on the LE OS transparently? I thought by now that AROS would have support for native Amithlon binaries on x86. Then eventually support for 68K binaries. But so far I've not not seen any of those happen. Perhaps that's the show stopper.

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Karlos 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 24-Oct-2022 11:43:15
#96 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4394
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Hypex

"But would OS4 code backported to 68K work well? The 68K code would be made more complicated as it would then have all these interfaces opening along with libraries."

It's clear that as it stands it wouldn't be stellar on a basic 68020 under AGA, however that's not the target in this case. Think UAE and Umilator, high end 68K and FPGA type solutions.

Featurewise OS4 interfaces are only structures with function pointers and some syntactical sugar to hide the Self reference.


"I thought PPC code would be better to base some CLR on as it's simple compared to 68K. 68K being CISC has codes of variable sizes. PPC being RISC means each code is one length and most codes, like Amiga copper codes, are 16 bit instruction and 16 bit data so easier to work with."

Look at the state of the art in JIT for each to see why this isn't the case. And don't forget, 68K CLR also runs unmodified on real 68K, which is part of the fundamental proposition.

'scuse the lazy quoting style but this forum software isn't the best mobile experience

Last edited by Karlos on 24-Oct-2022 at 11:48 AM.
Last edited by Karlos on 24-Oct-2022 at 11:46 AM.

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OlafS25 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 24-Oct-2022 12:14:40
#97 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@Hypex

I thought Amithlon would translate code but not create new binaries? Similar to what Michal now plans with emu68 on ARM

And yes transparent integration of system conform developed software like Petunia is not there, either you compile it for X86 or start UAE. Something like Petunia would have been nice on X86 and I even found such a project but it was not finished. Like always lack of motivated developers doing it for fun. MorphOS (and AmigaOS) has advantages there because they were financially supported (at least for some time). That helps a lot. Today I think it is less important to get it. People who use AmigaOS or MorphOS will not change platform anyway. And the people mostly interested in traditional amigas (68k) will not use it anyway. And the "outsiders" are not interested in 68k anyway. More important will be the merge between Aros and Linux. That will offer new opportunities.

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V8 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 24-Oct-2022 12:30:57
#98 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 30-Mar-2022
Posts: 129
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Quote:
But would OS4 code backported to 68K work well?


Who is asking for OS4 SW to be backported to 68k? And why?
Almost all OS4 SW is just quick and dirty ports of open source Linux games and small apps anyway. Though they live in private repos and almost never contribute the changes back upstream or take reviews of their patchsets.
If you want to run Linux SW, why not just run Linux?

If a modern m68, asic or in software, materializes. What OS4 software would anyone in that market be interested in instead of just porting the original linux sw from scratch?

Is there really any ppc os4 software out there that the community cares about or wants to keep?
I think not. Any and all amiga software that people care about are m68k.

Last edited by V8 on 24-Oct-2022 at 12:34 PM.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 24-Oct-2022 12:49:28
#99 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Quote:

V8 wrote:
@Hypex

Quote:
But would OS4 code backported to 68K work well?


Who is asking for OS4 SW to be backported to 68k? And why?


Friend V8,

there is great OS4 software out there,
you wouldn't want to deprive future DickinsOS user of such killer apps.



/MEGA!

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agami 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 25-Oct-2022 0:27:11
#100 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1637
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Pagination

I'm wondering if there are numbers that show how many people bother to read the previous page of a multi-page forum thread,

And how many would scroll down to read the last post of the previous page?

You know, there might be something to this

PADDING

Last edited by agami on 25-Oct-2022 at 01:34 AM.

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