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      /  CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
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agami 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 23-Nov-2022 0:17:51
#61 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1156
From: Melbourne, Australia

@BigD

Quote:
BigD wrote:
@agami

Quote:
Just like most Apple users didn't care when Apple moved to x86.

There WAS a group of Mac users that DID care

Never said there wasn't: Hence the qualifier "most".

Last edited by agami on 23-Nov-2022 at 12:51 AM.

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agami 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 23-Nov-2022 0:48:06
#62 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1156
From: Melbourne, Australia

@amigang

Quote:
amigang wrote:
@agami

I kinda disagree, I remember a lot of Amiga games and ports where not done as good as they could be due to lack of development, not due to the underline hardware, was this Commodore fault or the Devs.

Commodore's fault. Just like it was Microsoft's fault for the demise of the Windows Phone Series OS. You can't just release dev tools and expect magically developers will flock to your platform and do a quality job. Developers, much like anyone, need to be incentivized to do great work.
To put it another way, if a crowdfunding campaign on Kickstarter or Indiegogo fails, is it the fault of the campaigner or the crowd?

Quote:
Also when newer tech came like ECS, AGA, Extra RAM ect to Amiga hardware devs would still just work to the lowest market A500, to get the most sales. Was that Commodore fault?

Again, yes. It was in Commodore's best interest do incentivize developers to write software for the updated hardware, which in turn the new software would incentivize more people to upgrade.
Not sure where this Commodore apologetics is coming from since it's well documented that they were delinquent in managing pretty much anything after lucking out with the C64.

Quote:
It was even worst when Dev did phone in rerelease for the AmigaCD32 and still had it as just an A500 game, kinda hurting the image of the CD32 as if thats all it could do. Fault of Commodore or the Devs?

Do I really need to say it for this one? This has Commodore incompetence written all over it. Last ditch effort to save a sinking ship. Commodore was ending, one way or another. They had no hands left to play. A successful CD32 would've meant acquisition instead of bankruptcy, either way the company was done.

Quote:
Xmos, A-EON did port over the software and even made a Xmos Developer Board
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5LLqe62_J8
So they tried, they provided the tools, which I think is always a good thing than not, someone might of done something crazy with it. Some of the stuff that Commodore devs put on original Amiga system they could of never dreamed some of the stuff the Hackers and modder do with it now. Pistorm as an example. So you never know.

Here again you fail to see the point.
If A-Eon had a user feature problem to solve, and they solved it with the XENA, then they would've done the appropriate thing in having hardware in service of software.

What they did is start with HW, and then hoped that somehow the hacking spirit of the '80s computing era would magically materialise around this new HW.
The failure of XENA is entirely the fault of A-EON. If they found and proved an actual purpose for it, then other developers would have as well. As it was, it had no purpose, which is why nothing purposeful materialised from the dev community.

Quote:
Plus I dont think Amiga will ever really take over the mainstream market or be a mainstream computer, unless a billionaire gets involved, so maybe the hackers and modders market is a better market to go after away?

Why is a "take over" of the mainstream market the only goal? If we can't be at the top, then we might as well not exist?

The community has sunken into a depression filled with people making excuses for the obvious failures of others. If we complain too much, then they might remove the excrement we've convinced ourselves is our best guard against starvation?

You can enjoy whatever Amiga or post-Amiga system you have, but you can also recognize and point out the failings; Which is the first step in solving any problem.

Last edited by agami on 23-Nov-2022 at 01:04 AM.
Last edited by agami on 23-Nov-2022 at 01:01 AM.
Last edited by agami on 23-Nov-2022 at 01:00 AM.
Last edited by agami on 23-Nov-2022 at 12:58 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 23-Nov-2022 3:06:56
#63 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4595
From: Australia

@agami

CD32 was released in Q3 1993 when the gaming PC market was shifting towards Doom-style gameplay and complexity that is beyond Wolfenstein 3D.

Nintendo's SuperFX/SuperFX 2 add-ons for SNES were stop-gap solutions before they released N64 (1996). SuperFX 2 is about 68030 @ 50 Mhz levels. SuperFX/SuperFX 2 has official support from Nintendo. Nintendo has 1st party-exclusive game titles as a boat anchor for their platform.

Sony's PS1 (JP Q4 1994, rest of the world H2 1995) was a runaway winner. PS1 has a 33 MIPS CPU and 66 MIPS co-processor.

Motorola couldn't duplicate 68000's market success for 68020/68030, 68040, and 68060.


Quote:

Here again you fail to see the point.
If A-Eon had a user feature problem to solve, and they solved it with the XENA, then they would've done the appropriate thing in having hardware in service of software.

What they did is start with HW, and then hoped that somehow the hacking spirit of the '80s computing era would magically materialise around this new HW.
The failure of XENA is entirely the fault of A-EON. If they found and proved an actual purpose for it, then other developers would have as well. As it was, it had no purpose, which is why nothing purposeful materialised from the dev community.


Raspberry Pi with a 40-pins GPIO solution has a low-cost entry barrier and a community has grown around it. Other Pi clones have GPIO compatibility issues.

Last edited by Hammer on 24-Nov-2022 at 11:04 PM.

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amigang 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 23-Nov-2022 8:40:56
#64 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1905
From: Cheshire, England

@agami

Quote:
Commodore's fault. Just like it was Microsoft's fault for the demise of the Windows Phone Series OS. You can't just release dev tools and expect magically developers will flock to your platform and do a quality job. Developers, much like anyone, need to be incentivized to do great work. To put it another way, if a crowdfunding campaign on Kickstarter or Indiegogo fails, is it the fault of the campaigner or the crowd?


Yes, but devs that did put in the work got the rewards, like ea, cinemaware, team17 and others, the games that pushed the hardware got more success, due to the devs. Look at Batman the video game, Amiga arguably had the best version.

Plus you got to admit there where some pretty bad ports and poorly optimised games which has got to land on the fault of the devs not Commodore.

Quote:
If A-Eon had a user feature problem to solve, and they solved it with the XENA, then they would've done the appropriate thing in having hardware in service of software. What they did is start with HW, and then hoped that somehow the hacking spirit of the '80s computing era would magically materialise around this new HW.


Which is not terrible thinking, the Amiga community does have that hacking modding community, but I do kinda concede it would of perhaps been better to add something different that befitted the platform more.

My gut feeling on xena is that either xmos or another industry wanted a computer with xmos built in but didnít require many computers so maybe a-eon did it to sell a few machines to them or it was so cheap to include and sold / advertised in such a way by xmos that a-eon thought it might be fun to have and it would be another selling point for the x1000. It a shame nothing did come from it, I did a quick look and it looks like xmos chips are mainly used for audio solution.

Quote:
Why is a "take over" of the mainstream market the only goal? If we can't be at the top, then we might as well not exist?

No thatís not what Iím saying at all! Of course there smaller market for the Amiga to go after, hell if we could get to the size of the Pi community it would be something! In fact we have a Pretty healthy retro community itís seems, there more Amiga magazine than ever and Amiga shows seem to be getting popular. A500 mini appears to be successful, and most importantly we are still here seeing the odd new Amiga development happen 30years+ after itís demise. Where not doing to bad.

In fact I think a modest goal of just doubling the size of our current community should be the current goal as itís a realistic goal. I was only pointing out that where already a niche market mainly aimed at Amiga fans, if we want to grow beyond that I feel going after another niche market might be a good way of doing it. Say os4 got ported, Just because os4 can now run on x86 or Arm might not make it much more successful than it currently is, yes I think it would help, as price of entry would be a lot less, and letís face it many are not buying AmigaOne systems for its PPC cpu, there getting because it runs Os4. But aros community has been on x86 and it havenít help them much, saying that brand is important (sadly) so I think os4 would be more successful on x86 but I still think to grow the market it needs to offer something unique maybe.

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SHADES 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 23-Nov-2022 21:31:40
#65 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 777
From: Melbourne

@amigang

Agreed.
With the XMOS, with a decent back plane with fast I/O, and at the right price point, add-ons like this are possible. Heck, lots of stuff is. AGA legacy chipset card run via FPGA for example?

I mean, look at Pi. I know this is a constant thing these days, but it's for good reason.
They made their own custom interface, as well as PCIe and how many hobby projects got made for that.
It's almost a standard now for all other copycat board. "Can I use my Pi Hats, are the GPIO pinouts the same" They basically saw how useful and fun this stuff was and it's now, almost a standard iteslf.
I think it's not unlike the 1200 expansion port or clock port. The stuff they can do!

I just made a small FM transmitter with RDS from a compile on my Pi, just switching those pins at those frequencies. Tiny wire on the GPIO pin so I don't break any laws but that's it.

Apparently there's analogue TV and other stuff you can do too.
I mean, that's the spirit, right there. No boundaries, easy to access, CHEAP.

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agami 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 23-Nov-2022 23:51:39
#66 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1156
From: Melbourne, Australia

@amigang

Quote:
amigang wrote:
@agami

Yes, but devs that did put in the work got the rewards, like ea, cinemaware, team17 and others, the games that pushed the hardware got more success, due to the devs. Look at Batman the video game, Amiga arguably had the best version.

Plus you got to admit there where some pretty bad ports and poorly optimised games which has got to land on the fault of the devs not Commodore.

Sure, but this is the same for any robust platform, which the Amiga platform was in the late '80s and early '90s.

We were specifically talking about whether the fault lies with the platform operator or the developer community.
Only when the platform operator has done everything reasonably possible to prop up the platform, can the responsibility of the platform's success be shifted to the developer community.

How do we determine what is "reasonable"? We can compare to what other platform operators are doing, we could survey the developer community, or we could apply the reasonable person test.

Commodore did not meet their moment, and neither did A-EON.

Quote:
My gut feeling on xena is that either xmos or another industry wanted a computer with xmos built in but didnít require many computers so maybe a-eon did it to sell a few machines to them or it was so cheap to include and sold / advertised in such a way by xmos that a-eon thought it might be fun to have and it would be another selling point for the x1000. It a shame nothing did come from it, I did a quick look and it looks like xmos chips are mainly used for audio solution.

How it came about is not important. How one manages the situation is what matters.
To paraphrase a popular analogy, it doesn't matter how one ends up with the lemons, what matters is the lemonade they make with them. A-EONs lemonade was tepid and had no sugar.

The "If you build it, they will come" approach only applies in a narrow band of situations. Most commonly when the new product or service is 10x better than existing alternatives. The huge feature gap is what generates the momentum. Without that, a vendor must find other ways to generate momentum. The lack of inertia in A-EON HW, and AmigaOS 4 OS + SW, is directly correlated with the momentum of the platform.

Quote:
Say os4 got ported, Just because os4 can now run on x86 or Arm might not make it much more successful than it currently is, yes I think it would help, as price of entry would be a lot less, and letís face it many are not buying AmigaOne systems for its PPC cpu, there getting because it runs Os4. But aros community has been on x86 and it havenít help them much, saying that brand is important (sadly) so I think os4 would be more successful on x86 but I still think to grow the market it needs to offer something unique maybe.

I agree.

Last edited by agami on 23-Nov-2022 at 11:56 PM.
Last edited by agami on 23-Nov-2022 at 11:54 PM.
Last edited by agami on 23-Nov-2022 at 11:52 PM.

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agami 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 24-Nov-2022 0:08:31
#67 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1156
From: Melbourne, Australia

@SHADES

Quote:
SHADES wrote:
@amigang

I mean, look at Pi. I know this is a constant thing these days, but it's for good reason.
They made their own custom interface, as well as PCIe and how many hobby projects got made for that.
It's almost a standard now for all other copycat board. "Can I use my Pi Hats, are the GPIO pinouts the same" They basically saw how useful and fun this stuff was and it's now, almost a standard iteslf.
I think it's not unlike the 1200 expansion port or clock port. The stuff they can do!

I just made a small FM transmitter with RDS from a compile on my Pi, just switching those pins at those frequencies. Tiny wire on the GPIO pin so I don't break any laws but that's it.

Apparently there's analogue TV and other stuff you can do too.
I mean, that's the spirit, right there. No boundaries, easy to access, CHEAP.

Exactly, CHEAP.

The Original Raspberry Pi was released mere months after the A1X1k, so they are the same vintage.
In the 2010s, the hacker/tinkerer was going to gravitate toward a sub-$100 solution, not a $2,000+ solution.

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SHADES 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 24-Nov-2022 1:15:53
#68 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 777
From: Melbourne

@agami

Quote:
Exactly, CHEAP.


That's the big one, cost.
Yep, that's the way we get users to even look in but also, it's got to be useful, worth looking at.
Not just for users.
For developers.
Hardware makers.

To offer just another cheap/closed box, isn't in the spirit although, if it is cheap, it will at least probably sell, just not have much lasting value.
Make it with useful I/O to plug into and expand on, like different kinds of back-planes and well, you have a unique product that's useful, even just by itself, and goes into awesome land when plugged into expand.

I guess, that's my take on that. Cost needs to be first. No one cares in the current iteration. Not worth it.

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agami 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 24-Nov-2022 23:28:42
#69 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1156
From: Melbourne, Australia

@SHADES

Quote:
SHADES wrote:
@agami

That's the big one, cost.
Yep, that's the way we get users to even look in but also, it's got to be useful, worth looking at.
Not just for users.
For developers.
Hardware makers.

To offer just another cheap/closed box, isn't in the spirit although, if it is cheap, it will at least probably sell, just not have much lasting value.
Make it with useful I/O to plug into and expand on, like different kinds of back-planes and well, you have a unique product that's useful, even just by itself, and goes into awesome land when plugged into expand.

I guess, that's my take on that. Cost needs to be first. No one cares in the current iteration. Not worth it.

+1

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